Similar thing happened during z8 launch.
Nikon did not correct the discrepancy at the time
Adding z6 and z7 could just be a way to "temporarily fix the issue".
We'll know soon, I guess
Thomas Heaton is in Mongolia, his last YT video had a short secret clip, kind of hint, announcing trip to Mongolia, and another one on latest instagram post.
I don't think he would show Z6III with a long tele photo, I think, something else is cooking, it smells to me like Z90 is coming.
cvrle59 wrote:
Thomas Heaton is in Mongolia, his last YT video had a short secret clip, kind of hint, announcing trip to Mongolia, and another one on latest instagram post.
I don't think he would show Z6III with a long tele photo, I think, something else is cooking, it smells to me like Z90 is coming.
I was thinking this too initially but when watching his travel video for Mongolia it seems like it was privately organized, not really tied with Nikon or anything. I guess only time will tell.
I would like to see the Z6iii and Z7iii with a shutter that closes when the camera is shutoff so when I change lenses outside dust does not get all over the sensor.
DATER wrote:
I would like to see the Z6iii and Z7iii with a shutter that closes when the camera is shutoff so when I change lenses outside dust does not get all over the sensor.
In one of Nikon's interviews they said they didn't like doing that because an actual shutter is so fragile. The sensor guard in the Z8/Z9 are quite a bit more robust, and even if damaged would not have a direct impact on the rest of the camera's ability to operate. I witnessed someone try to jam a TC onto a Z9 body the wrong way several times (with the TC protrusion going into the body) and the sensor guard was down - it suffered no damage at all that we were able to see when inspecting it afterwards. If that were a traditional shutter, it would have definitely been destroyed. I have also seen YouTube videos with people poking at it with their finger and it functioned just fine afterwards. I'm sure it has a breaking point but Nikon seems to have made it as strong as reasonably possible.
That being said, I always think it's better to have the option than not, and let the user make their own risk assessment. I hope they allow that function with a regular shutter as well, but they may not based on comments they've made. Hopefully enough people have been asking for it that they cave.
DATER wrote:
I would like to see the Z6iii and Z7iii with a shutter that closes when the camera is shutoff so when I change lenses outside dust does not get all over the sensor.
I would never use such a function. A shutter is a very fragile part located closer to the mount than the sensor itself.
Dust is 10 times less an issue than a broken shutter.
And I never experienced dust issues on my Z7Ii.
Sure enough Sony copied Nikon on the a9III with a robust sensor shield. If that’s not an admission that previous designs were highly compromised…
I had concerns with the A1 that continual use of the shutter as a dust guard would prove a fool’s errand, but I have yet to see that borne out in anecdotal or empirical evidence. Saying previous Sony models were flawed is stupid Nikon fanboyism.
bernardl wrote:
I would never use such a function. A shutter is a very fragile part located closer to the mount than the sensor itself.
Dust is 10 times less an issue than a broken shutter.
And I never experienced dust issues on my Z7Ii.
Sure enough Sony copied Nikon on the a9III with a robust sensor shield. If that’s not an admission that previous designs were highly compromised…
A risk not having materialized for you yet is obviously no evidence that the risk isn’t there.
I didn’t write that previous Sony cameras were flawed, I wrote that a dedicated shield cover is a much better design and Sony went for that as soon as they could.
I always recommended Sony users to not use their shutter as a shield even if the function is available.
No idea why you need to interpret this as Nikon fanboyism.
The whole Nikon sensor shield position is really illogical and untenable when examined.
For over 100 years cameras have been being made and used where when turned of, or even when on the active shutter was closed when not actually exposing an image. This pretty much includes all film cameras. Obviously, if the shutter is not closed the film would get exposed. All Leica digital cameras have had the shutter closed at all times unless actually exposing an image. Except the new M11 that has the shuuter closed when off or the lens is removed. This is true of many other digital cameras. Yet we have no reports of any frequency that this has caused issues.
The only time when this became not the norm is when digital cameras that depend on exposure and framing directly from sensor reading became popular. Still, even with these the shutter was closed when the camera was turned off. Keeping the shutter open when camera is off, and IBIS locking, is why many camera digital had special sensor cleaning modes. The default is that the shutter is closed when off.
When a camera no longer employs a mechanical shutter for exposure, the manufacturers kept a shutter for when the camera was off. Nikon just renamed this a dust shield and made it cheaper (speed no longer required) and heavier. Sony also made sure to include a mechanical shutter that could be closed when off when they made the first GS camera that absolutely never would benefit from a mechanical shutter. The only thing validated here was that it is a good idea to have a closed shutter when changing lenses.
Somehow Nikon misses this point on the Zf. Yet they had provided just this feature for the vast majority of time they have been making cameras. Including I think every film camera Nikon ever made. Miss handling a camera and damaging the shutter when changing lenses is not a new thing, it has been happening since the first 35mm Leica cameras. This is just Nikon on once again deleting something and calling it a new feature.
Besides, how do you factor in the facts that:
- film cameras and DSLRs had a mirror between the lens mount and the shutter, this mirror being down most of the time and therefore providing a protection to the shutter?
- DSLR mounts, and the Leica mount, are much deeper than modern mirrorless mounts?
I personally think that these 2 differences are big enough that keeping the fragile and mission critical shutter closed when changing lenses goes from unavoidable (film camera) to harmless (DSLRs) to terrible idea (mirrorless).
And, bonus question, if Nikon’s design on the Z8/Z9 is that awful, then why did Sony copy it on the a9III? We are both talking about a part much more robust than a mechanical shutter, right? I am sure that you have first hand experience with both Z8/Z9 and a9III like I do (mine showed up today) and could confirm the physical difference between a shield and a shutter.
Final clarification I am not after Sony and Canon (although you obviously felt that it was an attack on Sony). They provided an option to photographers that may be a reasonable compromise in some extreme dust situations. Like shooting in a wood cutting factory. I just want to ensure that all photographs understand that this compromise is an awful one in most situations for most people. But I am aware that admitting this would give some points to the Z8/Z9 vs your a1 which you have demonstrated inability to for years now. So in short you are prioritizing your love of Sony over having your fellow Sony photographers increasing the risk of broken shutters.
And I am NOT one of the cynical few thinking they provide this function to generate service revenue from broken shutters repair fees.
I didn't think you were coming after Sony or Canon. I just disagree with your position on using a closed shutter as a shield.
Your claim of a mirror being in the way ignores the millions of RF cameras built. Don't forget that reflex cameras are a later technology. The Leica M cameras have always closed their shutters when not actually exposing the image. Leica believes in this so strongly that on the newest model, the M11 it closes the shutter even if turned on but detects that the lens is being removed.
The concept that the non shutter shield in the Z9 is somehow enough stronger than functional shutter goes against what the Nikon rep stated when he did the Z9 demo I attended. He admonished the attendees not to try to touch the shield. He was tired of having to get it fixed because of that. Neither it nor any of the functional shutters are designed to be touched. Neither will break when changing lenses unless touched. Yet I am not seeing or hearing of problems from the millions of people changing lenses on these cameras everyday.
I have seen the differences between the shield and shutters in the various cameras. The Z8/9 shields do look more robust than the functional shutters. This because they don't have to operate at high speeds. But neither is designed to be touched. So in that regard are functionaly the same.
This is not a brand thing as you always try to frame it. I never .mentioned either Sony or the A1 in my post. You are the one who interjected that nonsense into this nuetral discussion. Not me. For me it is a dissagreement on a feature and risk thing. Nothing more. Your position on the risk is theoretical in nature, and doesn't seem to be backed up by either anecdotal reports or actual data reports despite a sample size in the millions
I have had the opportunity to play with an 9III. But will not own one. I spent all day with a Z9 again today. As always I found it to be an excellent camera. Just not my preference form factor wise.
Nikon ℤ 6 Ⅲ (N2214)
accelerated FX frame 24.5 Megapixels BSI CMOS Sensor
EXPEED 7 processor
inherited from ℤ 8 style body
easy-to-use multi-angle LCD screen, high-brightness EVF
optimized body feel
7-level IBIS, but better than ℤ f has optimized video stabilization,
pixel shift, and high-resolution photography
dual data stream AF system. The updated focus algorithm and process are stronger than ℤ f and ℤ 8.
FX frame electronic shutter continuous shooting of up to 40fps and DX frame electronic shutter continuous shooting of 120fps. Shoot
6K/60p & 4K/120p 12Bit N-RAW and record
4K H.265 10Bit MOV video, which can oversample 6K to 4K FX frame, or up to 120p DX frame.
4K ProRes 422 HQ 10-bit MOV video, up to 4K/60p
fine shutter angle options, project frame rate and shooting frame rate split into
two card slots, support CFexpress B, SD UHS-II
supports WiFi 2.4/5 GHz, Bluetooth LE Connect
USB-C fast charging & HDMI Type-A connection
1bwana1 wrote:
I didn't think you were coming after Sony or Canon. I just disagree with your position on using a closed shutter as a shield.
Your claim of a mirror being in the way ignores the millions of RF cameras built. Don't forget that reflex cameras are a later technology. The Leica M cameras have always closed their shutters when not actually exposing the image. Leica believes in this so strongly that on the newest model, the M11 it closes the shutter even if turned on but detects that the lens is being removed.
Before leaving this exchange, probably 99% of the range finder cameras built (themselves representing a tiny volume compared to SLRs) were film cameras so the shutter had to stay closed. Digital M bodies sold what, perhaps a few hundred thousands total at most? So un-representative enough to be left out of the discussion IMHO.
Besides, as I already wrote, much deeper mounts than mirrorless ones so the shutter was/is a lot less exposed to accidendal hits.
Having used the Z8/Z9 for 2+ years now, I can testify that the shield is robust enough to take the kind of light accidental hits that can happen during lens change. I would not want to try these with a functional shutter.
And back to the topic of this thread, the specs listed in the latest rumors are IMHO not very appealing.
I will wait for the actual announcement of the Z6III specs. But I remain optimistic that it will be a fully competitive camera in it targeted segment.
As I have said I also beleive the Z9/8 dust shield to be more robust than functional shutters. That has never been the question. I just don’t think that using a functional shutter as a dual purpose dust shield represents an unreasonable risk. I believe history supports that view.
I also don't believe the technology for shooting with electronic shutter based on fast sensors, and still having a shutter installed to use as a dust shield is new. This has existed in other lines and in my workflow since 2017.
Do any other Z camera's have shutter angle control? If true the Z6iii has some nice features for hybrid shooters. I'm sure if it does stay 24mp someone will complain but honestly I think it might be the right call.
BPsmith511 wrote:
Do any other Z camera's have shutter angle control? If true the Z6iii has some nice features for hybrid shooters. I'm sure if it does stay 24mp someone will complain but honestly I think it might be the right call.
Not as far as I know, but this would be easy to implement as firmware update.
