Hi All - When shooting volleyball through / around the net...
1. Which camera(s) are you using?
2. Which AF area mode(s) are you using?
3. Do you find the AF to be sticky enough on a subject's face or eye? Does it ever show the AF box around the subject's eye even if it's focused on the net?
4. How often do you feel the AF system grabs the net instead of the player? Any tactics you've found to work around this?
5. Which lenses & shooting positions are your favorite for the sport?
1. Canon R3 (And Previously 1DX- or 1D-series bodies)
2. Various: Traditional point-based AF and Subject Tracking
3. The R3 Subject Tracking AF tracks the face/eye of a player nearly 99% of the time without reverting to focusing on the net or another object. More than 50% of the time when shooting through the net, the camera actually focuses on the net when it is highlighting a players head or eye as the subject. This gets better for focusing on the player the further from the net they player is.
4. The only thing I can think of would be to use point-based focusing with a focusing point lower than the net to focus on the player's lower body/legs/feet (assuming they are mostly vertical).
5. Volleyball is fun because you can pretty much shoot the sport from any angle and get good shots. (Just don't hide behind the chair umpire -- not that I'd ever try that.) That said, I prefer to shoot from the floor if I can. Often I try to shoot from the sideline area, and toward the net (if there is enough room behind the setters), and if the gym has the facilities, from a raised area shooting toward the net or from the grandstands toward the court from the side.
For 5, the exact positions and lens usage vary on whether I'm shooting one team or both. I should also mention that I shoot exclusively college volleyball. I can't speak to international, national, or local senior-, junior-, or youth-level shooting.
That said, I mostly use the 70-200 2.8 and 300mm 2.8 combo during games. I could sub out the 300 for a 24-70 or 16-35 when shooting from certain positions or at the end of game to get post game photos on the court. I have used a 400mm lens occasionally, but its usage is limited to really featuring one player at a time. (Again, that goes back to how many sets does the game last and how many teams am I shooting. By the fourth or fifth set I may want to try some tight isolation with a 400 that may not be there in a 3 set sweep.) I also sometimes use an 85mm 1.8. Combining that lens with the R3's articulated rear display means you can get some wonderful shots from floor level without worrying about also zooming. The image I uploaded is an example of that. (Screengrab from my Instagram, so lower quality.)
FWIW, Canon added support for a special AF case for shooting through a net in a firmware update for the EOS R1 and EOS R5 Mark II. See https://cam.start.canon/en/C017/manual/html/UG-04_AF-Drive_0090.html#AF-Drive_0090_3. I tried it, but didn't notice a big difference as the face/eye tracking of my R5II already did a pretty good job of sticking to players on the other side of the net. That said, I didn't notice any downside to using it.
@Caleb Williams - Super helpful info and sample shot, thank you! What did you mean when you said the R3 tracks a player ~ 99% of the time without reverting to the net ... but more than 50% of the time it focuses on the net?
@vbnut - Yes! I just learned yesterday the new Case Special 'through the net' was added to the R5 II as well (originally I thought it was the R1 only). Thanks for posting the link to the deep dive The fact that Canon already implemented Action Priority and is now adding additional Case Special options is fantastic.
jmreese wrote:
@Caleb Williams@ - Super helpful info and sample shot, thank you! What did you mean when you said the R3 tracks a player ~ 99% of the time without reverting to the net ... but more than 50% of the time it focuses on the net?
Yes, that was very badly worded. What I meant was that it the selection point will keep up to the person (either head or eye) without selecting the net as the selection point in Area AF. The examples I share below show the selection point following the player's head (for the most part), but the plane of focus on some of these series is in line with the net.
(Note that I have shared these images on FM previously.)
jmreese wrote:
@vbnut@ - Yes! I just learned yesterday the new Case Special 'through the net' was added to the R5 II as well (originally I thought it was the R1 only). Thanks for posting the link to the deep dive The fact that Canon already implemented Action Priority and is now adding additional Case Special options is fantastic.
FWIW, I haven't tried volleyball action priority with indoor volleyball (which I don't shoot very often these days), but I tried it for beach volleyball and didn't find it particularly helpful. I play volleyball myself, and am very familiar with the flow of the game, so I know who my intended subject is, and I generally zoom in enough to only have one or two players in the frame. Maybe action priority isn't applicable for my style of shooting.
@vbnut - Great insight, thanks. It's my understanding that Action Priority requires enough of the scene in view for the camera to be predictive with AF. I too like to zoom in on 1-2 players, so the feature likely won't be of much use.
However, it's the Case Special ('Characteristics suitable for shooting through nets') that has me most interested. Did you try using this with Action Priority turned off (if that's even possible)?
jmreese wrote:
@Caleb Williams@ - Got it, thanks for sharing all the images, above. Your replies have been helpful. I've gotta try that floor technique next time
Go for it. Thanks for connecting on Instagram, too!
vbnut wrote:
FWIW, I haven't tried volleyball action priority with indoor volleyball (which I don't shoot very often these days), but I tried it for beach volleyball and didn't find it particularly helpful. I play volleyball myself, and am very familiar with the flow of the game, so I know who my intended subject is, and I generally zoom in enough to only have one or two players in the frame. Maybe action priority isn't applicable for my style of shooting.
I don't know if you shoot serve receive, but I could see it being nice if the camera could quickly focus on the "right" person that's actually going to dig the ball, instead of just guessing. But that may mean zooming out a bit. (I'm talking about shooting from the floor on the side, not an elevated position. behind the end line.)
BYU Photos did put out this video covering Action Priority on the R1, inc. volleyball:
jmreese wrote:
@vbnut@ - Great insight, thanks. It's my understanding that Action Priority requires enough of the scene in view for the camera to be predictive with AF. I too like to zoom in on 1-2 players, so the feature likely won't be of much use.
However, it's the Case Special ('Characteristics suitable for shooting through nets') that has me most interested. Did you try using this with Action Priority turned off (if that's even possible)?
Yes, I did. In early October, I shot beach volleyball for 4 days at the FIVB Beach Pro Tour Elite 16 tournament in Newport Beach. I used Case Special with Action Priority turned off the entire time. As I said earlier, I didn't notice a big difference as the face/eye tracking of my R5II already did a pretty good job of sticking to players on the other side of the net, but I also didn't notice any downside to using it.
Hopefully I'll finish processing those images in a few days, and when I publish them online I'll post a link here.
Caleb Williams wrote:
I don't know if you shoot serve receive, but I could see it being nice if the camera could quickly focus on the "right" person that's actually going to dig the ball, instead of just guessing. But that may mean zooming out a bit. (I'm talking about shooting from the floor on the side, not an elevated position. behind the end line.)
BYU Photos did put out this video covering Action Priority on the R1, inc. volleyball:
I do shoot serve-receive, but I have tried to internalize the sports shooting mantra "shoot tight, crop tighter", so most of the time I'm zoomed in pretty tight. Also, most teams tend to target a specific passer in a specific rotation, so it doesn't take very long to learn which player is most likely to receive the serve.
Yeah, I watched the BYU Photos video and my reaction at the time was that, for volleyball, Action Priority had very little impact. I'm even skeptical for the one sequence where Jaren claims it is helping, as he moves the camera to reframe the image on the attacker, so that the setter isn't in the frame anymore.
Later, I tried it a bit myself, and came to the conclusion that for my style of shooting volleyball, Action Priority has no impact. Fortunately, the face/eye tracking is so good that I don't need Action Priority. Of course, your mileage may vary.
I'm personally not a huge fan of action at the net, simply because it often looks misplaced and the ball can be set anywhere from 1-ball width to ~8-9ft off the net. This makes nailing focus more difficult. At the higher levels with bigger blocks, the ball gets set further off the net. I typically find that the images look nicer when the ball is closer to the net, which is not something you can control.
I enjoy shooting from the sideline and isolating players serving, setting, and digging. This photographer. is a good example of what I strive for. Of course you can shoot wide, include the net, and you'll get more documentary style shots with 2-4 people playing the ball.
For serve receive, I typically just focus on the person closest to the side line as that is the best shot you can get without someone getting in your way. If you focus on position 6 you are at the mercy of whether position 5 or 1 are in your way. Bonus tip you usually want to be on the left side line, the line closest to position 4 and 5, because in most systems it is preferential to pass the ball on the left seam / left side of the body. This is a product of most serves coming from position 1 on the opposite side, and that setters aim for 2.5 and aiming for that spot with a left angled platform is easier.
Volleyball is tough. Biggest tip I got (and noted above) is to set your focus point at their feet to keep it from catching the net. And hope for a bit of luck!
@vbnut - Good to hear the R5II has strong enough AF capabilities on its own without Action Priority / Case Special being activated. I look forward to using the camera for vball next month.
@Lethimcook - Helpful insights re: game flow, thank you! This image from your tagged photographer above is a great example of shooting through the net (and having an AF system that will be successful more often than not)
@topheranderson07 - I may have to try an AF point below the net.
topheranderson07 wrote:
Volleyball is tough. Biggest tip I got (and noted above) is to set your focus point at their feet to keep it from catching the net. And hope for a bit of luck!
I used to do that with my DSLRs, and it helped a lot, but I don't find it necessary with the great face/eye tracking in the R5II.
Me personally, I'd rather have taken that shot from the sideline and about halfway to the baseline so that I am diagonally facing the setter.I think a baseline shot here would also work really well as I'd prefer the player to be in the foreground and the net in the background. This I think looks nicer to my eyes, the referee kind of botches the shot a bit but if the sides on the court were switched (as they do switch every set) you'd be able to capture a very similar shot with no referee, and just blurrier spectators which would be further away instead.
Without a doubt though this person has quite the portfolio of shots through the net and they're all well above average, plus the shots are very technically challenging as well. I'm not really sure what setup this person shoots, but diving through his instagram he's been shooting for a very long time and producing very similar shots with a particular style. So I'd logically come to the conclusion that he's not using the latest and greatest AF tech, and probably has found a workaround or simply just takes a lot of photos and finds keepers with a sub 50% hit rate (I'm not sure what I get with my A1 but it is also ~50% hit rates).
topheranderson07 wrote:
Volleyball is tough. Biggest tip I got (and noted above) is to set your focus point at their feet to keep it from catching the net. And hope for a bit of luck!
I sort of do this with volleyball too. I use back button focus on a spot on the floor where most of the action takes place (say a foot or two back from the net) then when a hitter is in action I had good luck getting a good shot. I did this when shooting from the end of the court or the sides near the ends.
The fact that Canon already implemented Action Priority and is now adding additional Case Special options is fantastic.
