p.1 #1 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
I know SLRs "see what the lens sees....wide open" due to the mirror, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the film sees unless everything is perfect distance and angled just right. From my huge sample of 2 fm2ns, I can see the variation between them.
And there's very little in the way of calibrating things. Just a mirror angle, but there's also the cage for the focussing screen, the prism that the screen presses up against and the distance/angle between them...the film pressure gate etc.
Whereas rangefinders don't see what the lens sees ... but can they be calibrated to a much higher degree more easily during a service/out of the factory?
Basically. If I get a brand new MP, is it going to be guaranteed to focus perfectly. Or if I take a used one to a shop, they can calibrate it so it's exact? Or should I expect the same sort of frustrations even after dropping a thick stack of cash...?
p.1 #2 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
With any focusing system, things can be out of specification, whether a used camera that's seen a lot of use and/or abuse, or a camera fresh from the factory. One reads stories about rangefinders going out of spec from the vibrations of a car trip, or plane flight. It's never happened to me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I will say, in general, the film Leicas seem to stay "correct" better than the digital ones. Almost every used digital Leica I have bought has needed re-calibration. But maybe they just got knock around at some point.
SLRs seem to be fine until the foam shims start to deteriorate. A pro-level camera, like the Nikon F2 or F3, may be built to tighter tolerances than the enthusiast cameras, like the FM series. They may be less impervious to focus issues.
And let's not even talk about out-of-spec lenses...
p.1 #3 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
The only truly reliable and exact focus system is probably ground glass with a loupe
Plenty of AF film cameras do a pretty great job, they don't rely on the main mirror.
I can't imagine rangefinders are any more reliable in general. The fact that they can more easily be calibrated would lead me to believe they also go out of whack more easily.
p.1 #5 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Yogifi wrote:
I know SLRs "see what the lens sees....wide open" due to the mirror, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the film sees unless everything is perfect distance and angled just right. From my huge sample of 2 fm2ns, I can see the variation between them.
And there's very little in the way of calibrating things. Just a mirror angle, but there's also the cage for the focussing screen, the prism that the screen presses up against and the distance/angle between them...the film pressure gate etc.
Whereas rangefinders don't see what the lens sees ... but can they be calibrated to a much higher degree more easily during a service/out of the factory?
Basically. If I get a brand new MP, is it going to be guaranteed to focus perfectly. Or if I take a used one to a shop, they can calibrate it so it's exact? Or should I expect the same sort of frustrations even after dropping a thick stack of cash...?...Show more →
I don't necessarily agree that the RFs were calibrated more accurately. All of the film cameras needed to be calibrated properly sometimes, even when new were not always quite right. In general expectations were lower than they are today since prints were smaller and the lenses and films were not like what we expect today with digital for example.
AF added additional complexity. In the early days the AF was rather crude and precision limited. After it improved there was still the issue that there were not many adjustments (typically in the lenses). You sometimes had cameras that had errors in the MF accuracy, errors in the AF accuracy or both.
Just as with a 20th century automobile a good repair shop makes a huge difference if you will be using the obsolete gear on a regular basis. Good luck.
p.1 #6 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
As said, the only way to get 100% accurate focus is to use a ground glass and loupe. Or a mirrorless digital camera.
For SLRs the mirror and screen and lens are all calibrated and if all is within spec then, unless there is any damage or degradation (eg foams in the mirror, knock on mirror, lens elements getting out of alignment) it should remain calibrated forever.
The rangefinder is just another part of the system, however the rangefinder will eventually drift.
Now...a brand new MP should be nicely aligned. You don't know how hard the box was dropped though before it made it to the store. In any case, adjusting the rangefinder is a simple process that any rangefinder repair shop can do. If you are a bit (tiny bit) adventurous you can do it yourself too. I've done it a few times on the M4 and M246. Obviously digital with live view makes it soooooooooo much easier but if you are careful with your measurements you can do it with film too.
p.1 #8 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
People have been mentioning lenses need calibration even with slrs, but unless zone focussing or talking about the infinity hard stop, it doesn't matter right?
panos.v wrote:
...
Now...a brand new MP should be nicely aligned. You don't know how hard the box was dropped though before it made it to the store. In any case, adjusting the rangefinder is a simple process that any rangefinder repair shop can do. If you are a bit (tiny bit) adventurous you can do it yourself too. I've done it a few times on the M4 and M246. Obviously digital with live view makes it soooooooooo much easier but if you are careful with your measurements you can do it with film too.
I know there's two screws that you can turn with a key, one for vertical and one for horizontal.
Though I imagine that's harder to test properly with a film camera - except for the infinity focus adjustment.
I read you're supposed to test it both at infinity and close distance... how are you going to do the close distance on film.
A tape measure? It's like calibrating for the lens rather than making sure the camera is right...
I know people use the tape on the back of the film plane, I was doing it last night with the fm2ns and it's kind of a massive pain.
It would be nice to have some ground glass specifically made for this so I can confirm with a loupe more easily. The tape isn't all that well defined. I did see a youtube video about a guy making his own so maybe that's the way to go.
I'm reading people saying something like "never leave home without an m2 allen key", they're joking right?
I often justify the price of a new MP thinking this is the camera for life, I'll take it everywhere.
But if I'm taking it everywhere and a single knock (or vibrations from a car ride) could require a calibration then that's delusional.
I get that in the past perhaps the expectations weren't quite as high overall - but maybe they need to make things a bit more secure nowadays. I appreciate the new phone makers with their rigorous vibration testing.
I don't particularly want to carry a screw driver with me, or make my own groundplane that secures to the back of the camera and take a loupe to check close-focus while out and about
I was reading up on calibration from a place that services Leics, and they talk about epoxying the prism if it keeps requiring adjustment.
Lots of people say they've never had to adjust their camera in decades. But equally as many saying they dropped the camera bag (not even the camera) and it needed adjusting.
Get the MP anyway? Buy some more FM2ns as well and hope they're right? Shoot only at f8? Headaches are a part of life?
They can't weld that stuff in place?
Get some microscope slides and some aluminium oxide 320 grit to make my own ground planes for testing without the damn scotch tape and just buy a bunch of cameras and send back the ones that are off?
But do you need to account for the film thickness...
p.1 #9 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Yogifi wrote:
...
I read you're supposed to test it both at infinity and close distance... how are you going to do the close distance on film.
A tape measure? It's like calibrating for the lens rather than making sure the camera is right...
I know people use the tape on the back of the film plane, I was doing it last night with the fm2ns and it's kind of a massive pain.
It would be nice to have some ground glass specifically made for this so I can confirm with a loupe more easily. The tape isn't all that well defined. I did see a youtube video about a guy making his own so maybe that's the way to go.
... ...Show more →
Use a fully blacked out room and a point light source as your subject. It will form a pinpoint on the tape that you are using as a ground glass, and a point light source against a pitch black background is relatively easy to identify.
p.1 #10 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Yogifi wrote:
People have been mentioning lenses need calibration even with slrs, but unless zone focussing or talking about the infinity hard stop, it doesn't matter right?
I know there's two screws that you can turn with a key, one for vertical and one for horizontal.
Though I imagine that's harder to test properly with a film camera - except for the infinity focus adjustment.
I read you're supposed to test it both at infinity and close distance... how are you going to do the close distance on film.
A tape measure? It's like calibrating for the lens rather than making sure the camera is right...
I know people use the tape on the back of the film plane, I was doing it last night with the fm2ns and it's kind of a massive pain.
It would be nice to have some ground glass specifically made for this so I can confirm with a loupe more easily. The tape isn't all that well defined. I did see a youtube video about a guy making his own so maybe that's the way to go.
I'm reading people saying something like "never leave home without an m2 allen key", they're joking right?
I often justify the price of a new MP thinking this is the camera for life, I'll take it everywhere.
But if I'm taking it everywhere and a single knock (or vibrations from a car ride) could require a calibration then that's delusional.
I get that in the past perhaps the expectations weren't quite as high overall - but maybe they need to make things a bit more secure nowadays. I appreciate the new phone makers with their rigorous vibration testing.
I don't particularly want to carry a screw driver with me, or make my own groundplane that secures to the back of the camera and take a loupe to check close-focus while out and about
I was reading up on calibration from a place that services Leics, and they talk about epoxying the prism if it keeps requiring adjustment.
Lots of people say they've never had to adjust their camera in decades. But equally as many saying they dropped the camera bag (not even the camera) and it needed adjusting.
Get the MP anyway? Buy some more FM2ns as well and hope they're right? Shoot only at f8? Headaches are a part of life?
They can't weld that stuff in place?
Get some microscope slides and some aluminium oxide 320 grit to make my own ground planes for testing without the damn scotch tape and just buy a bunch of cameras and send back the ones that are off?
But do you need to account for the film thickness......Show more →
I think you worry too much about it. You may have to get it done once in like forever. I had to do the M4 because I banged it hard. The 246 was just a smidge off after I don';t know how many frames and a lot of banging around. Ok..I'll give you that the SLRs took a lot more banging and never needed adjusting...but such is a rangefinder.
I actually only did a 2m adjustment on mine. You can use a tripod, a tape measure or something that you know is fixed size, eg a table.
Chances are you'll probably have to do it in 10 years or whenever you get the camera serviced next. Unless you plan to shoot like a 200-300 rolls a year. But then you'd be servicing it every year too and alignment is part of the service.
BTW, I see you're in London? Aperture UK will do it on site for you (ok not on the spot but you don't have to send it). Last time I used them the tech had a week's turnaround. Could probably do it for you while you wait if you indulged him on a few stories and chit chat
p.1 #11 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
And regarding the separate rangefinder calibration, I would certainly give it a try or two. If that fails, and assuming both your eyes work, I recommend using your own eyes along with this (https://tomchuk.com/rf/) to make a manual rangefinder. Instructions are on the page, and as long as your arm length and your interpupillary distance do not change the thing will always be calibrated. It works incredibly well, much better than any of the 5 external rangefinders that I had bought for my Isolette.
p.1 #12 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
theHUN wrote:
Use a fully blacked out room and a point light source as your subject. It will form a pinpoint on the tape that you are using as a ground glass, and a point light source against a pitch black background is relatively easy to identify.
I'll try this next time, thank you. I'm ordering some "magic" scotch tape too, I think mine is some offbrand thing that might not work as well. Tempted to try to make my own ground glass too, I've got some aluminium oxide dust already for some flattening thing for sharpening knives a while back when I was needlessly obssessing over that too. Now I just spend 1 min on 1000 grit shapton ceramic stone. Though it doesn't really fix the nice knives.
panos.v wrote:
I think you worry too much about it. You may have to get it done once in like forever. I had to do the M4 because I banged it hard. The 246 was just a smidge off after I don';t know how many frames and a lot of banging around. Ok..I'll give you that the SLRs took a lot more banging and never needed adjusting...but such is a rangefinder.
I actually only did a 2m adjustment on mine. You can use a tripod, a tape measure or something that you know is fixed size, eg a table.
Chances are you'll probably have to do it in 10 years or whenever you get the camera serviced next. Unless you plan to shoot like a 200-300 rolls a year. But then you'd be servicing it every year too and alignment is part of the service.
BTW, I see you're in London? Aperture UK will do it on site for you (ok not on the spot but you don't have to send it). Last time I used them the tech had a week's turnaround. Could probably do it for you while you wait if you indulged him on a few stories and chit chat ...Show more →
I actually rang them up yesterday. I don't have the MP as I'm still undecided but I was asking about the fm2n adjustment.
He suggested that it might be fixable but didn't really seem too confident in that with nikons. Later said one guy had his done. They have an older gentleman repairing them but he's working from home these days (good for him) and comes in once or twice a week to pick them up he said.
I just wish the call was more like "absolutely, we adjust focus calibration on fm2ns" but it more started out like he didn't know what I was talking about and then suggested it might be possible and it would be £150 (about $200) to check... but I dunno if meant just to inspect or what, I dunno.
Was a very nice guy on the phone and I will definitely pop them a visit at some point to get clarification and have a look around the store.
I can understand it too, there's barely anything to adjust on the fm2n. And with this one it looks like the prism position is off so I can't imagine how fun that would be to even attempt to correct.
A got a bit more faith in them than the guy who told me I need to swap out the meter on the fm2n to replace the viewfinder, who specialises in the camera. Who knows.
I'm going to send this one back and eat the loss (20% import tax), get the proper tape, maybe try making my own ground glass, use the point light source suggestion and practice with the one I think is working. See if it holds up after a few months, get a couple more off ebay if so.
Then maybe when I'm ready for more pain, get the mp and hope for the best. Just a little tired of the headaches these days.
p.1 #13 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Yogifi wrote:
I'll try this next time, thank you. I'm ordering some "magic" scotch tape too, I think mine is some offbrand thing that might not work as well. Tempted to try to make my own ground glass too, I've got some aluminium oxide dust already for some flattening thing for sharpening knives a while back when I was needlessly obssessing over that too. Now I just spend 1 min on 1000 grit shapton ceramic stone. Though it doesn't really fix the nice knives.
I actually rang them up yesterday. I don't have the MP as I'm still undecided but I was asking about the fm2n adjustment.
He suggested that it might be fixable but didn't really seem too confident in that with nikons. Later said one guy had his done. They have an older gentleman repairing them but he's working from home these days (good for him) and comes in once or twice a week to pick them up he said.
I just wish the call was more like "absolutely, we adjust focus calibration on fm2ns" but it more started out like he didn't know what I was talking about and then suggested it might be possible and it would be £150 (about $200) to check... but I dunno if meant just to inspect or what, I dunno.
Was a very nice guy on the phone and I will definitely pop them a visit at some point to get clarification and have a look around the store.
I can understand it too, there's barely anything to adjust on the fm2n. And with this one it looks like the prism position is off so I can't imagine how fun that would be to even attempt to correct.
A got a bit more faith in them than the guy who told me I need to swap out the meter on the fm2n to replace the viewfinder, who specialises in the camera. Who knows.
I'm going to send this one back and eat the loss (20% import tax), get the proper tape, maybe try making my own ground glass, use the point light source suggestion and practice with the one I think is working. See if it holds up after a few months, get a couple more off ebay if so.
Then maybe when I'm ready for more pain, get the mp and hope for the best. Just a little tired of the headaches these days....Show more →
Depending which guy you end up talking in the shop they may or may not know, and they'll then need to ask Kriton (the tech, if he's still the same guy, haven't been in more than a year there) about it. Maybe would be worth asking when the tech is in the shop so you can go and ask him direct. Over the last few years he looked at a couple of Leica R lenses for me, the M4, even fixed my dad's ancient Praktica (crap camera but for sentimental reasons...). So he can probably do to the FM2n whatever is needed.
But for the MP, really...unless there is something really wrong with it I wouldn't worry about doing it more than every few years (if that much).
p.1 #14 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Didn't fully read every post yet, so apologies if that was mentioned before.
Main difference:
SLRs - there can be a misalignment between mirror and film plane, but lenses are usually not an issue (unless they are unable to hit infinity, but that's usually an easy fix).
Rangefinder - there can be a misalignment between the rangefinder and film plane AND each lens can be miscalibrated. So you add an additional source of error and while you can more easily calibrate the rangefinder vs film plane yourself, you are usually out of luck if your lens is miscalibrated (with Leica and Voigtländer lenses at least, some Chinese lenses allow user calibration)
So SLRs should be more reliable overall and they're typically also more robust and don't get knocked out of alignment as easily over time. It's quite typical for rangefinders to require recalibration after some time (then again, not that hard to do).
All that said: I also had issues with focus on a Nikon FM body. No issues with the Nikon F2, Nikon F-301, Nikon F65, Canon 3000N or Pentax K2 though, so maybe the FM series is just more prone to issues nowadays?
I'm currently looking at buying a 90+ years old Leica II, fingers crossed for a well-calibrated rangerfinder
p.1 #15 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Yogifi wrote:
I know SLRs "see what the lens sees....wide open" due to the mirror, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the film sees unless everything is perfect distance and angled just right. From my huge sample of 2 fm2ns, I can see the variation between them.
And there's very little in the way of calibrating things. Just a mirror angle, but there's also the cage for the focussing screen, the prism that the screen presses up against and the distance/angle between them...the film pressure gate etc.
Whereas rangefinders don't see what the lens sees ... but can they be calibrated to a much higher degree more easily during a service/out of the factory?
Basically. If I get a brand new MP, is it going to be guaranteed to focus perfectly. Or if I take a used one to a shop, they can calibrate it so it's exact? Or should I expect the same sort of frustrations even after dropping a thick stack of cash...?...Show more →
Expecting unrelenting headaches even with a fat stack of cash is just a good way to approach life.
Both the FM2n and MP are mechanical devices, both will have mechanical issues. A brand new MP won't absolve you of that. See Huss's issues with a brand new M6 that scratched film out of the box. Get a Leica if you want the user experience and feature set that it offers, but rest assured that it is not mechanically infallible. I think that placing it on a pedestal as something other than just another camera is ill-advised.
You fixed your first FM2n. Your second, you mentioned something with the prism being out of place or something? If you can return it, return it. If not, just get it in a tech's hands and get things moving. It's one of the most common 35mm SLR's out there, there's no reason to spend much time worrying about it. If it's toast, cut your losses and move on.
Past that, my advice is to seek out a pro level SLR like the F3. It has a very robust build, and the focus screen isn't going to move if that's a concern that you have with the FM2n. Same goes for the F2, if you can live without a meter.
Again, if you want a Leica for the rangefinder user experience, get one. My M2 is my main everyday MF camera, but it's not been more reliable than any of my Nikons. They're all just cameras. Find the user experience that most appeals to you, and try to find a happy place within the practical realities and confines of that system. Best of luck either way. Gear problems are definitely annoying.
p.1 #16 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
I used slr cameras from the 1960’s up to mirrorless and rarely had problems with focus.
Recently I began shooting film on 3d printed cameras with helicoids focus scales. In order to get accurate focus I am using a Bosch Blazer Lazer with is designed for outdoors as well as indoors. This lazer has a camera and screen which shows exactly where it is reading. On the end of the lazer is a pin that drops down that you can put it on the film plane to be accurately focused.
p.1 #18 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Another thing worth noting is that some lenses have an aperture dependent focus shift. This can be an issue with a rangefinder. While not convenient, this issue can be dealt with in an SLR by focusing at the working aperture.
p.1 #19 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
I'd prefer to stick to the fm2n if I can get away with it, as much as I appreciate the reputation of the F3.
theHUN wrote:
Use a fully blacked out room and a point light source as your subject. It will form a pinpoint on the tape that you are using as a ground glass, and a point light source against a pitch black background is relatively easy to identify.
I got the Scotch magic tape and it's a lot better than the knock-off tape I was using, but it's still not 100%.
I ordered some small glass slides that I'll try to turn into ground glass with some aluminium oxide powder.
But I'm still using the red dot sticker on a pen. And I just don't know 100% with the scotch tape. It looks good actually with the 105mm macro lens. With the 50 1.4 it seems off...which actually matches what the film results came back as.
Now I don't understand how the lens factors in at all since I'm not using the infinity hard stop for the test nor am I relying on the distance measurements, I'm focussing with the loupe and the tape, then checking on the split prism on a very sturdy tripod and head with precise adjustments to confirm the focus.
I'd like to try the point light source. I tried it with a light bulb but it might be a bit too diffuse. And with my phones torch I wasn't sure how I could confirm focus with the split prism so not quite sure how best to do that as of now.
I'm going to repeat it all again a few times to make sure. I'd like the ground glass so I know it's flat and I can see it crystal clear. I think the glass arrives after the return window closes unfortunately though.
The hard stop is right on my other camera, but not on this one. I don't think it's focus shift, I tested the lens with my Sony and the first camera is really nice now for portraits at f2/2.8. Can't easily focus stopped down with the fm2n...I mean you can hold the dof preview while focussing but that's a pain.
Like how could it be so far off in most of the test roll. But okay with the 105 macro in close range.
I focussed with the split prism on the purple arrow:
How could it be that far off in some of the photos and only a little in others, or fine.
First image I took with the 105 macro on this second camera, and the test today with the loupe suggests it's still okay too.
But not with the 50 1.4 or 35 1.4.. Not the hard stops on this second camera. I'll recheck the 105 at a tree tomorrow in the distance.
It can't be the lenses if I'm not using the distance scale/hard stop, right?
So either my focussing is ridiculously bad if I hit closer to the green arrow when I focussed on the purple. Or I'm doing something weird after pressing the shutter... or there's variation day-to-day with the seating of it all. Or I don't know what.
I'm using a -2 diopter, that shouldn't affect anything, right?
Norm Shapiro wrote:
I used slr cameras from the 1960’s up to mirrorless and rarely had problems with focus.
Recently I began shooting film on 3d printed cameras with helicoids focus scales. In order to get accurate focus I am using a Bosch Blazer Lazer with is designed for outdoors as well as indoors. This lazer has a camera and screen which shows exactly where it is reading. On the end of the lazer is a pin that drops down that you can put it on the film plane to be accurately focused.
I feel like I'm headed in the direction of having some laser to test the focus xD. That sounds fascinating.
Feel like people are saying rangefinders aren't any more accurate but they're "easy enough" to align... but really I want a one and done solution. Effort at the start to find the a good one and then reliable down the line. Maybe when I have the mental energy to deal with an expensive headache and I'm in the mood for trying something different. I'm sure the day will come but perhaps I'll kick it down the line another year or two (or 5). Hopefully Lecia can hold off on re-raising the prices.
Want the cameras sorted, 3 or so fully reliable...and then I can waste my time trying to emulate fuji frontier colours with home scanning.
p.1 #20 · Focussing accuracy question, 35mm SLR vs Rangefinders?
Honeslty I don't know what's going on with this second one.
I did the tape + loupe again, it seemed sometimes okay, sometimes a tiny bit off, depending on what lens, how I stretched the tape, but it was close, sometimes spot on. The glass to make the groundglass thing properly doesn't arrive until after the return window unfortunately.
I thought maybe the reason the first part of the roll came back okay then the next shots (which I took 2 weeks later) were way off is because it got some slack that I didn't rewind. It seemed to clear up a little bit near the end.
So I did one more very fast roll today, and basically every shot was front focussed with only 1 shot that seemed okay.
I was really careful, I took out slack, I shot at high shutter speeds (over 1/125 or faster on a 35mm lens). Focus is on obvious subject or text in the center:
way too optimistic with the banana placement for focus check ^
I checked focus shift with the 35mm f1.4 AIS on a digital camera and I don't see any, though I checked at closer distance.
One shot that looked like it was in-focus, that I'm guessing I either actually messed up, or something shifted - though I don't know how because the prism is basically crushing the focus screen on this body:
Not reliable enough.
I'm just going to send it back, it had enough problems with not matching the listing condition already but mechanically felt really nice and fresh. Pray I don't get screwed by the seller. I'll make sure my first fm2n is actually reliable with multiple rolls before getting a 2nd body in top top condition.
Or just going straight for the MP if the first isn't consistently reliable either.
