p.1 #1 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
I'm a flash novice, so I've been trying to go through the menus to get the camera (Z8, but also have Zf) and flash (Nissin MG60) setup to do what I want, but I've hit a wall and can't figure out how to get the camera to behave the way I want (or how I assumed it would behave). It's very simple what I want to do (or it would SEEM to be simple). The issue I have is related to an indoor low(er) light scenario where I want to make it as quick and simple as possible to shoot and to keep the background/ambient exposure acceptable to me and then let the flash do what it needs to do in TTL mode to light my subjects/people (and assuming I can raise or lower the flash power via Flash Exposure Compensation).
My Settings / Preferences:
- Camera in Aperture priority
- Want to use on-camera flash in TTL mode indoors where light might be low (will use bounced flash or sometimes a small softbox held by me or an assistant)
- Use Auto ISO to keep the shutter speed acceptable to not get blurry photos of people moving (let's pretend in my case SS 1/100 to 1/125 is OK) and also to not have the background/general scene blurred from camera movement.
- Flash mode in the camera is Fill Flash
- Need to have High Speed Sync available, but mostly for outdoor use, not really applying to this indoor scenario.
- Menu e1 Flash Sync Speed = 1/250 Auto FP
- Menu e2 Flash Shutter Speed = 1/60s
- Menu e3 Exposure Comp for Flash = Background Only (because I'd like to use the camera's normal exposure comp to raise or lower the ambient light when flash is in use).
- Menu e4 Auto Flash ISO Sensitivity Control = Subject and Background
- Auto ISO on, Max Sensitivity = 6400, Max Sensitivity with Flash = 6400, Minimum Shutter Speed = 1/30s
My flash and wireless controller:
Nissin MG60 flash with the Nissin Air 10S controller
How I 'normally' shoot:
I almost always shoot WITHOUT flash (available light only) in Aperture priority with Auto ISO on with my preferred min shutter speed and max ISO
Hopefully that's enough info for you (I can answer question to fill in more detail if needed).
The problem I'm having:
With the camera set as mentioned above, I've noticed that Auto ISO is not raising the ISO, so the background/ambient exposure is too dark, but the flash exposure is OK.
I noticed that if I manually raise the ISO (with Auto ISO still on) to a max number I'm willing to live with (let's say 3200 - and I'm not talking about the 'max sensitivity with flash' in the auto ISO settings, I'm talking about pressing the ISO button and setting it to 3200 for example)..the background is then OK, but of course I don't want to be stuck with that higher ISO for every shot if I don't need that high of an ISO to get the background exposed well enough.
Here's an example. I take a test shot and see the flash exposure is OK, but the background not far from the subject is underexposed and when I check the info on that photo, I see the camera used the minimum flash shutter speed I had set in the menu (1/60) and the ISO was at the base (64). If I change the aperture, still nothing changes...the aperture changed of course but the camera is still using ISO 64 and shutter speed 1/60. If I dial in +1 exposure comp (not flash exposure comp), again the camera is still using the same SS and ISO and the exposure still looks unchanged. If I change the flash exposure comp, I do see the exposure change but it's just as a result of the stronger flash power...but again, the camera used the SAME SS and ISO (1/60 and ISO 64).
What am I missing here? :-) Isn't there a way to use TTL flash, Aperture priority, exposure comp to control the ambient exposure, flash exposure comp to control flash power and then auto ISO to help where needed?
Thanks! I greatly appreciate any Nikon flash expert help.
P.S. The camera, flash and controller all have the latest firmware updates. Also remember that Nikon and Nissin announced back in 2022 a collaboration so that Nikon shares more info with Nissin and Profoto so their flashes are more compatible with Nikon mirrorless cameras. So, I don't think this is a compatibility issue, but more of a 'that's just how Nikon cameras behave' and I need to figure out how to do this for my scenario or get as close I can to have it behave the way I want for my scenario of indoor lower light shooting with flash.
p.1 #2 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
I don't have a Nissin flash, but here is my quick take. Av mode and Auto ISO are great for fill flash, but if the flash is your primary light source in low light, put the camera in M mode, set the shutter speed below the sync speed and set the ISO value (not Auto ISO, try ISO 400) and then your aperture where you like. With your flash in TTL mode, the flash will adjust for the exposure, and use flash exposure compensation (FEC) if it is not to your liking. Hope this helps, and good luck.
p.1 #3 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
Disregard this. This doesn't explain my problem/how this happened, but I had recently changed menu item f6 "release button to use dial'. I changed it to ON. It's off by default. During my testing I must have pressed the ISO button and change it and then set it back to 64 (ISO was still on), but somehow it got stuck there at 64.. I didn't turn off auto ISO, so I don't know how it got 'stuck' there at ISO 64, but either way...changing that setting f6 back to Off and then doing more testing, turning the camera and flash on and off as well, just to see if it's consistent, now it seems to be behaving the way I thought it should. If I am in Aperture priority, I can use exposure comp to raise/lower the ambient exposure and let the flash do its job. I can also change the aperture and see the ISO go up and down to account for the aperture change since I've already hit the minimum shutter speed.
p.1 #4 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
jrscls wrote:
I don't have a Nissin flash, but here is my quick take. Av mode and Auto ISO are great for fill flash, but if the flash is your primary light source in low light, put the camera in M mode, set the shutter speed below the sync speed and set the ISO value (not Auto ISO, try ISO 400) and then your aperture where you like. With your flash in TTL mode, the flash will adjust for the exposure, and use flash exposure compensation (FEC) if it is not to your liking. Hope this helps, and good luck.
Thanks! Yeah I was just realizing I could do that...leaving auto ISO on, switch to Manual mode, set the SS to the minimum I can live with and then at that point I just change the aperture to what I need and let Auto ISO do its thing.
Weird thing is after I tested that setup and also realized I had changed the f8 menu item recently (see my updated reply), now the camera is behaving how I'd expect. I don't know what happened but for now I'm just going to assume it's user error and keep an eye on it (do more testing, because I have weeks before I really need it for this scenario)...and see if this happens again and then try to find out what I did (if anything) to cause it or what I did to get it working fine again.
I really don't want to go buy a new flash setup since I rarely use flash and this one is really nice/powerful AND supposedly compatible thanks to Nikon sharing more info with Nissin...but maybe down the road I might switch to something like a Godox V1. We'll see how it goes. Thanks again
p.1 #5 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
Glad you are making some progress. For me, I like Auto ISO in Av mode and manually setting my ISO in M mode to avoid high ISO values when flash is doing the heavy lifting. I like the Godox flashes for their huge selection, wireless triggers, round heads and the use of Li ion batteries that can be charged via USB C.
p.1 #6 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
jrscls wrote:
Glad you are making some progress. For me, I like Auto ISO in Av mode and manually setting my ISO in M mode to avoid high ISO values when flash is doing the heavy lifting. I like the Godox flashes for their huge selection, wireless triggers, round heads and the use of Li ion batteries that can be charged via USB C.
I think I found the problem, and it's making me pretty mad since I JUST bought the Air10S controller. If I remove the controller and use just the flash on the camera, it behaves correctly. The ISO moves as it should with flash on, etc, etc. If I put the controller on, it's like it's partially dumbed down...so, unfortunately I think there might be some functionality that isn't supported in this Nissin Air 10s controller...and I literally just took delivery of it today. Good grief.
Since I really need reliable behavior and off camera flash, I might be forced to buy the Godox V1 with one of their controllers.
BUT...can anyone tell me if there are any compatibility issues like this with the Godox controllers used with the V1 flash?
For example if I were to buy this bundle:
.Godox V1 TTL Flash and XProN Flash Trigger for Nikon.
p.1 #7 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
I think Auto ISO is one of those features which don't work very well with flash, especially with third-party flashes and controllers. I am not saying it cannot work for you, but I recommend the following for working with ambient light and flash.
Put the camera in manual mode and manual ISO. Adjust exposure settings according to ambient light and leave it slightly underexposed (to leave room for the light from the flash) and take a test shot without flash to confirm. Use the on-camera flash in fill flash TTL mode (TTL-BL?) and when shooting, check the results from time to time to see if you need to apply +/- to the flash exposure. If you use remote flash(es), then set only at most one group to TTL and the others to manual mode, as multiple TTL groups can results in sometimes unpredictable results.
I use flash a lot and with the Z8 there can be some additional challenges. The SB-5000 and Nikon's radio controller (WR-R10 series) do work well. With my Elinchrom flashes manual mode at up to sync speed is OK but some of the advanced modes (i.e. auto ISO, high shutter speeds etc.) have produced unexpected results. I am happy with Elinchrom because they have superb modifiers and bare bulb flashes and I have cameras with mechanical shutters that I can use in case I need to, but it would be great if Elinchrome could communicate more with Nikon regarding the implementation of advanced features with Z8/9.
p.1 #8 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
ilkka_nissila wrote:
I think Auto ISO is one of those features which don't work very well with flash, especially with third-party flashes and controllers. I am not saying it cannot work for you, but I recommend the following for working with ambient light and flash.
I sent a question to Godox about this because if I can't get the Nissin to behave the way I want, I may buy a Godox. Keep in mind, for my question to Godox, my assumption was that the controller/trigger would be seen no differently than a flash (unless the controller/trigger just doesn't have the brains to talk to the camera the same way the flash would). I asked them about the V1 and the XProN trigger. Below is their answer. Sounds like they're saying it'll work the way I want with their controller, which means auto iso for ambient like and regular exposure comp (not flash compensation) should also work...but don't want to bet their life on it :-). Also keep in mind, the camera does behave the way I want if the Nissin flash is directly attached to the camera...it's only when I use the trigger that it gets dumbed down and I lose the option to do exposure comp and ambient light auto iso.
"In general, the Godox XProN TTL Wireless Flash Trigger is designed to maintain normal communication between Nikon Z cameras (including the Z8 and Zf) and the camera’s metering system. When used with Godox flashes such as the V1, it does not intentionally disable or block Auto ISO or camera exposure compensation for ambient light. Those functions are still driven by the camera body itself.
That said, with any off-camera trigger (not just Godox), the camera is no longer “seeing” a flash directly on the hot shoe, so ambient exposure behavior can vary depending on camera mode (M / A / S), metering mode, and Nikon’s own firmware logic. This is different from mounting a flash directly on the camera, where the camera may apply additional assumptions.
What you’re seeing with the Nissin Air 10S does appear to be a trigger-specific limitation, rather than a general rule for wireless flash systems. Many Nikon Z users choose the Godox X system specifically because it tends to preserve expected ambient exposure behavior more consistently than some third-party triggers.
While no third-party trigger can absolutely guarantee identical behavior to a direct on-camera flash in every mode, the XProN + V1 combination should behave normally with Auto ISO and camera exposure compensation in typical Nikon Z workflows, and should not impose the limitation you’re currently experiencing with the Nissin controller."
p.1 #9 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
Update on this, in case anyone is interested or someone sees this in the future and needs to know...
I tried this again with a Godox X3Pro N trigger (latest firmware) and a Godox V1 (latest firmware) and if I use the flash off-camera, I get the same functionality as I do with my Nissin combo (Nissin MG60 flash + Nissin Air 10S trigger). Which means, auto ISO for ambient exposure and exposure compensation for ambient exposure no longer work.
This may be well known and how it has always been when people use the flash off-camera and a trigger on the camera, but since I rarely use flash, I hadn't researched this until now and didn't realize this was the expected behavior. I just assumed the trigger would basically look the same to the camera and all that functionality would be passed through and no functions like auto ISO would be lost.
Oh well. For this event I have coming up that I got roped into, I know what the limitations are for off camera flash and I'll be sure to get familiar with my options before then. The good news is though, with either the Godox or Nissin flash ON the cameras (Z8 and Zf), everything works great and I likely won't NEED to use the flash off camera or maybe just a little. Should be OK :-)
p.1 #11 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
For events, I think it's worth it to learn how to shoot fully in manual, to eliminate guess work. Godox flashes in my experience aren't quite as accurate in TTL mode as Nikon and Profoto speedlights. Nissin flashes are pretty good quality, a slight step up from Godox, but you're going to get the best TTL results with Nikon and Profoto.
When I shoot events and weddings, my preferred approach is to set my exposure manually, and set the speedlight in TTL mode, and use the light's exposure comp to dial in how much light that is contributing. Off camera, the TTL exposure is going to be somewhat unreliable, and I would definitely just use manual light settings if you're going to do more off camera flash. My old SB910 does great on camera, but I prefer Profoto speedlights because they recycle faster and don't overheat as easily.
p.1 #12 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
A good read is Strobist 101. Definitely worth the time. https://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html
Using the combination of auto ISO, TTL and AV is giving the camera too much flexibility and your results will be inconsistent. Set a general ISO for the background environment and then use TTL and AV.
p.1 #13 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
photography4me wrote:
Update on this, in case anyone is interested or someone sees this in the future and needs to know...
I tried this again with a Godox X3Pro N trigger (latest firmware) and a Godox V1 (latest firmware) and if I use the flash off-camera, I get the same functionality as I do with my Nissin combo (Nissin MG60 flash + Nissin Air 10S trigger). Which means, auto ISO for ambient exposure and exposure compensation for ambient exposure no longer work.
This may be well known and how it has always been when people use the flash off-camera and a trigger on the camera, but since I rarely use flash, I hadn't researched this until now and didn't realize this was the expected behavior. I just assumed the trigger would basically look the same to the camera and all that functionality would be passed through and no functions like auto ISO would be lost.
Oh well. For this event I have coming up that I got roped into, I know what the limitations are for off camera flash and I'll be sure to get familiar with my options before then. The good news is though, with either the Godox or Nissin flash ON the cameras (Z8 and Zf), everything works great and I likely won't NEED to use the flash off camera or maybe just a little. Should be OK :-)
Nikon's iTTL system uses pre-flashes in combination with focus distance info from the lenses to balance the foreground (flash) and background (ambient) exposures. I'm guessing the pre-flash mechanism for those third-party solutions isn't working like iTTL wants it to for the off-camera case.
p.1 #15 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
story_teller wrote:
A good read is Strobist 101. Definitely worth the time. https://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html
Using the combination of auto ISO, TTL and AV is giving the camera too much flexibility and your results will be inconsistent. Set a general ISO for the background environment and then use TTL and AV.
Exactly, indoors the ambient exposure isn't going to swing that much and shooting in auto iso and aperture priority creates too many variables for failure. Using exposure comp on camera to control shutter, flash output, and iso can be a frustrating exercise, which is why I typically just dial that in on the flash itself (usually about a 1/2 stop lower if subjects are wearing white). The best way to figure out the settings that work for you is to practice, because there are so many different ways you can approach event photography. You can bounce it off walls or ceiling, shoot it direct, completely eliminate ambient light, drag the shutter to get cool blurring effects, combine zoom and motion with shutter drag and speedlight for special effects, etc etc.
For night time or low light events, I usually set my ambient exposure about 1-2 stops lower, so I can use the speedlight to clean up the muddiness of the available light. Having a small set of color correction gels is also handy. My preference is to have as sharp shots as possible in those conditions, especially for corporate events and such, so I try not to have my shutter speed lower than 1/50 of a second with an iso of 800-3200 depending on the available light.
p.1 #16 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
ilkka_nissila wrote:
put the camera in manual mode and manual ISO. Adjust exposure settings according to ambient light and leave it slightly underexposed (to leave room for the light from the flash)
p.1 #17 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
msadat wrote:
i have the nisin, godox flash and a z8.
first can u confirm that when the flash is attached directly works as u like it
i can chk once u tell me the on camera flash all is well.
Yes, both my Nissin MG60 and my New Godox V1 both work exactly the same when mounted directly on the camera. All is well there. But, neither system works with auto ISO when a trigger is used.
p.1 #18 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
story_teller wrote:
A good read is Strobist 101. Definitely worth the time. https://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html
Using the combination of auto ISO, TTL and AV is giving the camera too much flexibility and your results will be inconsistent. Set a general ISO for the background environment and then use TTL and AV.
p.1 #19 · Nikon Z8 + Indoor TTL Flash in Low Light - Need some advice
Thanks again everyone for the advice. And remember, like I said, I rarely ever use flash so it's not my specialty so I was just trying to keep it simple and easy for me since what I need flash for this summer is something that I can't do over and I don't want to disappoint the person I'm helping.
I'll take some time and learn using manual for flash when I need it indoors in lower light. Outdoors I'll be good and it'll be early evening with a few hours before sunset, so outdoors will be fine.
