At the current US price, the 2022 M6 is a tough sell, IMHO. I just picked up a 9/10 M6 Titanium AND a 7.5/10 .58 M6 TTL with change for that price. Love them both.
calebjoon wrote:
At the current US price, the 2022 M6 is a tough sell, IMHO. I just picked up a 9/10 M6 Titanium AND a 7.5/10 M6 TTL with change for that price. Love them both.
Different group of users - the 2022 M6 is mostly purchased by collectors and buyers who invest to sell later. Actual users will rather go with a used M camera - for example available older M6 versions as you mentioned - or maybe with a (used) M-P or M-A. IMO also one main reason why the issue in some 2022 M6 batches scratching film remained in the dark and only discussed by few for so long - not many who buy the 2022 M6 are actually using it.
retrofocus wrote:
Different group of users - the 2022 M6 is mostly purchased by collectors and buyers who invest to sell later. Actual users will rather go with a used M camera - for example available older M6 versions as you mentioned - or maybe with a (used) M-P or M-A. IMO also one main reason why the issue in some 2022 M6 batches scratching film remained in the dark and only discussed by few for so long - not many who buy the 2022 M6 are actually using it.
I grabbed a two year old m-a for 3200 bucks that looks brand new- buying a new film camera for 5600 seems crazy to me.
Some would say buying a 3200 film camera is crazy so who knows 🤷♂️
RustyRus wrote:
I grabbed a two year old m-a for 3200 bucks that looks brand new- buying a new film camera for 5600 seems crazy to me.
Some would say buying a 3200 film camera is crazy so who knows 🤷♂️
This is more realistic comparing used EX film prices for a M6 going around $2.5K already. Going for $3K gives you a newer model with less likelihood of e. g. shutter breaking or other issues. But a new film camera for > $5K...nope. Even I admit that I spent about $5K for buying used M6, M7, M3, and M4-2 cameras for good deals at the time before prices went uphill. But it is four cameras and not just one.
To be fair to the new M6 the only comparison it has to an old M6 is the name and style. The old M6 was made of zinc, had poor rf optics and had a simple meter.
The new M6 is an MP made to look like an M6. So realistically it should be compared to used MPs if you are looking for a used market comparison. And used MPs are $4000 and higher, not $2500 that a zinc old M6 goes for.
I’m a new M6 user but no way would I buy one at the current prices. I bought mine when the GBP crashed to it lowest point vs the USD in history, so arbitraging that made buying a new M6 from England cheaper than buying a used MP in the USA.
It’s the only new M I’ve bought, and only because of that exchange rate. All my other Ms were bought used saving thousands over new. I wouldn’t do it again though knowing the debacle that Leica is knowingly shipping cameras that scratch film. I’d only buy one if I could first verify that it does not scratch film. Which is an insane thing to type about a new $5700 camera when I can buy a new $20 plastic camera that never scratches film!
RustyRus wrote:
I grabbed a two year old m-a for 3200 bucks that looks brand new- buying a new film camera for 5600 seems crazy to me.
Some would say buying a 3200 film camera is crazy so who knows 🤷♂️
Some would say buying a $3200 digital camera is crazy. In five years it would be worth $1k. The $3200 used film camera ? Most probably you wouldn’t lose any money.
Desmolicious wrote:
To be fair to the new M6 the only comparison it has to an old M6 is the name and style. The old M6 was made of zinc, had poor rf optics and had a simple meter.
The new M6 is an MP made to look like an M6. So realistically it should be compared to used MPs if you are looking for a used market comparison. And used MPs are $4000 and higher, not $2500 that a zinc old M6 goes for.
Correct. But...I really don't care which kind of metal is used for my M camera. My M6 is likely made of zinc housing, my M-E 240 has brass top and bottom plates, my M4-2 and M7 have brass housing. They all feel alike. The rangefinder patch flare of the M6 is indeed the main con of the classic M6. This in-house created cost-saving issue was only resolved with the MP rangefinder (and in later M7 series). IMO this issue was worth a recall of M6 cameras which never happened. My M3 is the only film-based M which is free of this issue - even my M4-2 and M7 exhibit it to a lesser amount. Regarding the meter, I prefer the more simple one of the M6 over the one in the M7. The blinking dot in the M7 display is nothing short of annoying without much usefulness. So in the end I recommend getting a M6 classic in good condition and maybe pay $450 for a rangefinder patch replacement. Still a much better deal than a 2022 M6.
I’m a new M6 user but no way would I buy one at the current prices. I bought mine when the GBP crashed to it lowest point vs the USD in history, so arbitraging that made buying a new M6 from England cheaper than buying a used MP in the USA.
It’s the only new M I’ve bought, and only because of that exchange rate. All my other Ms were bought used saving thousands over new. I wouldn’t do it again though knowing the debacle that Leica is knowingly shipping cameras that scratch film. I’d only buy one if I could first verify that it does not scratch film. Which is an insane thing to type about a new $5700 camera when I can buy a new $20 plastic camera that never scratches film!...Show more →
retrofocus wrote:
..So in the end I recommend getting a M6 classic in good condition and maybe pay $450 for a rangefinder patch replacement. Still a much better deal than a 2022 M6.
..
But that's my point. If you buy an old M6, you've decided you want that over an MP - either in the MP version or the new M6 MP.
I have owned a classic M6 for 15 years and never had an issue with RF flare. Perhaps it is because the sun never gets strong enough in northern Europe In fairness I do have a lot of other cameras so the M6 is not in continual use.
I also don’t mind the zinc top plate, but I am lucky that mine does not have zits. I like the patina of the zinc as the black chrome wears. I also like the simple meter interface in the classic M6. The way that the relative brightness of the two arrows changes to indicate if you are off centre is brilliant.
However I would struggle to justify the current used price for an M6 classic. If buying a used Leica now I think the value sweet spot is one of M2,M3,M4-2 and M4-P, avoiding cosmetically mint cameras that have a collector premium. Those cameras can be bought from a dealer with warranty for around 1000 €/£/$
andrewd01 wrote:
I have owned a classic M6 for 15 years and never had an issue with RF flare. Perhaps it is because the sun never gets strong enough in northern Europe..
Indeed, while that's the case in Northern Europe, in the tropics the M6 with the original viewfinder flares often to the point of unusability. I have a 1988 M6, in which I always had this problem until I replaced the viewfinder with an 0.85x MP viewfinder, which solved the problem.
Desmolicious wrote:
But that's my point. If you buy an old M6, you've decided you want that over an MP - either in the MP version or the new M6 MP.
Cuz the new M6 is an MP.
Yes. Because the MP still goes for more than $5K and is in similar territory as the new M6. Used MPs go for about $4K and are still therefore $1K more than going with a used M6 plus rangefinder patch exchange. This always was and still is the exclusion criteria for me to consider the MP seriously. IMO the 2022 M6 and the MP are at least $1K over the max. range considering other used M alternatives. And this is why (high) used M6 prices were not much affected at all with the 2022 M6 introduction.
andrewd01 wrote:
I have owned a classic M6 for 15 years and never had an issue with RF flare. Perhaps it is because the sun never gets strong enough in northern Europe In fairness I do have a lot of other cameras so the M6 is not in continual use.
I also don’t mind the zinc top plate, but I am lucky that mine does not have zits. I like the patina of the zinc as the black chrome wears. I also like the simple meter interface in the classic M6. The way that the relative brightness of the two arrows changes to indicate if you are off centre is brilliant.
However I would struggle to justify the current used price for an M6 classic. If buying a used Leica now I think the value sweet spot is one of M2,M3,M4-2 and M4-P, avoiding cosmetically mint cameras that have a collector premium. Those cameras can be bought from a dealer with warranty for around 1000 €/£/$...Show more →
+1. I believe there is quite some camera copy variation regarding the impact of the M6 rangefinder patch issue. My classic M6 (non-TTL version from 1995) has hit me multiple times with the patch flare on sunny days. The patch gets stuck and appears reddish but can be reset simply by carefully shaking the camera. I remediated this issue a bit by taping some polarized foil from cinema 3D glasses onto the patch window which darkens a bit the frame lines but reduces the patch flare about 50%. Simple and free of cost solution! For unknown reason my M4-2 (from 1978/79) and my M7 (from 2003) exhibit the patch flare very rarely if ever. The M7 is from a series which was not yet equipped with the MP patch. Maybe both cameras were made before (the M4-2) the essential part avoiding the patch flare was removed to cut cost and after (my M7) the issue became known and some silent upgrades were made? I never found much information about this online and can only speculate.
Desmolicious wrote:
Some would say buying a $3200 digital camera is crazy. In five years it would be worth $1k. The $3200 used film camera ? Most probably you wouldn’t lose any money.
I bought my Fujifilm GF670W for $2800 many years ago. Looking at Ebay's completed listing data, I could sell it for between $3500 and $3900. Not bad.
Picked up my absolutely pristine M6 TTL for $1,399 in 2015 and again a virtually new MP 0.58 for $2,699 in 2017, both from KEH. It's crazy how much prices have gone up on these cameras.
retrofocus wrote:
Different group of users - the 2022 M6 is mostly purchased by collectors and buyers who invest to sell later. Actual users will rather go with a used M camera - for example available older M6 versions as you mentioned - or maybe with a (used) M-P or M-A. IMO also one main reason why the issue in some 2022 M6 batches scratching film remained in the dark and only discussed by few for so long - not many who buy the 2022 M6 are actually using it.
I would think the hand made M2R would be the most sought after Leica considering it's history and production run of 2000 cameras total. No newer versions or minimal upgrades.
lichtstarke wrote:
Picked up my absolutely pristine M6 TTL for $1,399 in 2015 and again a virtually new MP 0.58 for $2,699 in 2017, both from KEH. It's crazy how much prices have gone up on these cameras.
The MP was $4,550 in 2017, now it is $5,695. If you got the same deal today (59% of the retail price) you would pay $3,378. It is a lot of money but I guess it should last you a lifetime as well...
Look, I'm all in with Leica but when I step back just for a second and think about the prices of their gear, well, it's just bonkers!
I could never explain to a non photography enthusiast why a Leica MP is $4500 used, while a Nikon F6 is $900 used. And I have both!
Seriously, I got nuthin.
Desmolicious wrote:
Look, I'm all in with Leica but when I step back just for a second and think about the prices of their gear, well, it's just bonkers!
I could never explain to a non photography enthusiast why a Leica MP is $4500 used, while a Nikon F6 is $900 used. And I have both!
Seriously, I got nuthin.
I fully agree. I bought two Leica R cameras last year (R6.2 and R8). I looked at the M as well but even owning M glass already there was no way I could (to myself) justify the M prices. It is just stupid.
I might add a few Nikon F cameras next year. They are so underrated IMO.
Desmolicious wrote:
Look, I'm all in with Leica but when I step back just for a second and think about the prices of their gear, well, it's just bonkers!
I could never explain to a non photography enthusiast why a Leica MP is $4500 used, while a Nikon F6 is $900 used. And I have both!
Seriously, I got nuthin.
Look at it a different way. How many times have you made the decision to use a M camera while passing over the F6 for just regular walking around photography? If both cameras are being used the same amount, then the Leica is stupid expensive. If the Nikon sits and is only brought out for a specific purpose while the Leica is being used daily, the Leica is showing its value. A high initial investment offset by being used more often.
The cost is easily justified if you phrase it the right way.
madNbad wrote:
Look at it a different way. How many times have you made the decision to use a M camera while passing over the F6 for just regular walking around photography? If both cameras are being used the same amount, then the Leica is stupid expensive. If the Nikon sits and is only brought out for a specific purpose while the Leica is being used daily, the Leica is showing its value. A high initial investment offset by being used more often.
The cost is easily justified if you phrase it the right way.
Totally agree. I hardly ever use the F6. So using your argument that is one expensive paper weight.
In fairness I do have a lot of other cameras so the M6 is not in continual use.