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Focus Beyond Infinity

  
 
gyoung143
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p.4 #1 · Focus Beyond Infinity




mdude85 wrote:
Very good point about the ease of magnification. Also, the plane of sharpest focus is theoretical -- lenses can't focus all rays perfectly onto one plane, instead they capture the parallel plane closest to the plane of sharpest focus. The difference between those two planes is illustrated in the circle of confusion.

Advances in lens technology have improved the proximity that a lens can get that perfect plane of focus. So while our eyes have not necessarily become more discerning (arguably human vision, particularly nearsightedness, has declined over time population-wise), the images themselves have become sharper, i.e., lenses are constantly being
...Show more
That is all nonsense. CoC is linked to human eye perception of sharpness. Nothing whatever to do with lens design or optical performance.
Where did you get that photographic theory from? Not from any reputable textbook.
Gerry



Jan 09, 2026 at 01:56 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #2 · Focus Beyond Infinity


gyoung143 wrote:
That is all nonsense. CoC is linked to human eye perception of sharpness. Nothing whatever to do with lens design or optical performance.
Where did you get that photographic theory from? Not from any reputable textbook.
Gerry


Circle of confusion exists specifically because the lens is not able to project an image of the plane of sharpest focus.

If you are looking for a "textbook" that discusses these concepts in more detail, check out "The Camera Assistant, A Complete Professional Handbook" published 1996 by Douglas Hart (pg. 196).

Another book that may be helpful is "Digital Photography for Science" by Enrico Savazzi, published 2010 (pg. 107).

Yet another book that may be helpful is "Pro Digital Photographer's Handbook" by Michael Freeman, published 2005 (pg. 17).

And perhaps yet another book that may be helpful is "A Test of Lens Resolution for the Photographer" by Irvine Clifton Gardner, published 1941 (pgs. 2-7).



Jan 09, 2026 at 02:29 PM
gyoung143
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p.4 #3 · Focus Beyond Infinity


A 'Circle of Confusion' is defined as a small disk that represents the out-of-focus image of a point source in a camera.
This is the definition I was taught 60+ years ago. A 'point' is defined as a 'circle of zero diameteer', as the image gets further out of focus the diameter of the circle grows, the CoC is the largest circle the eye will see as a point, this sets the limits for DoF, and depends on among other things, the magnification needed to produce the print, which is defined in the DoF calculation. This is why viewing at high magnification is an invalid judge of DoF scales.

Gerry

Edited on Jan 09, 2026 at 03:44 PM · View previous versions



Jan 09, 2026 at 03:21 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #4 · Focus Beyond Infinity


gyoung143 wrote:
A 'Circle of Confusion' is defined as a small disk that represents the out-of-focus image of a point source in a camera.
This is the definition I was taught 60+ years ago. A 'point' is defined as a 'circle of zero diameteer', as tge image gets further out of focus the diameter of the circle grows, the CoC is the largest circle the eye will see as a point, this sets the limits for DoF, and de0ends on among other things, the magnification needed to produce the print, which is defined in the DoF calculation. This is why viewing at
...Show more

That all seems right to me! Very good memory you have there... sometimes I forget stuff that I learned only a few months ago

The idea of a "point" as a "circle of zero diameter" is a little bit clunky, but I see how it could be useful for conceptualizing circle of confusion.

In this context, the "point source" is synonymous with the focus point, which is located on the focal plane. The circle of confusion is the image projected onto a plane that is parallel to, but slightly offset from, the focal plane -- but offset to an acceptable degree that the point is still perceived as sharp.




Jan 09, 2026 at 03:29 PM
gyoung143
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p.4 #5 · Focus Beyond Infinity


mdude85 wrote:
That all seems right to me! Very good memory you have there... sometimes I forget stuff that I learned only a few months ago

The idea of a "point" as a "circle of zero diameter" is a little bit clunky, but I see how it could be useful for conceptualizing circle of confusion.

In this context, the "point source" is synonymous with the focus point, which is located on the focal plane. The circle of confusion is the image projected onto a plane that is parallel to, but slightly offset from, the focal plane -- but offset to an acceptable
...Show more

That sounds like a definition of Depth of Focus (Note NOT Depth of Field), which is similar concept applied to issues between lens nodal point and the plane of focus, rather than the 'field' out front of the camera. Depth of Focus is useful in defining tolerances for lens registration, and is smaller the shorter the focal length, the opposite to Depth of Field.

I think we're basically talking about the same things. The concept of a 'circle of zero diameter' probably sounds OK to a scientist, but always caused wry amusement in photography students.

Gerry



Jan 09, 2026 at 03:54 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #6 · Focus Beyond Infinity


gyoung143 wrote:
That sounds like a definition of Depth of Focus (Note NOT Depth of Field), which is similar concept applied to issues between lens nodal point and the plane of focus, rather than the 'field' out front of the camera. Depth of Focus is useful in defing tolerances for lens registration, and is smaller the shorter the focal length, the opposite to Depth of Field.

I think we're basically talking about the same things. The concept of a 'circle of zero diameter' probably sounds OK to a scientist, but always caused wry amusement in photography students.

Gerry


The depth of focus is equal to 2 times the distance between the focal plane and the plane where the circle of confusion is located.

And yes, we are talking about the same thing (glad we could get that cleared up after you called my information "nonsense" )



Jan 09, 2026 at 04:04 PM
gyoung143
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p.4 #7 · Focus Beyond Infinity


mdude85 wrote:
The depth of focus is equal to 2 times the distance between the focal plane and the plane where the circle of confusion is located.

And yes, we are talking about the same thing (glad we could get that cleared up after you called my information "nonsense" )


I still have difficulty understanding your description of these matters, but it's clear it's semantics, and my difficulty may be old age and 'set in my ways', and not the fundamental lack of understanding of the concept exhibited (often) by some others here!

Gerry



Jan 09, 2026 at 04:47 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #8 · Focus Beyond Infinity


gyoung143 wrote:
I still have d8fficulty understanding your descri0tion of these matters, but it's clear it's semantics, and my difficulty may be old age and 'set in my ways', and not the fundamental lack of understanding of the concept exhibited (often) by some others here!

Gerry


To put it simply, I was just pointing out that high tech lenses and high resolution cameras more readily reveal when an image or a subject is out of focus, even if you don't magnify the image.

It's a bit of a paradox that better technology to more easily and quickly capture an extremely sharp image has induced a sort of fixation on sharpness among a lot of photographers.



Jan 09, 2026 at 04:57 PM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #9 · Focus Beyond Infinity




gyoung143 wrote:
Nothing has changed with digital. There is and always has been only one plane of sharpest focus. The theory of DoF which allows hyperfocal focussing too is the same, the human eye and brain have not suddenly become more discerning as to what is 'sharp' when looking at a complete image at 'normal viewing distance'.
What has changed is the ease with which we can view parts of an image at great magnification, 200% on a monitor. This will betray the illusion on which DoF is based instantly, just as a similar exercise on an enlarger baseboard with a magnifier does.
But
...Show more

Of course I'd rather use f/8+ on landscape, it helps, but there is 1 plane of focus, and if you slop it up and focus on the foreground or bg, f/8 won't save you. On a stream this week , I really put a lot of effort into focusing on the middle of the frame vs the roots in the bg or leaves in the foreground because f/5.6-8 isn't enough.



Jan 09, 2026 at 08:08 PM
gyoung143
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p.4 #10 · Focus Beyond Infinity


AmbientMike wrote:
Of course I'd rather use f/8+ on landscape, it helps, but there is 1 plane of focus, and if you slop it up and focus on the foreground or bg, f/8 won't save you. On a stream this week , I really put a lot of effort into focusing on the middle of the frame vs the roots in the bg or leaves in the foreground because f/5.6-8 isn't enough.


In that situation the focus point should be one third of the the distance between the nearest and farthest points you want to appear 'sharp' as there is roughly twice as much DoF behind the plane of focus as in front.
A good example of where accurate focus scales can be used, you can focus on nearest and raergest points and then make sure you use an aperture amd focus point that will cover those two distances. I usually stop down another half stop or so to cover myself for innacuracies. Note that at f/8 you will be starting into difraction territory which will lower sharpness overall.
Cinematography versions of lenses are MF, with accurate extended focus scales, and the cameraman will often actually measure those near and far points with a tape measure.

Gerry



Jan 10, 2026 at 03:00 AM
 


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Jack Flesher
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p.4 #11 · Focus Beyond Infinity


AmbientMike wrote:
Of course I'd rather use f/8+ on landscape, it helps, but there is 1 plane of focus, and if you slop it up and focus on the foreground or bg, f/8 won't save you. On a stream this week , I really put a lot of effort into focusing on the middle of the frame vs the roots in the bg or leaves in the foreground because f/5.6-8 isn't enough.


Re f8”+” you indicate. On the 40mp APSC Fuji sensor, the “plus” starts pushing you into diffraction territory. Actually, in my own testing, I’ve found f7.1 the sweet spot for max DoF/barely detectable diffraction with the little Fuji. Regardless, even with the effective DoF gains of APSC and f7.1 being roughly equal to f10 on full frame, it’s true we’re still limited in what all is in “perfect” focus in a “landscape” type image. The significant however-butt is that it’s because of the tiny pixel pitches we have today, the extremes of diffraction and DoF limitations are more easily seen at 100% view. In reality at normal viewing distances and image sizes using f7.1 on APSC, diffraction is virtually a non-issue and the CoC is more than adequate to generate quite remarkable DoF. IOW, it’s easy to see the technical limitation warts when viewing at 100% or 200%, but not often significant under normal viewing conditions for whatever output medium chosen.



Jan 10, 2026 at 08:07 AM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #12 · Focus Beyond Infinity




gyoung143 wrote:
In that situation the focus point should be one third of the the distance between the nearest and farthest points you want to appear 'sharp' as there is roughly twice as much DoF behind the plane of focus as in front.
A good example of where accurate focus scales can be used, you can focus on nearest and raergest points and then make sure you use an aperture amd focus point that will cover those two distances. I usually stop down another half stop or so to cover myself for innacuracies. Note that at f/8 you will be starting into difraction
...Show more

You talk like you think you are really enlightening me. But this is about the same stuff I heard on film that didn't really turn out to be correct. If youre OK using that level if CoC, go ahead and hyperfocal focus, but its not very sharp, even on film



Jan 10, 2026 at 10:19 AM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #13 · Focus Beyond Infinity



Jack Flesher wrote:
Re f8”+” you indicate. On the 40mp APSC Fuji sensor, the “plus” starts pushing you into diffraction territory. Actually, in my own testing, I’ve found f7.1 the sweet spot for max DoF/barely detectable diffraction with the little Fuji. Regardless, even with the effective DoF gains of APSC and f7.1 being roughly equal to f10 on full frame, it’s true we’re still limited in what all is in “perfect” focus in a “landscape” type image. The significant however-butt is that it’s because of the tiny pixel pitches we have today, the extremes of diffraction and DoF limitations are more easily
...Show more

Mostly the stuff you read about diffraction is bogus imo. Yes, they make lenses that are sharpest by 5.6 these days, honestly thats a bit of a problem though, if you prefer f/8+. Look at adaptall-2.com, they have a bunch of old MP tests, you can find excellent lenses at f/11+.

I did a lot of f/16-32 shooting on 12mp m4/3, 48mp FF pixel density. I can't imagine whatever equations they made up say that works. But it does, or it can, given the proper lens



Jan 10, 2026 at 10:24 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #14 · Focus Beyond Infinity


mdude85 wrote:
It's a bit of a paradox that better technology to more easily and quickly capture an extremely sharp image has induced a sort of fixation on sharpness among a lot of photographers.


In terms of the effect on photographers, I think there are two elements.

1. Because getting a “sharp” photograph has always been a concern (that’s, in part, why we use tripods, remote/cable releases, careful focus, appropriate shutter speeds, good lenses), “sharper” has always been seen regarded as a virtue in photography, even to the point that some of the “sharper-ness” today goes beyond being meaningful. (E.g. people who will pick one “sharpest” lens over an another very fine and quite sharp lens that test as very slightly less sharp in some way.)

2. For those who do produce large output, today we can push relatively small formats (such as full frame) far beyond what we would typically have considered back int the day. Today we (who make large prints) regularly produce beautiful prints at sizes that were the sole domain of large format film photography. For those people, the extra “sharpness” of lenses and the higher resolution of contemporary digital cameras do make a difference. (Hint: Most users are not in this category. To be blunt, those who are making photographs to share on social media, etc don’t get any benefit from the highest resolution systems, aside from a “feel good” benefit. ;-)

- - -

Along these lines, some of the notions about aperture, diffraction blur, and depth of field that I read are… simplistic.

Years ago I bought into the believe that (on the cameras of that era in a certain format) f/8 was the “sharpest” aperture. In fact, there was a logical argument for saying that. As long as you were photographing a flat subject parallel to the film/sensor plane.

Changing the aperture to deal with DOF isn’t about getting the very sharpest measured image at some point in the frame from a given lens and format. It is about getting best getting the photographic effect you have in mind. And, going further, “sharpness” isn’t about the sharpest aperture, but about getting the visual quality of sharpness that you want in your photograph.

The examples are pretty obvious, but here you go:

1. If focus a varying distances isn’t an issue (say you re photographing a brick wall or you aren’t really concerned about absolute sharpness in front of or behind your primary subject… just use what you judge to be the sharpest aperture for your lens. That is, in part, the diffraction-limited aperture, but if you are using a lens that sharpens a bit in the corners at a slightly smaller aperture you might go there instead to bet the best overall sharpness sin the frame and the expense of the ideal sharpness at the theoretically best point on that lens.

2. If you have a subject with elements at varying distances and you want to highlight a primary subject (via lighting, position, focus, etc.) and diminish the attention on those at other distances, in addition to using lighting, color, composition (and other things) to deemphasize background (and possibly foreground) elements, using a larger aperture to limit the DOF may produce an image that is “subjectively sharper,” even though the sharpest point in the image may be objectively less sharp than if you sued the supposedly ideal aperture for that lens and format. (Yes, the perception of sharpness may trump the measurement of sharpness.)

3. If you have (as in #2) a subject with elements at varying distances, but you want to get the best focus possible on all of them (without using things like focus blending or lenses with movements), then you sacrifice some of the optimal sharpness at the “plane” of optimum focus by using a smaller aperture that visibly improves the focus on those elements at different distances. Again, while the measured sharpness of the sharpest point in the frame may diminish, the “subjective sharpness” of the image improves because (as desired here) more elements look sharp. The skeptic says, “but at f/16 or f/22 you’ll have diffraction blur!!!” Yes, you will. But you have to go beyond what the math tells you and evaluate the image to see whether that sacrifice leads to a better overall image in this context or not.

That’s a lot of words, but you can reduce the entire brouhaha down to three options:

1. If DOF doesn’t matter (and other factors permit it), just shoot close to the diffraction-limited aperture.

2. If you want to limite DOF, open up as far as needed.

3. If you want to maximize DOF close down as far as needed.



Jan 10, 2026 at 11:06 AM
gyoung143
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p.4 #15 · Focus Beyond Infinity




AmbientMike wrote:
You talk like you think you are really enlightening me. But this is about the same stuff I heard on film that didn't really turn out to be correct. If youre OK using that level if CoC, go ahead and hyperfocal focus, but its not very sharp, even on film

And I used lenses on 5x4 thst were 5.6 max aperture, usually used at 16 or 32
The old theories are based on science, on measurable criteria.
You think they were wrong. The army is out of step with you.
That should tell you something.

Gerry



Jan 10, 2026 at 12:11 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #16 · Focus Beyond Infinity


AmbientMike wrote:
Mostly the stuff you read about diffraction is bogus imo. Yes, they make lenses that are sharpest by 5.6 these days, honestly thats a bit of a problem though, if you prefer f/8+. Look at adaptall-2.com, they have a bunch of old MP tests, you can find excellent lenses at f/11+.

I did a lot of f/16-32 shooting on 12mp m4/3, 48mp FF pixel density. I can't imagine whatever equations they made up say that works. But it does, or it can, given the proper lens


There is a lot of incorrect, confused stuff posted about diffraction*, but it is also fairly easy to understand and to test for yourself.

it is an optical phenomenon that affects all lenses, one that is related to focal length and aperture, not to how well the lens is made. Diffraction isn't about the quality of the lens itself. It affects the best lens in the world just as it affects the worst.

It is pretty easy to test for yourself. Take that m2/3 camera and put it on a tripod and manually focus on a clear target. Make test photos at each whole aperture (f/2.8, f/4, f/5.6,... f/32) and then compare at whatever size you usually use for display. (If you are starting with the small m4/3 format, you'll necessarily magnify more to get an image of a given size.)

It is true that if you only view your photographs at very small sizes (maybe like 3" x 4" from M4/3? Or on Instagram on your phone?) that you might not notice diffraction blur even at extreme apertures like f/32. But if you are, for example, the sort of person who likes to view on a larger monitor or make larger prints from 12MP M4/3 originals, it is going to be an issue.

That's neither bogus nor controversial. It is just a fact.

- - -

* Among the bogus things about diffraction I've recently read on Internet forums is an implication that diffraction would not typically be an issue when shooting at f/32 on a m4/3 system...



Jan 10, 2026 at 03:40 PM
ruthenium
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p.4 #17 · Focus Beyond Infinity


Regarding diffraction, this is part of the photographic equivalence considerations. Basically, the onset of diffraction is detectable in equivalent images at equivalent apertures. In my experience, and I believe in the experience of others, the onset of diffraction is seen at f8 with FF cameras. Thus the onset of diffraction should be expected at f4 with micro-four-thirds cameras, or f10 with my GFX100S II.

Jack Hogan extencively studied the question of best aperture f number for best DoF for different shooting scenarios, in the 24 to 35mm FL. He published at least two long and detailed articles on the subject, see
https://www.strollswithmydog.com/diffracted-dof-aperture-guides-24-35mm/#more-4206
Among many things there, interestingly, he noted "for me, it seems that I will no longer be stopping down past f/11.  For additional reinforcement, a pen pal who saw my post kindly wrote to say that legendary adventurer-photographer Galen Rowell taught him back in the ’90s to use f/11 and to focus in the foreground, typically 1.5-2m (4-6′ away.  “One reason Galen emphasized forward focus is that this let infinity go just a bit on the soft side, and provided an additional depth cue”.



Jan 11, 2026 at 12:23 AM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #18 · Focus Beyond Infinity




gdanmitchell wrote:
There is a lot of incorrect, confused stuff posted about diffraction*, but it is also fairly easy to understand and to test for yourself.

it is an optical phenomenon that affects all lenses, one that is related to focal length and aperture, not to how well the lens is made. Diffraction isn't about the quality of the lens itself. It affects the best lens in the world just as it affects the worst.

It is pretty easy to test for yourself. Take that m2/3 camera and put it on a tripod and manually focus on a clear target. Make test
...Show more

GDan, I already tested at different apertures. For all your preaching and "facts':

Did you?

And, no, the new lenses dont tend to do as well. Yes at some point any lens starts to get less sharp if stopped down but acting like there's some grand law of science really, I doubt it. Ive gotten good results at f/32 on m4/3, but maybe youre not capable



Jan 11, 2026 at 12:57 AM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #19 · Focus Beyond Infinity



gyoung143 wrote:
And I used lenses on 5x4 thst were 5.6 max aperture, usually used at 16 or 32
The old theories are based on science, on measurable criteria.
You think they were wrong. The army is out of step with you.
That should tell you something.

Gerry


I wish I could find the thread on this where pretty much everyone agreed with me on this. If youre concerned with group dynamics



Jan 11, 2026 at 12:59 AM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #20 · Focus Beyond Infinity


I've read the 50/1.2 Nikkor AIS is sharpest at f/2. Does that mean diffraction sets in by 2.8 and you shouldn't shoot other lenses at 2.8, even, due to diffraction?

Of course, that doesn't make much sense. But its probably about the same thing people are doing acting like there's some law of nature saying a lens can't be best at f/11



Jan 11, 2026 at 01:16 AM
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