p.1 #1 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
I'm old enough to remember when highly paid photographers used the Canon 1D to shoot everything and anything and had no problem printing high quality photos for their clients.
I bought a used XT5 which I hope to receive in a few days, upgrading from my X-E2 and I also bought a Viltrox 75 1.2 lens today to add to my existing lenses.
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong in the following thought process?
1. Put the 75 1.2 on the camera.
2. Set the aspect ratio on the XT5 to 1:1
3. Turn on the Digital Teleconverter and set it to 2.0
4. Set the framing lines to 9
5. Shoot framing the subject so that everything I want to capture is in the top 6 squares of the viewfinder.
6. Crop in post using 3:2 ratio basically removing the bottom third of the 1:1 square image
My understanding is that the XT5's native files are 7728x5152
Shooting with the Digital Teleconverter enabled results in size S files: 3888x2592
Shooting with 1:1 aspect ratio and the digital converter should result in a file that is 2592x2592
Cropping that JPG to top 2/3 of the resulting image should yield a file that is 2592x1728
That's still a bit larger than the 2464x1648 files the Canon 1D produces.
Meanwhile if I shoot the viltrox at F1.4 i should be getting an image that is equivalent to ..... 75 * 1.5 (APS C) * 2.0 (Digital TC) * 1.5 (final crop) .... which works out to 337.5mm at F2 equivalent on Full frame.
Where am I wrong?
P.S. To clarify... yes I know any photo that has sufficient detail can be cropped, but I think it would be MUCH easier to compose an image that you already KNOW will be cropped when you can take advantage of the DT and then the grid lines to crop the 1:1 down to a further 1.5x 3:2
p.1 #2 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
I don't dive into the tech of digital camera much. But I feel that starting with a good lens of appropriate focal length and capturing a low res photo is going to look better than starting with high res wider shot and massively cropping to get the focal length you really want. Are you trying to avoid buying a telephoto?
p.1 #3 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
There is a difference in having a few big fat pixels and not cropping (1D) and having many tiny pixels and cropping (Fuji digital teleconverter).
You can just crop any example X-T5 file out there to get a ROUGH estimation of final IQ, however Fuji does actually do some extra processing before the digital TC jpeg file is created that Lightroom/C1 won't that lends to higher IQ.
Overall, I found IQ completely unacceptable at 2.0x on the X-T5 sensor for any application outside of an IG post, where 1.4x was usable in a pinch. In general, use the right lens and don't rely on cropping.
Here are full resolution samples I did comparing the 3 modes:
p.1 #6 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
First I didn’t do all the math, but I suspect the OP did, and yes if you crop the XT5 image to 1/10th its native size, you’ll end up with a 4mp image just like the original 1D had.
However as Scott mentioned, there is something to fat pixels that small ones don’t give you, and that’s because generally lenses were better than the fat pixel sensor, so you got nice, clean edges — aka good micro-contrast — out of the gate. Small pixels — and let’s just say super small pixels for the XT5 — don’t play as well since few lenses are up to filling them as cleanly.
As such with today’s cameras, I avoid digital TC altogether and when my lens isn’t long enough I frame the subject in the center, preferably near the focus point, and will crop it out in post later. Doing this I have achieved some excellent 8-ish mp net final images. A caveat is I shoot raw, and so can also easily tweak sharpening and clarity to better play with the heavier than normal crop. You won’t get that same flexibility from an ooc JPEG even if optimally adjusted in cam beforehand.
p.1 #7 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
SGinNorcal wrote:
I don't dive into the tech of digital camera much. But I feel that starting with a good lens of appropriate focal length and capturing a low res photo is going to look better than starting with high res wider shot and massively cropping to get the focal length you really want. Are you trying to avoid buying a telephoto?
I already own a (CONSUMER) telephoto. The fuji 55-200. The IQ is completely reasonable but to be honest I hate carrying that lens because it's one of those damn non-internal zooming lenses and when you have it hanging off your side the dumb zoom extends. Besides It's huge.
If I can get serviceable (for social media) photos using the 75 and the digital telephoto and if I can know that in a pinch, IF I GET LUCKY I could even get a print out of it I'm willing to compromise.
I have prints in my house that I LOVE and that have gotten compliments that were printed 8x10 from an Olympus C2100UZ which shot photos with a resolution of 1600x1200 ... so I figured why wouldn't I be able to get something crazy amazing cropped insanely in with a FAR superior lens and a far superior camera with far superior DR and color?
p.1 #9 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
Jack Flesher wrote:
You get most the superior DR from raw and only a little from the newer JPEG, fwiw.
Agreed 100%
I guess I should clarify... I don't have a big NEED for that long of a reach, but there are some situations where I might want to. I already have my X-E2 set up to shoot RAW+JPG so my expectation is that I will set the X-T5 to also shoot RAW+JPG. I probably will try and see how I feel about RAW+Fine SMALL JPG.
The vast majority of photos will end up being discards.
Some of the photos will probably make it to Facebook/Instagram - for those I expect that in most cases the FINE SMALL JPG will be sufficient.
A very very small minority of photos will be true FOREVER keepers some of which I'll also want to print. For those I will have the RAW file so I'll either use X RAW STUDIO to output the largest file I can and then work with that, or I'll bring it into lightroom (or one of the converters I apparently will have access to with the X-T5) and then photoshop if necessary.
But back to the DR.... a JPG from an XTRAN V sensor will have a LOT better DR than what I used to get from the C2100-UZ :P
p.1 #10 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
AleDiSciascio wrote:
Agreed 100%
I guess I should clarify... I don't have a big NEED for that long of a reach, but there are some situations where I might want to. I already have my X-E2 set up to shoot RAW+JPG so my expectation is that I will set the X-T5 to also shoot RAW+JPG. I probably will try and see how I feel about RAW+Fine SMALL JPG.
The vast majority of photos will end up being discards.
Some of the photos will probably make it to Facebook/Instagram - for those I expect that in most cases the FINE SMALL JPG will be sufficient.
A very very small minority of photos will be true FOREVER keepers some of which I'll also want to print. For those I will have the RAW file so I'll either use X RAW STUDIO to output the largest file I can and then work with that, or I'll bring it into lightroom (or one of the converters I apparently will have access to with the X-T5) and then photoshop if necessary.
But back to the DR.... a JPG from an XTRAN V sensor will have a LOT better DR than what I used to get from the C2100-UZ :P...Show more →
>>But back to the DR.... a JPG from an XTRAN V sensor will have a LOT better DR than what I used to get from the C2100-UZ :P<<
Uh no. With DR400 activated you’ll maybe gain a stop at each end over a basic P&S — good, but not impressively so. And/but at the same time it will fark up your Raw by underexposing it about a stop which can limit shadow detail otherwise usable. Add the exposure back with EC and you eff up the top end of the added jpeg DR. No free lunch. So leave it off if you shoot Raw or Raw+jpeg. JPEG small is more than adequate for IG/FB, but with Small, fine is mostly overkill but doesn’t cost you anything significant in card space either, so yeah. 👍🏻
p.1 #11 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
RoamingScott wrote:
There is a difference in having a few big fat pixels and not cropping (1D) and having many tiny pixels and cropping (Fuji digital teleconverter).
You can just crop any example X-T5 file out there to get a ROUGH estimation of final IQ, however Fuji does actually do some extra processing before the digital TC jpeg file is created that Lightroom/C1 won't that lends to higher IQ.
Overall, I found IQ completely unacceptable at 2.0x on the X-T5 sensor for any application outside of an IG post, where 1.4x was usable in a pinch. In general, use the right lens and don't rely on cropping.
Here are full resolution samples I did comparing the 3 modes:
I should point out that obviously the subject of the image will be a big determination of how or if the image can be used.
That said I took the image you shared that I guess was shot with the 2 DTC, I then cropped it square and then cropped the square image to 3:2, basically doing what I mentioned.
I then applied two quick and dirty unsharp mask (one for microcontrast, one for actual sharpness) and to my eyes if the photo were something worth printing (no offense to your masterpiece but I like people more than trucks) I think it would make a completely decent 8x10 print without a doubt.
And in my experience once you take viewing distance into account that means you can print it basically at any size provided it won't be "pixel peeped"
Here is the resulting image:
Ok I don't know how to link an image from imgur clicking the link gives "bad link".... but if you copy and paste this in a browser it will work: https://imgur.com/a/HeuMH6b
And to see the actual image you'd have to download it. It really is printable
p.1 #13 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
Jack Flesher wrote:
First I didn’t do all the math, but I suspect the OP did, and yes if you crop the XT5 image to 1/10th its native size, you’ll end up with a 4mp image just like the original 1D had.
However as Scott mentioned, there is something to fat pixels that small ones don’t give you, and that’s because generally lenses were better than the fat pixel sensor, so you got nice, clean edges — aka good micro-contrast — out of the gate. Small pixels — and let’s just say super small pixels for the XT5 — don’t play as well since few lenses are up to filling them as cleanly.
As such with today’s cameras, I avoid digital TC altogether and when my lens isn’t long enough I frame the subject in the center, preferably near the focus point, and will crop it out in post later. Doing this I have achieved some excellent 8-ish mp net final images. A caveat is I shoot raw, and so can also easily tweak sharpening and clarity to better play with the heavier than normal crop. You won’t get that same flexibility from an ooc JPEG even if optimally adjusted in cam beforehand. ...Show more →
I definitely agree that there are BETTER ways. Using actual longer glass is one, and the process you describe is another.
My thought process though is that using the Digital TC and shooting RAW+JPG I still have the option of doing what you said while at the same time having the benefit of seeing my composition in camera.
I hope that occasionally the output straight from the camera will be more than acceptable for sharing and fun... and if I somehow end up with an awesome keeper I can go through the process you described
p.1 #14 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
Jack Flesher wrote:
>>But back to the DR.... a JPG from an XTRAN V sensor will have a LOT better DR than what I used to get from the C2100-UZ :P<<
Uh no. With DR400 activated you’ll maybe gain a stop at each end over a basic P&S — good, but not impressively so. And/but at the same time it will fark up your Raw by underexposing it about a stop which can limit shadow detail otherwise usable. Add the exposure back with EC and you eff up the top end of the added jpeg DR. No free lunch. So leave it off if you shoot Raw or Raw+jpeg. JPEG small is more than adequate for IG/FB, but with Small, fine is mostly overkill but doesn’t cost you anything significant in card space either, so yeah. 👍🏻 ...Show more →
p.1 #15 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
The Viltrox 75/1.2 is actually heavier than your 55-200. FWIW, the 70-300 has a lock to prevent lens creep that works really well while being slightly lighter than the 55-200. It sounds like you have a plan for what you want that works for you. To me, it would be easier to work out what framing lines represent your massive crop and then do it all in post with the RAF file. Too bad we can't make custom framing lines.
p.1 #16 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
SGinNorcal wrote:
The Viltrox 75/1.2 is actually heavier than your 55-200. FWIW, the 70-300 has a lock to prevent lens creep that works really well while being slightly lighter than the 55-200. It sounds like you have a plan for what you want that works for you. To me, it would be easier to work out what framing lines represent your massive crop and then do it all in post with the RAF file. Too bad we can't make custom framing lines.
Well I have a plan I want to try out... whether it will work for me is a different question altogether
For now I managed to buy the Viltrox for less than they go for used... so I figure I'll give it a go and see if I like it.
p.1 #17 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
I shot with a pair of EOS 1D bodies for four or five years. For those who haven't used one, they were a high speed 4-megapixel camera, capable of 8 frames per second, and with solid autofocus. While I did make some good photos with those cameras (otherwise I wouldn't have kept my job lol), I was positively thrilled when the 1D Mark II came out with its 8 megapixel CMOS sensor. The extra pixels made a huge difference in print reproduction.
p.1 #18 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
Re "Meanwhile if I shoot the viltrox at F1.4 i should be getting an image that is equivalent to ..... 75 * 1.5 (APS C) * 2.0 (Digital TC) * 1.5 (final crop) .... which works out to 337.5mm at F2 equivalent on Full frame.
Where am I wrong?"
You FF FL equivalent looks correct. You correctly converted 75mm to FF FL, then applied the "manual" crop factor which is 3.
For the equivalent FF DoF, the F1.4 must be multiplied by the same crop factor = 1.4 x1.5 x 3 = F6.3
The equivalent FF ISO is obtained by multiplying the camera ISO by the crop factor squared = 20.25. For example, if the camera ISO is 200, then the cropped image should be equivalent to one obtained with a FF camera set to the same SS, ISO 4000, FL 337.5mm F6.3.
For photographically equivalent images obtained using FF and cropped sensor cameras, the PDR is typically similar, and can be practically the same (check Photonstophotos for examples).
I suggest running the cropped images through Gigapixel or Topaz Photo AI to upscale these to, say 20MP. You may well see a significant improvement in IQ.
p.1 #19 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
kenbennett wrote:
I shot with a pair of EOS 1D bodies for four or five years. For those who haven't used one, they were a high speed 4-megapixel camera, capable of 8 frames per second, and with solid autofocus. While I did make some good photos with those cameras (otherwise I wouldn't have kept my job lol), I was positively thrilled when the 1D Mark II came out with its 8 megapixel CMOS sensor. The extra pixels made a huge difference in print reproduction.
To clarify further for those who never shot the 1D, when Kenbennett says "with solid autofocus" what he means is that that camera, released in 2001 would mop the floor with a Fuji XT5 built 24 years later.
I had several wedding photographer friends who got paid handsomely for their work and who shot the 1D and 5D cameras. Of course all the posed portraiture and large group images were shot with the 5D which for sure produced VASTLY superior images (while having AF performance shockingly inferior to the XT5 ) but a lot of the event itself was shot with the 1Ds and the photos made it easily into the wedding albums.
While I never commaded their fees I also shot weddings for several years and I've printed images for clients where the file was cropped to the point that the source image was at a resolution of 150ppi ROUTINELY and I remember printing one as low as 120ppi which to me and the clients looked great when printed.
Frankly a LOT of it is "how good is the image" ... if the image is good nobody is going to start looking at hair strands to determine how good the microcontrast is and then there's also the fact that you can be smart about how you process the final file and what kind of photo paper you have the image printed on.
p.1 #20 · XT5 using Digital Teleconverter and further crop to get Canon 1D - like files
FTR, ISO is ISO and doesn’t “change” with crop. The ISO noise factor may change, and theoretically it happens at the square of the format factor, but in reality at normal ISO settings it seems to be negligible, or far less than the theoretical value. IME I don’t see it in Fuji X files until ISO 3200 or higher, and then the relative impact seems about linear with crop factor. FWIW. My only point here is I wouldn’t worry about it very much unless you’re at very high ISO.
