p.4 #1 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Your obsession with me is flattering, love. 😍
johnvanr wrote:
When you’re around a bit longer, you will get to know Imagemaster and RoamingScott a bit better. They have ‘personalities.’ That’s why some people hide some other people. Now, we all have our pet peeves and ticks here, as you will also learn when you stick around.
p.4 #2 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Jaree wrote:
Correct. I let the sensor and lens decide what the world view should be. And that's why I prefer zooms for travel - being able to frame that picture of a far away Icelandic church in the mountains at precisely 315mm with no after the fact fiddling with cropping is priceless.
So you feel a 3:2 aspect ratio is the very best for all your compositions? A 4:3 or even square might not be stronger for some images?
p.4 #3 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Are you sure it wasn’t 314.89mm? Or 315.18674mm? How many decimal places is precise enough for this kind of work? And which zoom do you use that lets you dial in that kind of precision?
Jaree wrote:
Correct. I let the sensor and lens decide what the world view should be. And that's why I prefer zooms for travel - being able to frame that picture of a far away Icelandic church in the mountains at precisely 315mm with no after the fact fiddling with cropping is priceless.
p.4 #4 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
The Fuji GFX system was the one where I first discovered that I could shoot in a different ratio than native but the raw retained the full sensor resolution. I then found out that a lot of the newer Sony cameras will do the same but with fewer options to select.
I use in-camera cropping as a way to alter my own shooting behavior. I found that shooting in 4:5 was a good way to defeat my own tendency to push elements too far into the edge of a 3:2 frame. Elements that would then be cut off or be unpleasantly close to the edge if I printed 8x10.
p.4 #5 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
johnvanr wrote:
Back to cropping. My take is that it very much depends and it’s not something one can have a hard rule about, unless one practices a very narrow style of photography. Thus I don’t think not cropping shows a photograph or photographer is somehow better.
I can’t speak for Cartier-Bresson, but his insistence that his images remain uncropped makes me think of writers who don’t want their editors to change a single word, as if their output is 100% perfect. Bresson had some killer shots, but many of them weren’t.
Not even HCB entirely eschewed an occasional crop, apparently.
Related to the “many of them weren’t” point, there’s a story about Ansel Adams. I may not be able to relate it with perfect accuracy, but the basic idea was this: Photographer Alan Ross, one of his assistants, was assigned to go through Ansel’s catalog of negatives and make contact prints of all of them. Having had this ostensibly remarkable experience, he was later asked what most impressed him about it. He reportedly. said that what impressed him the most was the astounding number of banal record shots among the famous gems.
Aug 20, 2025 at 09:03 AM
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p.4 #6 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Talking about cropping and not cropping in my view has to be thought about in terms of capturing the scene vs reimagining your shots. HCB cared about getting the shot right when taking it and capturing the most compelling composition, but we can of course plan to crop and that can be part of getting the shot right and getting that compelling composition when we take it. If I set my viewfinder to APS-C mode and compose my shot from that mode I am cropping, but I am also trying to get my shot right as I am shooting it (and there might be compelling reasons to do this as I can't get closer and I don't have time to change lenses). This isn't just a digital thing either. If I am shooting a Leica M and I have a 50mm lens on the camera but compose the shot using the 75mm frame lines then I am planning on cropping and picking my composition accordingly, but I am still trying to get that compelling composition in the moment. Note with all Sony cameras I can add up to 4 frame lines to do planned compositions in this way. None of that violates the spirit of what HCB advocated. Cropping in and of itself is not against HCB's position that one ought to try to capture the decisive moment with a compelling composition.
That said, us mere mortals don't have anything like the artistic skills of HCB. We often miss that decisive moment. We often don't get a compelling composition in that decisive moment. We often need to slow down and plan and try to create a longer window to get a decisive moment captured with a compelling composition. When we can't do that, and as Dan's last post noted even the greatest photographers don't get it right a lot of the time, what do we do? When that happens--and for me it happens a lot--it is useful to reimagine the shot. That often involves a very different type of cropping. When I reimagine my shots I can fairly often, but still not as often as I like, make it at least a little better by cropping at least a little. This is a different sort of cropping, but for me an important part of the process too.
I really am just pointing out that all forms of cropping are not equal. Some crops can and should be planned as the way to capture the shot you want to get. Other crops are about reimagining the shot you took and making it better. Both are valid ways to work, but only the reimagining type of cropping is the sort of thing that some photographers like HCB tried to warn against. That is a good warning, but, IMO, not realistic for most of us as we can often improve our work by reimagining it.
p.4 #7 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Greetings lethimcook,
As a former academic (30+ years professor of architectural design and theory) and lifelong photographer let me add to the discussion with a few things picked up along the way.
1. Cropping is a good thing. It's a tool that used properly can make an image better. Ansel Adams cropped, Edward Weston cropped, and so forth. It's part of the creative process.
2. Don't overly obsess about camera. It's only 1/3rd of the creative process to make an image. Adams wrote a series of books called the Negative, the Camera, and the Print to describe the photographic process. I've heard restated today as See, Capture, Process. Of these, Seeing and Processing require the most time and effort to master.
3. About Seeing - I don't think I caught what you want to take images of. That would help understand what kind of gear would make the most sense and how important cropping and output size will be to you. For instance, my principal interest is architectural photography (duh) and I need to shoot images with sufficient space for perspective corrections. You may not need this. Tell us what you're interested in.
4. One of my mentors said it best - "It's art, rules are made to be learned and then ignored."
5. Invest in equipment you like and want to use. Go to a camera store, handle the cameras and lenses, and buy the one that feels best in your hand. For me, I like manual focus primes and enjoy using them. But I also shoot like I'm still using a large format camera which is slow and deliberate. You may want something else.
6. Go look at photographic prints (not online). There is something powerful about seeing a completed work. The size of the image, the material its printed on, the process all give a finished photograph life. It helps inspire you in your own work.
p.4 #9 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
johnvanr
Yup, everyone knows what one of the internet's oldest adage is and no forum or online community is free from them. And everyone's entitled to label whomever they like.
I hope that I can grow here and learn with those who want to put-up with my approach and ideas while hoping those who may have a pet-peeve remain courteous.
bmike-vt
Everyone approaches a hobby in their own way and everyone learns differently (learning through action, learning through discourse, etc). I certainly kept myself in the kitchen for a very long time, probably too long. At the same time there is a saying that goes if I was given 100 hours to cut down a tree, I would spend the first 98 hours sharpening my axe.
But your words hold a lot of impact and truth. Will keep this in mind moving forward!
p.4 #10 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Well, it looks like the 'indoctrination' has fully commenced with lots of opinions/feedback. Glad to see you are still here @Lethimcook. Over time you'll find that there are other FM'ers with a slightly more subtle style when it comes to them commenting on threads they choose to engage in.
p.4 #11 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Lethimcook wrote:
bmike-vt
Everyone approaches a hobby in their own way and everyone learns differently (learning through action, learning through discourse, etc). I certainly kept myself in the kitchen for a very long time, probably too long. At the same time there is a saying that goes if I was given 100 hours to cut down a tree, I would spend the first 98 hours sharpening my axe.
But your words hold a lot of impact and truth. Will keep this in mind moving forward!
Tools need to be sharpened, but sharp tools are not a sign of a master craftsman. The work speaks for itself.
You are hitting all my personal pressure points:
I spent a long part of my life riding bikes. I’ve ridden carbon fiber racing bikes, a custom titanium bike I had built for dirt roads and 200,300 and 400km events (that I brought with me when we moved to Europe), I have ridden my single speed mountain bike with camping gear, and I have done centuries on dirt roads in Vermont on my fixed gear cyclocross framed frankenbike. I still have the giant cargo bike I put two kids on with their school bags, groceries, etc. I even for a time had some cool Dutch bikes I imported thinking about opening a business.
I also taught woodworking and fabrication, as well as design at the university level. I have hand built timber frames and furniture, restored barns, and now do mainly design of custom projects. I used to sharpen my own chisels and planes. I even restored a broad axe from a flea market just so I could experience hand hewing beams…
I make images now to feed a part of me that since I don’t ‘make things’ anymore. Having done art - architecture and then craft school and then working with my hands for so long (drawing, making) - making images is what works for me now, at a specific point in my life.
We all love to analyze - it’s part of working with tools. Just don’t get stuck in analysis paralysis - if you make compelling images no one will care that the coin on the ground in the far lower left corner of your image is less sharp than what’s happening in the middle of the frame.
Use your tools to make things. When they need sharpening spend the time to care for them. And when you need a new tool to do a specific job or to make a specific image - research, evaluate and then move on - otherwise you will never get that tree cut down, because if you use it - the axe is never ever perfectly sharp.
p.4 #12 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
johnvanr wrote:
When you’re around a bit longer, you will get to know Imagemaster and RoamingScott a bit better. They have ‘personalities.’ That’s why some people hide some other people.
Don't forget gdanmitchell and a number of others.
I sent RoamingScott a'roaming, but sadly he reappears when someone quotes him.
Then there are others that have no sense of humor.
I would never hide myself. Besides, I don't think I am allowed to.
p.4 #13 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
There is no photograph in the world that is uncropped.
When you put a lens on your camera and aim it at the world, you crop the scene with the camera and show only that part of it that you select. Choosing what is and is not in a photograph and how the contents of the image are arranged are what we do.
I think that implies that cropping, per se, is not really an issue – in fact, that it is fundamental to photography.
This might lead to some questions:
Why might some think it is fine to crop the world with the camera itself but not with other parts of the photographic process?
If I have a 35mm lens on my camera and I see a subject that is best photographed with a 50mm lens, am I not cropping if I switch lenses?
If I have the same lens but instead decide to act quickly and shoot with the 35mm lens and plan to crop that to the 50mm angle-of-view in post, how is that a problem?
Beyond all of that, opinions ranging from “cropping is unacceptable” to “cropping is great” are just individual opinions, not moral laws. Each photographer is free to decide for himself or herself what rules to follow in such cases — and, in fact, if you become familiar with the work of many photographers you will encounter the full range of approaches to the question.
More important than trying to sort out what kinds of cropping are supposedly good or bad is to pay attention to the effects of cropping on the way photographs work. That’s a lot like how we can approach the elements of composition — it isn’t about composing “correctly” (or following so-called “rules of composition), it is about understanding the effects of different compositional choices and d how to use them to produce desired effects in photographs.
p.4 #16 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Imagemaster wrote:
Don't forget gdanmitchell and a number of others.
I sent RoamingScott a'roaming, but sadly he reappears when someone quotes him.
Then there are others that have no sense of humor.
I would never hide myself. Besides, I don't think I am allowed to.
You're a cutie patootie, Tony Bologna! No post of your will ever send me a'roamin'!
Aug 20, 2025 at 01:24 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.4 #17 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
Lethimcook wrote:
Back on topic. AmbientMike I think that math is correct but to connect that idea to Driften's reply they mentioned Mark Gaeler. I also leaned heavily on his testing with cropping and I believe he mentioned 4k monitors are around 8 megapixels. So I think that a 6mp might seem nasty when you think in relation to 24mp but its not too bad in the contexts of how most images are viewed these days. Not sure what the data is on what consumer monitors these days but I myself don't even have a 4k monitor.
I did the math on a macbook with a liquid retina display because that seems to be a popular computer. Turns out that the 3024x1964 screen is basically 6mp (5.94mp)...Show more →
Yes, my math is right , at least I certainly hope I didn't screw up these basic calculations. I think its pretty obvious 24mp 4000x6000 file cropped 50% to 3000x2000 is 6 mp and a de facto m4/3 size sensor. And 70%, 0.7*0.7=0.49 so slightly less than half the pixels, 49%.
But I never said 6mp crop is nasty, you might be surprised that the older cameras are still excellent quality (i've certainly shot 8mp aps a lot lately, anyway.) Just looking at pixels,though, I mean, I dont think 20mp p&s or phone having tiny sensor is going to be good vs ff heavily cropped. So I dont tend to say it'll be good cropped, due to pixels, because it has more than 4k amount of them.
Video used to be 480x640, still fine because most people are on a phone on YouTube, TikTok, IG etc. Even 1080p is only 2mp , not sure if there's much use for 4k video yet. Monitors, internet is known as a low res medium in general
p.4 #18 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
You got mixed up with precision vs accuracy.
bmike-vt wrote:
Are you sure it wasn’t 314.89mm? Or 315.18674mm? How many decimal places is precise enough for this kind of work? And which zoom do you use that lets you dial in that kind of precision?
p.4 #20 · Thinking out loud: thoughts on cropping, zooms & primes
gdanmitchell wrote:
Not even HCB entirely eschewed an occasional crop, apparently.
Related to the “many of them weren’t” point, there’s a story about Ansel Adams. I may not be able to relate it with perfect accuracy, but the basic idea was this: Photographer Alan Ross, one of his assistants, was assigned to go through Ansel’s catalog of negatives and make contact prints of all of them. Having had this ostensibly remarkable experience, he was later asked what most impressed him about it. He reportedly. said that what impressed him the most was the astounding number of banal record shots among the famous gems.
As you probably know, this sole crop (not really a crop in the sense in which the word is used in this thread) in HCB's repertoire occurred because the image was shot through an iron rail fence and the iron rail obscured one edge of the image. So, the black blurred obstruction of the iron rail along the left border was eliminated, as HCB planned to do in composing the shot. I don't think there is any real example of HCB cropping an image that was otherwise composed, which is quite remarkable considering how many of his images were made quickly.
