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Lens Testing - Charts?

billsamuels
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Lens Testing - Charts?

I recently bought a couple of Voightlander lenses and the 15mm is not that sharp around the edges. I went to Florida and took some photos on a wildlife refuge and the leaves on the trees were not sharp towards the edges, but there was no wind, it was just downright hot and muggy as heck! The trees towards the middle were sharp and I'm not sure if that's because the focus was on the center. Unfortunately, a 15mm lens is so wide, everything appears to be sharp if it's far away, at least according to the camera. Also, it was cloudy so I was using a slower shutter speed (160/sec) which might have been too slow for a real sharp photo (hand-held).

I'm looking for a way to tell if the lens is sharp or if it was me? I've used lens charts before. Is this still a good determination of lens sharpness? If so, does anyone know a really good lens chart and what's the best size to print it and the distance to shoot it from?

Thanks.
Bill

Sep 15, 2024 at 11:57 PM

skid00skid00
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Heat haze, or a colder lens hood than outside air, will always blur outdoor images.

Try to test indoors, with a lens the same temp as indoors.

Sep 16, 2024 at 12:17 AM

billsamuels
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Lens Testing - Charts?

skid00skid00 wrote:
Heat haze, or a colder lens hood than outside air, will always blur outdoor images.

Try to test indoors, with a lens the same temp as indoors.

What would I test it on indoors? If I used a chart, are there any really good charts to test for sharpness?

Sep 16, 2024 at 12:37 AM

Abbott Schindl
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Lens Testing - Charts?

billsamuels wrote:
What would I test it on indoors? If I used a chart, are there any really good charts to test for sharpness?

I don't know of any charts. What I've been doing with my UWAs is setup indoors in a well-lit room, on a tripod with a wireless remote release. That stabilizes the camera and eliminates all possibility my releasing the shutter introducing any vibration, so only the camera's native shutter movement's involved.

I happen to have a section of wall (~15' x 7' tall) covered with books. The camera gets setup close enough that the books fill the width of the frame at whatever FL I'm interested in. For UWA zooms, I try both ends of the range as well as wide-open, fully closed, and midpoint apertures. Unfortunately the books don't get lit uniformly, but everything's illuminated so the titles are readable.

Yes, it's a rough test, but it gives me an indication of lens sharpness. I've tested the RF 10-20 f/4L, RF 14-35 f/4L, EF 15-35 f/4L, EF 11-24 f/4L, and EF 14 f/2.8L this way. I've done this with my R5's (RF and EF lenses) and 5D Mark IV (EF lenses only).

Pretty consistently, the edges come out a little soft and vignetted to some extent, while the centers are usually quite sharp. I'll then go into Capture One, apply a circular gradient, and then see if I can sharpen and brighten the edges to my satisfaction. After all, I think it's not just about what the bare lens can do, but also (since presumably we're using software) my pp skills. So far I've been able to correct both sharpness and vignetting with my approach. What I can't correct so easily is distortion, but I'm OK with working that on .in situ images.

So while not particularly scientific, my simple test has worked fine for me. I also have FoCal, but that's just an AF aid that I haven't found as useful for ML as DSLR cameras.

Sep 16, 2024 at 12:19 PM

skid00skid00
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Siemens star chart.

I printed my own on matte paper.

Sep 16, 2024 at 12:40 PM

docusync
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Long time ago I spoke with Brian/TDP about this, and he said he's using one of those (enhanced version):
https://www.edmundoptics.com/f/i3aiso-12233-resolution-test-chart/12662/

Sep 16, 2024 at 01:10 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Lens Testing - Charts?

IMO the problem with test charts and UWA lenses is that the working distance is typically extremely short and not representative of 'real world' use of such lenses. As such I'd rather test in a typical use environment, which could mean building walls in the city, or trees at the edge of a clearing.

Which version of the Voigtlander 15mm is it and what camera are you using it on?

Back some time ago I recall there was pretty lengthy discussion about the most recent Voigtlander 15 and copy variation that affected primarily edge/corner performance.

Sep 16, 2024 at 01:33 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Test charts are not reality since they are not three-dimensional. Take cityscapes on a day without heat haze and examine sharpness of buildings at edges of frame.

Sep 16, 2024 at 02:05 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Lens Testing - Charts?

rscheffler wrote:
IMO the problem with test charts and UWA lenses is that the working distance is typically extremely short and not representative of 'real world' use of such lenses. As such I'd rather test in a typical use environment, which could mean building walls in the city, or trees at the edge of a clearing.

Which version of the Voigtlander 15mm is it and what camera are you using it on?

Back some time ago I recall there was pretty lengthy discussion about the most recent Voigtlander 15 and copy variation that affected primarily edge/corner performance.

It's the Voigtlander Super Wide-Heliar 15mm f/4.5 Aspherical III Lens for Sony E. I have a Sony A7RIV. I just bought it new from B&H Photo. I saw some photos taken with it here on FM and I was surprised how amazingly sharp and clear they were. They also didn't seem to have any distortion. I'm a little disappointed too cause I got a circular polarizer for super wide lenses (very thin filter) and I still get a dense corner on all 4 sides. I tried a B+W pro as well and that too produces the same problem. Fortunately the lens is wide enough, I can PS the edges out, but I'm more concerned about the lack of sharpness. It's not as sharp as I'm seeing others getting on it. The MFR# BA329B.
Please do tell.

Sep 17, 2024 at 03:26 AM

mcbroomf
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Can you say more about the images you've taken (and post some).

What F-stop?
How do you focus?
Where in the image are you focusing?
What distance(s) are we taking about?

Sep 17, 2024 at 03:53 AM

rscheffler
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Lens Testing - Charts?

billsamuels wrote:
It's the Voigtlander Super Wide-Heliar 15mm f/4.5 Aspherical III Lens for Sony E. I have a Sony A7RIV. I just bought it new from B&H Photo. I saw some photos taken with it here on FM and I was surprised how amazingly sharp and clear they were. They also didn't seem to have any distortion. I'm a little disappointed too cause I got a circular polarizer for super wide lenses (very thin filter) and I still get a dense corner on all 4 sides. I tried a B+W pro as well and that too produces the same problem. Fortunately the...Show more →

It would be helpful to see some high resolution photos if you're able to upload some somewhere, such as Google Drive, Flickr, Smugmug, etc.

I'm not sure exactly when the discussion was about that lens and copy variation. The version 3 model was released in M mount around early 2015 and not sure when E mount was released, so it could be a ways back. I think it boiled down to some lenses being very good across the frame, some with relatively weak corners but still acceptable, and some with poor corner performance.

Probably the only solution, if you're not happy with the performance is to exchange it for another one and see if it's any better.

UWA lenses are quite difficult to manually focus on mirrorless, even with magnified view because of the deep depth of field that makes it difficult to discern where the exact plane of focus is. If a lot of your photos are relatively far subject content, it might not be a good idea to just put the lens at infinity. Sometimes focusing a touch closer than infinity helps if there is field curvature. Or focusing in the midfield area of the image (rule of thirds zone), rather than in the center, again because of field curvature. If you can find a 2-3 story building with a brick/textured wall and frame it such that it just fills the frame (without tilting up), it will help give some idea of how at least the upper corners compare to the rest of the image. If you're not in an urban area, then at the edge of a clearing where you can just fill the frame with trees would be another option. Or just a bunch of real world images how you would normally use the lens. Without seeing some photos it's difficult to identify whether it might be the lens or something else.

While you're at it, if you haven't already, please read through the recommendations and reviews of UWA lenses here: https://phillipreeve.net/blog/user-guide-ultra-wideangle-lenses-sony-alpha-7-series/

Here is their summary for this lens:

Already at f/4.5 the center as well as midframe region is looking very good. Corners are ok, coma correction is pretty decent
You have to use f/11 for the corners to look best.
Almost no distortion, decent flare resistance, very nice 10-stroke sunstars, but very high vignetting even stopped down
Very small and lightweight, decently priced
In case f/4.5 is fast enough and you can get by with the high vignetting very nicely balanced lens for the A7 cameras.

Here is their in-depth review of this lens: https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-voigtlander-15mm-4-5-e-super-wide-heliar/

Scroll down to the sharpness section. Do their crops look comparable to what you are getting with your lens?

That review is from 2016 and the off-brand UWA lens category for Sony FE has changed a lot since then. There are a number of newer options, such as the Laowa 15/2.0 (though likely larger than the Voigtlander): https://phillipreeve.net/blog/rolling-review-laowa-15mm-2-0-zero-d/

Or the Viltrox 16/1.8: https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-viltrox-fe-16mm-1-8-af/

Sep 17, 2024 at 05:35 PM

Choderboy
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Lens Testing - Charts?

This may help:

Fred comparing his III E mount, which he returned as he found the corners so bad he declared it defective, vs an M mount with much better corners.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1425842/9#13531068

Fred's original review of E mount III
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1425842/0?keyword=Voigtlander,15#13522807

Don't miss this:
UPDATE: Ignore the extreme crops. My E-mount is not a good copy.

Sep 17, 2024 at 10:06 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Lens Testing - Charts?

@Choderboy thanks for digging up those links from back in 2016!

Sep 17, 2024 at 11:11 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Choderboy wrote:
This may help:

Fred comparing his III E mount, which he returned as he found the corners so bad he declared it defective, vs an M mount with much better corners.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1425842/9#13531068

Fred's original review of E mount III
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1425842/0?keyword=Voigtlander,15#13522807

Don't miss this:
UPDATE: Ignore the extreme crops. My E-mount is not a good copy.

Thanks again for digging these up. Very helpful! I was going by several posts I started several months ago when I wanted a Sony camera and didn't know what to get and which manual lenses to get. I was very interested in either the Zeiss or the Voigtlanders. I was originally going to pull the trigger on a Leica M, but they were so expensive, that was just way out of sight between the camera and the lenses. So with a Sony, I could use many of the same lenses that Leica M cameras use.
The 15mm Heliar seemed like a great lens based on what a few people were saying. I also found some reviews on camera and lens reviews, plus reviews on B&H's website. I'm, going to post some photos I posted. I think(

) it's soft in the corners.
Here is my original post:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1862971/2#16594027

Also, I got a Voigtlander 35mm APO Lanthar and that is a very sharp lens.

Sep 19, 2024 at 12:09 AM

billsamuels
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Lens Testing - Charts?

mcbroomf wrote:
Can you say more about the images you've taken (and post some).

What F-stop?
How do you focus?
Where in the image are you focusing?
What distance(s) are we taking about?

Here are some photos I took for sharpness. They aren't high resolution, but they were originally high resolution jpg's and I can post them somewhere else I guess. See the description of each taken at different f/stops.
Thanks for any opinions you can give.

Sony A7RIV
on tripod
Voigtlander Super Wide-Heliar 15mm f/4.5 Aspherical III Lens (Sony E)

Sharpness Test: F/5.6, 1/640, ISO 400

ILCE-7RM4 Voigtlander SUPER WIDE-HELIAR 15mm F4.5 III lens 15mm f/5.6 1/640s 400 ISO 0.0 EV

Sharpness Test: F/8, 1/400, ISO 400

ILCE-7RM4 Voigtlander SUPER WIDE-HELIAR 15mm F4.5 III lens 15mm f/8.0 1/400s 400 ISO 0.0 EV

Sharpness Test: F/11, 1/250, ISO 400

ILCE-7RM4 Voigtlander SUPER WIDE-HELIAR 15mm F4.5 III lens 15mm f/11.0 1/250s 400 ISO 0.0 EV

I'm wondering what the two spots are? Doesn't show up w/lower F/stop. Is this inside lens or on filter?

ILCE-7RM4 Voigtlander SUPER WIDE-HELIAR 15mm F4.5 III lens 15mm f/16.0 1/100s 100 ISO 0.0 EV

Sep 19, 2024 at 12:19 AM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Not good subjects for testing sharpness. Clean your sensor.

Sep 19, 2024 at 01:52 AM

Choderboy
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Lens Testing - Charts?

I agree, not good subjects for testing.
Brick wall type test better. Not an actual brick wall, but, like a test chart, 2 dimensional.

You can try an actual brick wall, but you'll need to be quite close with a 15mm lens, so your are only testing at a very short distance.
If you stand further back, with the camera level, half the shot will be the ground.
So turn the camera upside down and take another shot.

Spots: they are on the sensor. It looks more like 13 or more to me.
There are probably more that you can't see, in the lower half of the shot.
If you just pointed at the sky, you'd see them.

Sep 19, 2024 at 08:38 AM

Geoff CB
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Sensor is dirty. Also are these M-mount versions? You have to remember that some M mount lenses on E mount do not perform well due to sensor thickness.

Sep 21, 2024 at 06:57 PM

billsamuels
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Imagemaster wrote:
Not good subjects for testing sharpness. Clean your sensor.

Is that on the lens or the sensor and how do you tell? The 35mm Lanther I got at the same time, doesn't produce those spots. But the Helliar does. I can't find any spots on the lens surface so I wondered if it was inside the lens and I just got a bad copy?

Sep 22, 2024 at 01:14 AM

billsamuels
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Lens Testing - Charts?

Geoff CB wrote:
Sensor is dirty. Also are these M-mount versions? You have to remember that some M mount lenses on E mount do not perform well due to sensor thickness.

That's the new Voigtlander Helliar 3 for Sony E mount cameras. It's not an M mount. But I don't get the spots on a new 35mm Voigtlander Lanther (also E mount) I got at the same time from B&H. Also, I can't find any spots on the outside of the Heliar so I was wondering if it's on the inside of the lens since the 35mm lens produces clean photos.

I electronically cleaned the sensor several times but then when i looked at the sensor with a light on it, i could see a couo.ple of larger spots which i cleaned out with a real foft brush. I think its clean now. Thanks.

Edited on Sep 22, 2024 at 04:20 AM · View previous versions

Sep 22, 2024 at 01:23 AM

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