gordec wrote:
All joking aside the CV 75 f1.9 is a very attractive option. With 0.5m close focus it even beats the APO for reproductive ratio.
I sold this lens after purchasing the APO. I prefer to use lenses wide open and the APO did that for me. The Ultron was smaller and lighter and a great lenses for many..just not what I was looking for. I actually purchased it as an effort to avoid the extra cost of buying Leica APO. This strategy worked with the 35mm & 50 mm APO Lanthars vs APO Leica.. but not with the 75mm. If you primarily use the lens stopped down, the Ultron might be the better choice.
I don't know why the 90 APO doesn't get more love. I think it's a stellar lens and not much heavier than the 75 APO (which I also have). My regular kit when I travel is the 21 SEM, 35 Lux, 50 Lux and 90 APO. Sometimes I'll use the 28 Cron, 50 Lux and 90 APO combo. Rarely the 28 and 75. I find that little extra reach of the 90 adds just a tad more background separation when I want it. Heck, I love my 135 APO too. And I don't find it hard to focus like some do.
On another note, I have to laugh a little at some elements of this discussion. I have an Oberwerth Louis VFlex bag (meant for the M11 with Visoflex attached if you want to) that can readily hold the M11 and 4 lenses (1 attached to the body). Everyone talks about "heavy". My SL3 with just the 24-90 is pretty darned heavy. My D850 Nikon with 24-70 is a brick and a half. I can carry the above Oberwerth and 4 lenses all day. I just think M shooters are spoiled. And I don't intend my comments to sound critical at all, just makes me realize how compact the M system is. I wonder how much the M11-V will weigh....
My M11 kit is mainly about travel and not so much portraits. The 75APO has a somewhat uneasy place in the bag. The rest of my base kit (subject to adaptation) is the 21SEM and 35APO-Summicron.
The 75APO is heavy, but its straight walled barrel shape stows in the bag efficiently, and the integrated hood, close focusing capability, and system-compatible filter size make it hard to replace with anything else I've found.
My issue with it (apart from the weight) is that the optical design seems to be showing its age. It's missing the high frequency detail that I want from a well corrected travel lens. I had my lens checked by Leica, so it's within spec, although there could be better copies out there. I do like the way it draws, and it's certainly fine for portraits, but I'd rather that role be filled by the Lux 50 or VM 75 Nokton which I already have for that (or the 75 Lux, which I do not).
Technically, the 75APO is a digital era lens, but when it came out digital sensors were about on par with film. I'd like to see an updated version which retains the aforementioned features I like about the current model but redesigned for today's 60MP sensors. This isn't a fault with with a lens that was probably quite extraordinary when it came out, it's just a mismatch with my needs nowadays in a system otherwise lacking suited alternatives.
I feel as if Leica has been neglecting modernization of the M len's line while they focus on SL. I get it, but its frustrating. They certainly haven't forgotten how to work miracles -- the tiny 35APO-Summicron is as extraordinary as its price. I hope they get around to a more widespread M refresh soon.
If the fine resolution issue doesn't bother you, and you can forgive the weight, the 75APO checks a lot of boxes. Sharpness is already good, centrally, at f2. Stopping down a stop or so brings in the corners. Resolution quickly gets pretty even across the (flat enough) field as you stop down, and gains come quite slowly after the initial clicks (although optimum is still probably between f4 and 5.6). It's not a large diameter lens, but its length does result in some viewfinder blockage (not too bad); more so with the hood extended.
For me, the 75APO is still the best compromise currently available for my needs, but I keep checking Leica Rumors and here, hoping to see an alternative emerge. Meanwhile, this is one of the limitations of using such a quaint system.
I think Leica's 90mm APO is just too bulky for the system. (Not if you're OK with the 135 But, I think it beats the 75APO if you're willing to haul it.
To me, the other best option is the new VM 90mm Ultron APO. I don't own it, but from the samples and comparisons I've seen it looks optically superior to both of the Leica APOs for less money. IIRC, it has about the same overall volume as the 75APO, but lighter. It's both shorter and fatter -- seems like there might be more viewfinder blockage that way, on net. No integrated hood (and the one it has is a bulky mess), no close focus, and atypical filter size for the system; or at least my system. I decided to stick with my 75APO, for now, but this is potentially a better option, depending on your priorities. 90 is pretty close to 75.
Other alternatives: I have the VM 75 Nokton, but to me it's more of a character portrait lens and not what I'm looking for for travel. (The same seem to be the case for other 75s too.) It drops character and becomes modern stopped down, but then there's the annoying hood, bugle shape, and ergos I've never gotten along with. I also have the VM 50 APO which could probably outresolve the 75APO even after you cropped it down to 75mm equivalent. But, it's another big/heavy lens, and it's too close to 35 (and I'm 'a 35 guy'), and the target here is a medium tele. The 90 macro seems to lose out in resolution to the 75APO, but what a novel and compact travel package it is.
Hoping someone knows about a hidden jewel I've somehow missed...
Personally, apart from weight, I felt the 75mm APO was better than the 90mm APO from an image quality perspective - that floating lenses element system helps and the better MFD means you don't lose much bokeh if at all vs the 90mm APO. I also ended up preferring the shorter focus throw of the 75mm. I do think the 75mm APO only gets really good at f2.8 for me though.
I do agree and think both the 75mm APO and 90mm APO are clearly a bit long in the tooth. I don't see a better option for the size though - my guess is leica would probably update the 90mm APO first but we'll see what they come up with.
There is just more small and light 90mm options than 75mm. I tried CV Color Skopar 90 f2.8, 90 Elmarit. I think ZM 85/4 suppose to be a very good travel tele. F4 may be limiting for portrait purposes. At 85mm you are probably so close to 90, might as well get the CV and Leica options. I have to think a small 75mm Color Skopar is on the pipeline.
crf59 wrote:
I don't know why the 90 APO doesn't get more love. I think it's a stellar lens and not much heavier than the 75 APO (which I also have). My regular kit when I travel is the 21 SEM, 35 Lux, 50 Lux and 90 APO.
The 90 APO has a reputation as difficult to focus and for Leica to RF focus calibrate. Whether true or not... In any case, like probably most M users, I went through a range of lenses and combinations before settling on what seems to work best for me. And like you, I prefer 90 over 75, which I found to be too close to 50. Rather than 35 I usually prefer 28, otherwise, I'm in agreement with you: 21 SEM and 50 Lux in the other positions. 90AA often gets swapped out for the 90/4 Macro to make a much more compact travel kit.
For the OP: Just to echo a previous comment, I too was impressed by the 75 Summarit when I had the chance to try one. I thought it was slightly better than the 90 Summarit I had at the time (sharper, less CA), but as mentioned above, I prefer 50/90 lens spacing over 50/75 or 35/75. I have not used the 75 APO but images from it look very much like the 50 Lux ASPH in respect to character/rendering. If you like the Lux ASPH look, then the APO would seem to be a complementary choice if you plan to work at or close to wide open a lot. If stopped down, then I'd probably get the Summarit (be aware that the f/2.5 version had 90cm MFD, not sure about the f/2.4 version). It seemed like a very consistent performer across its aperture range.
Since the ZM85/4 was mentioned above, I'll add that the brief time I had with it very early in my Leica 'growth' phase, I thought it was technically competent but I didn't overly like it much. It was physically long all the time. Instead I opted for the 1.5 stop faster 90 Summarit that was overall more versatile on the M9 at the time with its relatively poor high ISO performance. I eventually circled back to a slow 85/90 with the 90/4 Macro specifically to address my travel needs because it's collapsible. And even if not collapsed in storage, it doesn't seem as long as the ZM (maybe it is, but it just doesn't seem like it). But the 90/4 is a massive premium just to get a collapsible design. Perhaps it's another niche that Cosina could exploit to undercut Leica in a future slow tele lens release.
gordec wrote:
Aight, I think I'm going to trade my 50 Lux for an APO. Maybe 75mm is my calling. I don't like more than 3 lenses in my kit. 21/35/75 seems to be the best option.
That..or..21mm, 35mm, 90mm Macro-Elmer. For travel, the size of this 90mm is quite compelling, but it is not a fast lens, so you give up some of that 75mm 2.0 goodness..but since it is a 90mm, you probably get close to 75mm f/2.8 bokeh.
I don’t know if this link works, but Matt Osborne is one of my favorites…. I’ve only just received this lens and am waiting to get my film back. Tested for sharpness on M11M..It is sharp..
bwcolor wrote:
That..or..21mm, 35mm, 90mm Macro-Elmer. For travel, the size of this 90mm is quite compelling, but it is not a fast lens, so you give up some of that 75mm 2.0 goodness..but since it is a 90mm, you probably get close to 75mm f/2.8 bokeh.
I don’t know if this link works, but Matt Osborne is one of my favorites…. I’ve only just received this lens and am waiting to get my film back. Tested for sharpness on M11M..It is sharp..
I saw his review on youtube for the 90 Elmar. I still feel 90 is a bit tight for my needs. I agree it's a very cool looking lens. I thought about it many times especially when the listing comes with the macro adapter.
gordec wrote:
I saw his review on youtube for the 90 Elmar. I still feel 90 is a bit tight for my needs. I agree it's a very cool looking lens. I thought about it many times especially when the listing comes with the macro adapter.
Can’t say that I disagree with your “bit tight” analysis. For me, I’ve never traveled with a lens longer than 50mm.. and rarely use 50mm.. so my time in Tokyo with the 75mm was new to me. I’ll certainly use it for travels in the future..
But, I think it beats the 75APO if you're willing to haul it.