p.1 #1 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Any brand would be in an odd position to make one, although recent trends could lead to things like that from major players save the M-mount though.
But Cosina did make a pretty good Rangefinder series until recently still, 2015, it’s crazy and it was the Bessa R series.
Espson even did a digital version before the first Leica one.
Everything is already in place, Cosina even makes the lenses that would go with it.
I’d like it to be like a Bessa R, simple and sturdy, a bit less plasticky than the Bessa R were, no screen, no video, just the same full frame 24MP sensor that everybody uses everywhere for the last ten years but without the AA filter.
And we’re done, reasonably priced and it’s perfect.
p.1 #2 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Sonnar-7 wrote:
And we’re done, reasonably priced and it’s perfect.
Would you buy such a digital Bessa R?
I gave up thinking that any camera manufacturer theses days will still release a "reasonably" priced camera. Even Sony, Canon, Nikon etc cameras now go easily for > $3K per piece of new FF camera. Cameras more and more get into a luxury segment for professions or enthusiasts since the majority is using a cellphone camera.
Other than this, I agree with your suggestion. To cut down on pricing, maybe making it with EVF instead of rangefinder?
p.1 #3 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
retrofocus wrote:
I gave up thinking that any camera manufacturer theses days will still release a "reasonably" priced camera. Even Sony, Canon, Nikon etc cameras now go easily for > $3K per piece of new FF camera. Cameras more and more get into a luxury segment for professions or enthusiasts since the majority is using a cellphone camera.
Other than this, I agree with your suggestion. To cut down on pricing, maybe making it with EVF instead of rangefinder?
Yeah prices have gone up for entry level cameras, but they are so video oriented, it might explain the costs maybe but it could not be such a part of every model, it annoys me because all cameras have that AA filter to accommodate a trend.
Also the entry level or other classes, I wish it was more oriented by purpose of the camera than to fit in a price range in holding back on the same options.
Regarding the evf, I suggested a true rangefinder because Cosina has that part sorted out already.
It’s not just cut down on pricing but to just give us what is needed for photography and leave the rest behind, but it could do both.
p.1 #5 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
johnvanr wrote:
I would if priced right and, as you say, it doesn’t feel plasticky. I had the film versions, but never felt they were well built.
I had one too, it was far from terrible but a bit lacking, I feel it could be improved with just a little more heft(metal) to it.
The models starting with the R2a/m versions were already an improvement on the base Bessa R.
p.1 #6 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
I suspect an evf based camera will always be cheaper to produce than a hand assembled/ calibrated optomechanical rangefinder camera today. I would buy an evf version at the right price. Ricoh would be an interesting partner in a collaboration with Cosina on such a project. Such a camera might severly undercut the forthcoming evf based M so “politically” Cosina might avoid such a move, I don’t know.
p.1 #7 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
I don’t think there is a big enough place in the market to compete with Leica for a camera with an optical rangefinder. The target audience is relatively small and will likely just go for the „real thing“ unless you undercut them so hard on pricing that it hurts your margin too much.
That said I think there might be room for an EVF-based camera that is mechanically much simpler. If it had M mount, a 6bit reader, on-sensor PDAF and good software providing manual focus assist tools that more closely mimic a „digital rangefinder“, that would be interesting to many, even as a 2nd camera in addition to a Leica.
Where I’m not 100% sure is whether such a camera would need to have native M mount. Could be smarter to make it in L mount and just build an adapter for M. It could still be rangefinder-styled and have the firmware features mentioned above, but with the upside of having much broader appeal and access to AF lenses..
p.1 #8 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
I would not want it based on something like a Bessa R. I had an R3a and it was a cheap clanky feeling thing next to any M.
A digital Zeiss Ikon ZM would be much better. But seeing that you can get the ‘real thing’ - an M240 - for about $3k or less used, the Zeiss IMO would have to come under that price point.
How well is the Pixii selling? That actually is a cool design and now is in FF. Plus it looks like a Minolta CLE!
p.1 #9 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I suspect an evf based camera will always be cheaper to produce than a hand assembled/ calibrated optomechanical rangefinder camera today. I would buy an evf version at the right price. Ricoh would be an interesting partner in a collaboration with Cosina on such a project. Such a camera might severly undercut the forthcoming evf based M so “politically” Cosina might avoid such a move, I don’t know.
A Ricoh partnership would be awesome. Ricoh has a beautiful legacy from the film era. And they had some neat rangefinders.
p.1 #10 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
fjablo wrote:
I don’t think there is a big enough place in the market to compete with Leica for a camera with an optical rangefinder. The target audience is relatively small and will likely just go for the „real thing“ unless you undercut them so hard on pricing that it hurts your margin too much.
That said I think there might be room for an EVF-based camera that is mechanically much simpler. If it had M mount, a 6bit reader, on-sensor PDAF and good software providing manual focus assist tools that more closely mimic a „digital rangefinder“, that would be interesting to many, even as a 2nd camera in addition to a Leica.
Where I’m not 100% sure is whether such a camera would need to have native M mount. Could be smarter to make it in L mount and just build an adapter for M. It could still be rangefinder-styled and have the firmware features mentioned above, but with the upside of having much broader appeal and access to AF lenses.....Show more →
I would be adamant to the no autofocus and no video part. To avoid the race and laments to the technical part.
p.1 #11 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Desmolicious wrote:
I would not want it based on something like a Bessa R. I had an R3a and it was a cheap clanky feeling thing next to any M.
A digital Zeiss Ikon ZM would be much better. But seeing that you can get the ‘real thing’ - an M240 - for about $3k or less used, the Zeiss IMO would have to come under that price point.
How well is the Pixii selling? That actually is a cool design and now is in FF. Plus it looks like a Minolta CLE!
I have no idea on how the Pixii is doing but I do like the images I’ve seen it produces. It’s reminiscent of what I like in the M9 and M240 pics.
I would still love an alternative to the M240 but it’s a serious contender indeed.
Cosina is making some Zeiss stuff so a digital Zeiss Ikon ZM would be cool and it could launch the Blue Dot, that would show them.
p.1 #12 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Sonnar-7 wrote:
A Ricoh partnership would be awesome. Ricoh has a beautiful legacy from the film era. And they had some neat rangefinders.
Exactly. They also had an M-mount (via an APS C M Mount module), modular digital camera - the GXR - quite a while back as well so they do have experience already with something close . That camera might have been a flop at the time (I seem to recall they were heavily discounted when new) so that might give them pause but the market has dramatically changed since then.
p.1 #14 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
As Huss has said above, I am not sure what such a new camera could bring above that we already have in the Leica M typ240 camera @ 2500-3000 EUR. Given we can still find batteries for it.
p.1 #15 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Sonnar-7 wrote:
Any brand would be in an odd position to make one, although recent trends could lead to things like that from major players save the M-mount though.
But Cosina did make a pretty good Rangefinder series until recently still, 2015, it’s crazy and it was the Bessa R series.
Espson even did a digital version before the first Leica one.
Everything is already in place, Cosina even makes the lenses that would go with it.
I’d like it to be like a Bessa R, simple and sturdy, a bit less plasticky than the Bessa R were, no screen, no video, just the same full frame 24MP sensor that everybody uses everywhere for the last ten years but without the AA filter.
And we’re done, reasonably priced and it’s perfect.
I believe Cosina reads these boards, so it's definitely the right place to post this. I really hope they pay attention to what you're saying, as I would be very interested as well.
The main issue is price. These rangefinder cameras aren't cheap to make, and shooters know they can often get a used M240 instead of a new model from a non-Leica company.
p.1 #16 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
catacore wrote:
As Huss has said above, I am not sure what such a new camera could bring above that we already have in the Leica M typ240 camera @ 2500-3000 EUR. Given we can still find batteries for it.
I think it can bring a lot just by existing, the fact that there is actually only one camera for that niche is more a testament to the need than a counterpoint.
p.1 #17 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Fred Miranda wrote:
I believe Cosina reads these boards, so it's definitely the right place to post this. I really hope they pay attention to what you're saying, as I would be very interested as well.
The main issue is price. These rangefinder cameras aren't cheap to make, and shooters know they can often get a used M240 instead of a new model from a non-Leica company.
I didn’t know Cosina could wander here, it’s furthermore a fitting place to have that discussion then. It would be nice to have their point of view on the matter.
When I used the priced right notion, I meant I believe it can still be expensive but more reasonable than a 10000 dollars camera, I think there is a large margin to manoeuver. Cosina can still makes money with it and they have most of the camera already designed.
I don’t think the M240 is a true menace to a new rangefinder as a digital Bessa would be.
The M240 is the only option there is in a 2000-3000 price range if you want a brick like stills camera, and it’s more than a decade old and used for that price. One model only when there are so many cameras that are all basically the same in the full frame hybrid reflex like family.
I used myself as an exemple, I look for a full frame brick like photo centric camera, simple, bare with an analog feel, but at a fair price and there is nothing but the M9(I own one) and the M240 to fit that want. I think there is room for something new. Besides I’m warming up to the idea of a blue dot.
p.1 #18 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Sonnar-7 wrote:
I didn’t know Cosina could wander here, it’s furthermore a fitting place to have that discussion then. It would be nice to have their point of view on the matter.
When I used the priced right notion, I meant I believe it can still be expensive but more reasonable than a 10000 dollars camera, I think there is a large margin to manoeuver. Cosina can still makes money with it and they have most of the camera already designed.
I don’t think the M240 is a true menace to a new rangefinder as a digital Bessa would be.
The M240 is the only option there is in a 2000-3000 price range if you want a brick like stills camera, and it’s more than a decade old and used for that price. One model only when there are so many cameras that are all basically the same in the full frame hybrid reflex like family.
I used myself as an exemple, I look for a full frame brick like photo centric camera, simple, bare with an analog feel, but at a fair price and there is nothing but the M9(I own one) and the M240 to fit that want. I think there is room for something new. Besides I’m warming up to the idea of a blue dot.
This discussion about cheaper made rangefinder cameras is not a new one. Leica can consider itself very fortunate that no other manufacturer tried to challenge them here with much more affordable M-mount based cameras. Zeiss tried with the PiXii but came with a Leica-based price tag - not many jumped to this one.
My hope is still that we see something coming from China. TTArtisan and 7Artisans are already well established for M-mount gear, and it is possible that they might venture into more affordable M-mount cameras - with or without rangefinder and EVF instead. If we hope pricing to get significant lower, Chinese camera/lens companies are my only hope here.
p.1 #19 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
retrofocus wrote:
This discussion about cheaper made rangefinder cameras is not a new one. Leica can consider itself very fortunate that no other manufacturer tried to challenge them here with much more affordable M-mount based cameras. Zeiss tried with the PiXii but came with a Leica-based price tag - not many jumped to this one.
My hope is still that we see something coming from China. TTArtisan and 7Artisans are already well established for M-mount gear, and it is possible that they might venture into more affordable M-mount cameras - with or without rangefinder and EVF instead. If we hope pricing to get significant lower, Chinese camera/lens companies are my only hope here. ...Show more →
The discussion is not new but I feel it’s more doable than ever. There are some 24MP, 30MP and even 42MP full frame sensors that might have become available at a good price for manufacturers, after all the hybrid full frame extravaganza is only a decade old or so and it was the beginning. Now is a better time.
And there is room for new players as you said.
There is a want for a product like that but it’s not a sure venture even so.
p.1 #20 · A Safe Place to Harass I mean Ask Cosina for a Digital Bessa Rangefinder Camera
Sonnar-7 wrote:
The discussion is not new but I feel it’s more doable than ever. There are some 24MP, 30MP and even 42MP full frame sensors that might have become available at a good price for manufacturers, after all the hybrid full frame extravaganza is only a decade old or so and it was the beginning. Now is a better time.
And there is room for new players as you said.
There is a want for a product like that but it’s not a sure venture even so.
Even then, the cost of making a reliable, accurate rangefinder mechanism was the most challenging part. And likely more expensive than the sensor. That’s the real issue. And each new camera body needs the RF mechanism to be rejigged to suit. Not a trivial task.
I think the issue is that the desire to have another alternative is for it to be cheaper. And that’s actually difficult for a product that sells in small quantities like an M. Even the Pixii isn’t cheap. There’ll alway be a group that’ll say it should have been $500 cheaper or it’s not close enough to the Leica variant.
Since we can’t even get Fujifilm to make an XPro4, I think an actual rangefinder alternative is unlikely. Pixii does exist though and maybe they need your support.
