p.1 #3 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
Interesting.
I think the number one thing Canon must do with the R7 Mark II (after offering a dedicated battery grip for it, haha) is to substantially improve the readout speed of the sensor to give the autofocus system a fighting chance.
Adding almost 20% more pixels does not seem conducive to that, and Canon has not brought a stacked design to even it's latest 32.5 MP full frame sensor, so I'm a little skeptical of it pushing its APS-C technology past that.
But I would love to be pleasantly surprised. If the camera were truly capable at a professional level, I think the people for whom it would appeal would pay a premium for it.
p.1 #4 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
I'm holding off on any big lens purchases for wildlife until this body comes out. I'm pretty committed to shooting on a crop body for the weight savings while shooting on a lighter lens, but if the autofocus doesn't dramatically improve, I might move on. OM Systems is starting to look REALLY appealing, especially the 150-400mm f4.5 lens.
p.1 #5 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
I believe a stacked sensor allows data to be read faster then a conventional sensor, as well as, rapid burst shooting, blackout-free vf's & reduced rolling shutter for video. It would make sense if Canon took this route at this time on their flagship camera, since it's only a matter of time before others do the same thing.
Jim
p.1 #6 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
If they do a 'fully stacked sensor', as implemented by Canon, then it would likely portend the price of this technology plummeting - and then probably proliferating throughout camera manufacturer lineups.
And they have plenty of reasons to do this, since their 'AI' subject tracking algorithms won't work without fast updates from the sensor!
p.1 #7 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
A 40MP APS-C sensor suggests that possibility of a FF sensor with higher resolution than the current Canon 45MP sensors. My extrapolation. this suggests that Canon might eventually produce a FF sensor camera that… more or less equals the resolution that Sony cameras have had for a few years now. Maybe. Or not.
p.1 #8 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
I'm wondering if Canon will eventually loose the antialiasing filter on future high resolution APS-C cameras?
While they are at it, introduce RF-S high end large aperture telephotos and other lenses, fixed or zoom.
It seems to me that an R7 Mark II with a stacked 40MP sensor would be going in this direction? That is, of course, if there is a big enough market for any of this and how it all competes with their full frame cameras?
p.1 #9 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
gdanmitchell wrote:
A 40MP APS-C sensor suggests that possibility of a FF sensor with higher resolution than the current Canon 45MP sensors. My extrapolation. this suggests that Canon might eventually produce a FF sensor camera that… more or less equals the resolution that Sony cameras have had for a few years now.
40MP APS-C pixel density extrapolated to FF is much higher than Sony's current 60MP sensor.
One could have said the same thing about Canon's current APS-C ~33MP sensor, which IIRC, a version of which debuted with the 90D/M6II ~6 years ago. But that never happened, for whatever reason.
While Sony has done this with their 60MP FF sensor and corresponding APS-C and mini-MF versions with the same pixel density/architecture, they haven't yet released a FF sensor with the same pixel density as their 40MP APS-C sensor. Maybe that's what the a7RVI will be? And a clear increase over 50-60MP, likely warranting a legitimate reason to switch systems.
Re: R7 40MP stacked sensor. Strictly from the perspective of pixel count, Canon already produces the 45MP stacked sensor in the R5II, so theoretically, shrinking that all down to fit APS-C instead should be doable. And even if the line to line readout speed was is same as the R5II's sensor, the total time to scan an APS-C sensor would be shorter than FF, and on paper it would be a faster sensor.
p.1 #10 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
Canon could certainly do all of this. I think it's more a question of cost and whether they think this market segment could sustain the potentially higher prices more advanced sensors would require.
The R6 Mark III seems to have been mostly spared the cripple hammer, so perhaps this signals a willingness on Canon's part to push the envelope a bit further here as well.
I'm sure they also know that there is an interest in a higher resolution FF body. If Sony steps it up to 80 megapixels there'll be even more pressure for Canon to have a response.
p.1 #12 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
Sony 40MP APS-C is 90MP FF equivalent.
Canon 33MP APS-C (1.6x crop) is ~85MP FF equivalent.
Canon 40MP APS-C is ~102MP FF equivalent.
I agree it's a matter of where Canon thinks APS-C fits into the overall picture. Currently it seems to be more of an entry-level suite from which to upgrade to FF, than as a full ranging system within the greater R system. A stacked 33MP sensor would probably mean a $3K body. Still reasonable relative to the 6-series, but expensive for APS-C, unless it's a proper 'semi-pro' body (closer to 5-series than 6-series).
There are likely two segments that would be interested in a stacked APS-C camera: those who can't justify the R5II price but want something with better rolling shutter performance for covering action than the 6-series cameras. An additional APS-C benefit for this group would be use of shorter/smaller/less expensive lenses that would otherwise require longer, more expensive lenses on FF for equivalent framing. The second group would be those who want the highest pixel density available and are frequently reach limited, such as bird/wildlife applications where stacked would be beneficial.
Maybe Canon could do two versions of the camera like what Fuji did with the X-H2S/X-H2. 24-30MP stacked and 40+ non-stacked. The latter would be a disappointment for the birding/wildlife crowd. But APS-C currently seems a low priority for Canon, so it would be quite amazing if they were to actually do something like this.
p.1 #14 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
gdanmitchell wrote:
A 40MP APS-C sensor suggests that possibility of a FF sensor with higher resolution than the current Canon 45MP sensors. My extrapolation. this suggests that Canon might eventually produce a FF sensor camera that… more or less equals the resolution that Sony cameras have had for a few years now.
The current 32mpx scaled up is 80mpx.
A 40mpx apsc scaled up to full frame would about 105mpx
However,both of them would be defraction limited at f4.6.
p.1 #16 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
Uarctos wrote:
That will be the king of noise of Aps-c.
I thought that when the 90D came out and yet, it wasn't really the case.
There is no reason that Canon's effort should necessarily be worse than the 40 MP sensor in the Fujifilm X-T5 or X-H2. This is already established territory for APS-C.
p.1 #17 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
( deleted one earlier comment and response that did not make sense.)
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garyvot wrote:
Canon could certainly do all of this. I think it's more a question of cost and whether they think this market segment could sustain the potentially higher prices more advanced sensors would require.
This type of argument — that a company cannot do X because of the higher cost of the new technology — doesn’t work the way that some think it does.
You have to think of the new technology relative to the overall state of technology at the times you are comparing. I could imagine someone in 2003 arguing that companies could never produce 20MP sensor or consumer-level full frame sensors due to the”substantially higher prices” for those “more advanced sensors.”
But technology does not stand still. And today’s cameras actually cost LESS than those older models on an inflation-adjusted scale.
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EB-1 wrote:
40 MP stackable sensor will be very noisy.
and
Uarctos wrote:
That will be the king of noise of Aps-c.
Maybe not, for the same reasons mentioned in the above response. Since digital cameras first became available, every time a new sensor design with higher photosite density was announced, some people have said, “But the noise will be worse! YOu can’t do that!”
My first digital camera had something like .3 (yes, “point three”) MP on it and the noise was horrible. My next digital camera was 3MP and the noise was a bit better. The noise on my first DSLR (8MP) was not great, but it improved on the 3MP sensor camera. My first FF camera was 12MP, and while it had very low noise at base ISO, though you couldn’t get away with higher ISOs. Today’s sensors have much higher photo site density (think 40MP APS-C, 60 MP FF, and 100MP miniMF) and their noise performance is actually quite excellent.
One of my cameras is a Fujifilm XT5 with a 40MP sensor. It’s noise performance is quite good.
p.1 #18 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
garyvot wrote:
I thought that when the 90D came out and yet, it wasn't really the case.
There is no reason that Canon's effort should necessarily be worse than the 40 MP sensor in the Fujifilm X-T5 or X-H2. This is already established territory for APS-C.
Canon does have their work cut out for them - they not only need to up the resolution without killing dynamic range or high-ISO performance, they also need to increase readout speed at the same time.
p.1 #19 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
And it will be billed as a mini R1.... Just like the 7DII. 7DII a mini 1DX...
As soon as you hear those words most will know what kind of camera it will be.
p.1 #20 · Canon EOS R7 Mark II to Have Stacked 40MP Sensor?
gdanmitchell wrote:
This type of argument — that a company cannot do X because of the higher cost of the new technology — doesn’t work the way that some think it does.
You have to think of the new technology relative to the overall state of technology at the times you are comparing. I could imagine someone in 2003 arguing that companies could never produce 20MP sensor or consumer-level full frame sensors due to the”substantially higher prices” for those “more advanced sensors.”
But technology does not stand still. And today’s cameras actually cost LESS than those older models on an inflation-adjusted scale.
Yes, no doubt, but practical cost constraints were not my point. Rather, I was speaking to Canon's willingness to push its entries in the APS-C category into more premium territory, which would be necessary for it to create the camera that most of us would want. The cost of such a camera would of necessity be higher, and maybe higher than Canon's marketers would believe is sustainable.
