p.1 #1 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
I had a book printed in which the reds look dull and dark. All other colors are good.
I should have checked those images using the ICC profile provided by the vendor. Although I looked at several images with soft proofing in Lightroom using the ICC profile, I did not look at the images with the red color. My mistake, yet the vendor is still offering me to make changes and then they will reprint.
I'm having a major problem trying to get the soft proofed images to look like the originals. So much so I might just take those pictures out of the book and reprint.
I'm assuming this is not a rare occurrence. Is there any advice out there for this issue?
Thanks.
Here is an example of an image that has this issue and how I would like it to be printed:
Here is how it was printed (hopefully I've captured it here):
The second image is a screen shot of the soft proof.
p.1 #2 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
Not sure what specific advice you're looking for -- are you wanting to edit the soft proof reds to look like the vibrant reds? It may not be possible if the destination reds you want are outside the gamut of the destination medium; and that's what soft-proofing will show you. Rendering intent and black point compensation matter here as well when you're editing in proof mode. Perceptual is usually best for making things as similar-looking between both spaces as possible; relative colorimetric generally maintains more accurate color for colors that are inside both spaces while balancing look for edge colors; absolute colorimetric is just that, only utilizing colors in both gamuts without skewing any to fit/smooth. BP compensation is usually desired to keep grays neutral and prevent them from tinting during the profile change, but it can mess with final absolute color accuracy. IOW, it's a bucket of tradeoffs you have to choose from...
Regardless, I always edit in proof mode, usually using perceptual rendering intent with BP compensation, and with this I usually get pretty darn close to WYSIWYG for my intended output medium. It isn't perfect, but for me it's usually very close.
All that said, I personally think your proof crop looks fine. Yes the reds are muted relative to the first image, but I don't find them at all problematic.
p.1 #3 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
pulper11 wrote:
I had a book printed in which the reds look dull and dark. All other colors are good.
I should have checked those images using the ICC profile provided by the vendor. Although I looked at several images with soft proofing in Lightroom using the ICC profile, I did not look at the images with the red color. My mistake, yet the vendor is still offering me to make changes and then they will reprint.
I'm having a major problem trying to get the soft proofed images to look like the originals. So much so I might just take those pictures out of the book and reprint.
I'm assuming this is not a rare occurrence. Is there any advice out there for this issue?
Thanks.
Here is an example of an image that has this issue and how I would like it to be printed:
You cannot show those exact colors on their printer. Its not capable. Yet I can show you your options.
First, here is your saturated image plotted within the sRGB color space. I picke the angle to show the reds the best. Not that you have many reds pegged to the limits of sRGB:
]Original image vs sRGB limits[/url]
Here is the same sRGB wireframe limits with the soft proofed version. Note that it cannot support the reds out to the very tip on the left:
]Soft Proofed image vs sRGB[/url]
Also note that the soft proofed version can go to the edge of saturation at a reduced luminosity e.g. instead of L=50 it work at L=~40
So I took that image and reduced the luminosity in Lab mode to abotu 40 and the image below shows full saturated reds that would be supported by the photo book company:
]Soft proofed version with luminosity reduced for reds[/url]
The other direction would be to increase the luminosity yet I don't think you are looking for a brighter version.
p.1 #4 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
Thanks Jack for the reply!
To answer your question, I was hoping to be able to edit the soft proof reds to look like the vibrant reds. I've tried, in lightroom, with the color mixer and point color. So far I have not been able to get too close to the original.
I also appreciate your comment at the end about the proof colors. I showed the book to a friend to get their take and they said basically that if I didn't have an original image to compare it to that I would probably be fine with it.
I'll play around with it some more but may just forget about a reprint. As you say it may not be possible to do what I'm trying to do. This issue affects two spread images in the book as well as a smaller image (out of 90 pages). Not terrible.
p.1 #5 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
Thanks John for the reply!
I will give that a try. As you say it's not exactly what I'm looking for (as that is not possible) but may be closer.
The graphs are very cool and the explanation is helpful.
BTW I just thought of another option. They have different profiles for different papers in their books. I might try those as well to see if they are much different. Of course I'll have to check all the prints this time!
p.1 #6 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
John - I've tried it in Lightroom and it is a good improvement over the soft proofed image above! Right now I've tried luminance to -31 and saturation to +31. All within red.
Thanks!
p.1 #7 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
pulper11 wrote:
John - I've tried it in Lightroom and it is a good improvement over the soft proofed image above! Right now I've tried luminance to -31 and saturation to +31. All within red.
Thanks!
That's great. You are taking exactly the right approach. Leave soft proof on and make adjustments until you are satisfied.
Another angle that helps is to change the hue if that is acceptable. Examining the gamut maps, it appears that the oranges might allow for more saturation over a wider range of luminosities. Usually, you can't change the hue much if the audience expects a specific color, yet I thought it was worth mentioning.
You cannot show those exact colors on their printer. Its not capable. Yet I can show you your options.
First, here is your saturated image plotted within the sRGB color space. I picke the angle to show the reds the best. Not that you have many reds pegged to the limits of sRGB:
p.1 #9 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
buggz wrote:
Wow, please, how did you get those plots?
That is cool.
There are several programs that can do gamut mapping, and I believe most will allow you to open an image and add the RGB data points of such an image into the gamut plot.
I specifically use ColorThink Pro version 3. They have recently released a new version, but I have not upgraded to it yet.
John Wheeler
p.1 #10 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
Hi John:
Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail how you decreased the luminosity in Photoshop? Did you also decrease the a and b?
I use lightroom exclusively regarding any editing and so, when trying to replicate what you did, am at a bit of a loss. In fact I had never even heard of Lab mode prior to your post and had to look that up. Attempts to understand (by looking up) changes to luminosity to get figures like yours with the color picker have been unsuccessful.
Thank you!
p.1 #11 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
pulper11 wrote:
Hi John:
Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail how you decreased the luminosity in Photoshop? Did you also decrease the a and b?
I use lightroom exclusively regarding any editing and so, when trying to replicate what you did, am at a bit of a loss. In fact I had never even heard of Lab mode prior to your post and had to look that up. Attempts to understand (by looking up) changes to luminosity to get figures like yours with the color picker have been unsuccessful.
Thank you!
I don't have the PSD file anymore yet I have another way for you to try while still keeping it in Soft Proof mode.
Place a Hue Sat Adjustment Layer above your picture and in the second to the top drop down box that defaults to Master, change that to Reds (you can fine tune which colors will be impact with the color band and sliders that show up.
Also set this Hue Sat Layer to Luminosity Blend. This will keep the luminosity that comes out of the Hue Sat Adjustment Layer and then use the colors from your original.
In my case I just reduced the Lightness slider to get a nice look in Soft Proof yet you also play with the Saturation (e.g. turn it up).
Using this approach you do not have to mess with Lab mode which makes it easier and a much smaller learning curve.
Hope this is helpful
John Wheeler
]Alternate way to reduce luminosity without Lab Color Space[/url]
p.1 #12 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
Thanks John so much for your help here.
I've tried it quickly with very limited success unfortunately. Nothing to do with your explanation!
I'll take another stab at it over the weekend.
Thanks again!
p.1 #13 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
Other things to consider are...
- whether, and how accurately, your monitor is profiled.
- whether or not the monitor gamut covers the book print gamut.
- whether or not you have the monitor set to an appropriate brightness level.
Here's a link to what I think is an interesting article at CambridgeInColour. It's interesting because it includes the gamuts of different types of printer, and shows the gamuts at different luminance levels. It won't fix your problem but it might improve your understanding of what the cause is. Bear in mind that the website seems to have restricted internet bandwidth, so give it time for the pictures to update.
Separately from that article, I have found a considerable difference in the gamuts printable on matte paper vs glossy or semiglossy paper. Matte is generally more restrictive.
p.1 #14 · adjusting soft proof using ICC profile to look like original
Just looking at the numbers in photoshop alert you that there is an issue with the image.
When I opened the image with the vibrant red in photoshop the CMYK readouts shows C-0!, M100! Y95! K0!.
The ! indicates the RGB color value is out of gamut when converting to CMYK. The image with the darker red shows values of C12% M90% Y76% K2% (a typical “red” in 4 color process).
The Printer you’re working with is very considerate to redo a few pages of your 90 page book. I suspect it might be litho rather than digital, because it’s so easy to deliver a digital hard copy proof to the client. You should work with them to see what can be done to shift the color closer. Sometime you can add a spot 5th color for critical images. As mentioned if you’re not comparing it to the proof by itself it looks fine.
While soft proofing is feasible it’s still not the same as having the printer provide a hardcopy contract proof. Another tool is to have the printer gang the various images in the book that your concerned with on one press sheet for you to proof.
I have a process color tint guide that shows the range of 4 color combination in 10% increments, so you can see what color will look like printed out.
