akul wrote:
Zf is a side bar camera. Z6 is a main stream meat and potato camera for Nikon. The reason why I refer to Zf, and would not accept reskinned Zf as the Z6iii comes from the notion, that Nikon releases a niche camera before one of their most important camera in their lineup, and trickle ‘up’ to Z6iii and call it a day. There is nothing wrong with Zf. It is fine as it is. It is great that camera seems to be doing well. Problem would be how Nikon situates Z6iii. If the cause of delay of Z6 iii was not due to sensor availability or some other new tech, but a random decision to back burner Z6iii in favor of Zf, I have a problem with such decision.
I think 99% of your takes are well measured, Luka, but this is a 1% post
If the Z6iii has the same internals and technical abilities of the ZF, but with a CFE/SD card combo, that is a very good camera for Nikon and will sell like hotcakes. It would be a substantial upgrade over the Z6ii. I think calling it a "ZF reskin" is pretty disingenuous. R&D money is spent on internals that can be shared among various models, that helps keep costs down for Nikon (and other brands). The moment the ZF specs were released, it was obvious to me that this was Nikon 1) capitalizing the the X100v shortage (albeit very poorly), and 2) gearing their supply chain up for the parts that the Z6iii needs.
People expecting and waiting for the Z6iii to be a stacked sensor camera need to just buy a Z8 and stop waiting. That's not the market segment the Z6 line lives in.
If the new AI tech and great back screen of the Sony A7R5 make it to the A1ii (and they will), no one will be saying the A1ii is a "reskin". They are simply taking the best new thing they've developed and spreading it further into the various lines, same as Nikon.
Max Power wrote:
Not sure why the Zf is taking some heat here. The AF is really good, it has 3 shops better ibis, it’s Nikons best low light camera. If Nikon simply put the guts of the Zf into a Z6 body and priced it like the Zf, I would bet most would think that’s cutting it.
Yup - and that is almost certainly what is going to happen. I will be shocked if they do anything significantly different. It's already arguably the best 24MP sensor available, almost everything that camera needs at that price point is accomplished with EXPEED 7 and the Z8/Z9 AF algorithms (as we got with the Zf). If Nikon really wanted to make a splash they would give it a stacked sensor but that would be quite the surprise and represent another huge drop with regards to the the entry point. I don't see that happening. The competition is the R6II (24MP) and A74 (33MP) and the Zf in a Z6-style body would be very competitive in that grouping.
I'm most curious what happens to the Z7 line. They either make it a non-stacked Z8 which would be pretty boring and in a bit of an odd value proposition with how cheap (relatively speaking) the Z8 is, or they differentiate it with a 60MP+ sensor which doesn't seem like a huge market, or they drop it altogether. I don't really see many other ways it can go. If they did drop the line altogether or bump it up to 60+MP, that would open the door to raising the Z6III resolution to ~30MP, leaving 24MP for the Z5II.
Since this thread is full of wild speculation, I'll throw another one into the mix - Thomas Heaton said he has a wild, out of his comfort zone trip coming up in January that he can't talk about - previously he was given a Z8 to test. Maybe he'll be given a Z6iii or whatever comes out and be testing it on safari of some sort - he's previously stated fast-moving things are out of his comfort zone but he would like to do more wildlife.
RoamingScott wrote:
I think 99% of your takes are well measured, Luka, but this is a 1% post
If the Z6iii has the same internals and technical abilities of the ZF, but with a CFE/SD card combo, that is a very good camera for Nikon and will sell like hotcakes. It would be a substantial upgrade over the Z6ii. I think calling it a "ZF reskin" is pretty disingenuous. R&D money is spent on internals that can be shared among various models, that helps keep costs down for Nikon (and other brands). The moment the ZF specs were released, it was obvious to me that this was Nikon 1) capitalizing the the X100v shortage (albeit very poorly), and 2) gearing their supply chain up for the parts that the Z6iii needs.
People expecting and waiting for the Z6iii to be a stacked sensor camera need to just buy a Z8 and stop waiting. That's not the market segment the Z6 line lives in.
If the new AI tech and great back screen of the Sony A7R5 make it to the A1ii (and they will), no one will be saying the A1ii is a "reskin". They are simply taking the best new thing they've developed and spreading it further into the various lines, same as Nikon....Show more →
I see your reading / speculation and I can see both 1) and 2) to have some truth to them. Also thinking that whether Nikon tried to capitalize x100v shortage, they really couldn’t afford to not to introduce anything to reflect $2,000 range segment. I also agree stacked sensor is very hard to imagine at this point in time. Now, with the updated Z6iii mockups rumor and the April 2024 rumor, make me more hopeful that Z6iii will be a bit more than a Zf in modern body.
RoamingScott wrote:
If the Z6iii has the same internals and technical abilities of the ZF, but with a CFE/SD card combo, that is a very good camera for Nikon and will sell like hotcakes. It would be a substantial upgrade over the Z6ii. I think calling it a "ZF reskin" is pretty disingenuous.
So... Repositioned dials and a different storage slot is not merely a reskin? I say it is, and a disappointing one at that.
Something does not add up with the rumored Z6iii specs. IMO the target market for that camera does not need ultra high frame rates, Z8 level AF, or a second card slot. Perhaps I am projecting my own needs and wants but I will take a 33Mpx non stacked sensor at 10 fps over a 24Mpx at 20fps any time of day. Slightly better AF for the crowd who uses it to shoot their kids? Sure. But that same crowd does not need nor want a Z8 level AF, but a lower EVF blackout would sure help. And keep the size small. Many of us bought Z6 because it was so much smaller than a D7xx/D8xx.
As described today the Z6iii seems to be making all the wrong tradeoffs fornita target market.
GroovyGeek wrote:
So... Repositioned dials and a different storage slot is not merely a reskin? I say it is, and a disappointing one at that.
Something does not add up with the rumored Z6iii specs. IMO the target market for that camera does not need ultra high frame rates, Z8 level AF, or a second card slot. Perhaps I am projecting my own needs and wants but I will take a 33Mpx non stacked sensor at 10 fps over a 24Mpx at 20fps any time of day. Slightly better AF for the crowd who uses it to shoot their kids? Sure. But that same crowd does not need nor want a Z8 level AF, but a lower EVF blackout would sure help. And keep the size small. Many of us bought Z6 because it was so much smaller than a D7xx/D8xx.
As described today the Z6iii seems to be making all the wrong tradeoffs fornita target market. ...Show more →
I agree, and don't get me wrong, the Zf in a Z6ii body would be a great camera, but I don't think it's the splash Nikon needs to entice new people to come into the Z system, at least from a marketing perspective. Using a 5 year old sensor when Sony may have the A7V by the end of next year seems like a poor decision, Nikon should be trying to compete with the next generation of cameras from Canon and Sony, not the previous ones which will have been out for quite some time.
I don't mind keeping it at 24mp, but would prefer a lighter crop on 4k60 and better rolling shutter at that size. Or like you said, 33mp and similar performance in terms of speed.
BPsmith511 wrote:
Since this thread is full of wild speculation, I'll throw another one into the mix - Thomas Heaton said he has a wild, out of his comfort zone trip coming up in January that he can't talk about - previously he was given a Z8 to test. Maybe he'll be given a Z6iii or whatever comes out and be testing it on safari of some sort - he's previously stated fast-moving things are out of his comfort zone but he would like to do more wildlife.
Adding more fuel to the fire, he just posted taking delivery of an 800mm PF; defintiely going to be some wildlife involved.
GroovyGeek wrote:
From the list of specs on NR I don't see much that I want in the Z6 iii. Don't need higher frame rate than the Z6. Don't need faster AF. Don't need pterodactyl eye tracking via AI. Don't need more Mpx EVF. Would appreciate lower blackout but can live without it. Would have preferred somewhat higer pixel count without stepping up to Z7 territory. Would have loved much better battery life. HATE HATE HATE any increase in body size and weight. Don't need better video... scratch that, don't need ANY video.
If that is what Nikon has in store I may just step up to a used Z8 if the weight/size difference is small....Show more →
If you don't need higher frame rate, faster AF, better EVF, and don't want a smaller body, why in the world would you get a Z8 and not a Z7ii?
GroovyGeek wrote:
So... Repositioned dials and a different storage slot is not merely a reskin? I say it is, and a disappointing one at that.
Something does not add up with the rumored Z6iii specs. IMO the target market for that camera does not need ultra high frame rates, Z8 level AF, or a second card slot. Perhaps I am projecting my own needs and wants but I will take a 33Mpx non stacked sensor at 10 fps over a 24Mpx at 20fps any time of day. Slightly better AF for the crowd who uses it to shoot their kids? Sure. But that same crowd does not need nor want a Z8 level AF, but a lower EVF blackout would sure help. And keep the size small. Many of us bought Z6 because it was so much smaller than a D7xx/D8xx.
As described today the Z6iii seems to be making all the wrong tradeoffs fornita target market. ...Show more →
Just one data point, but I'm liking everything I'm seeing in the rumor mill for the Z6iii. A few mm here or there isn't going to matter for size--not like the z6 fit in my pocket. Of course, I also don't want Z8 size. I do want the higher fps and z8 af--24 mp or 33, I don't really care as long as the low light AF/IQ is solid. Like you, I want less blackout. 14fps with minimal blackout would be sufficient and anything more icing on the cake. I got the Z6 not because it was smaller than the D750, but because it offered all the benefits that mirrorless does. I'm not the only one. I do love the z6 size, though.
tobycat2 wrote:
If you don't need higher frame rate, faster AF, better EVF, and don't want a smaller body, why in the world would you get a Z8 and not a Z7ii?
Because of EVF blackout (which is annoying) and the single-tilt monitor (I shoot close to the ground a lot and the single-tilt monitor is VERY limiting in the portrait orientation). Oh, and I hate that dinky accessory port on the Z6/Z7. The Z7ii does absolutely nothing to address the main pain points I have with my Z6.
How about we’re getting it wrong in being hung up on the 3rd iteration of the Z6 and forgetting all about the 2nd iteration of the Z5, also long overdue and possibly the key to resolving the conundrum?
Think about it, you stick the guts of the Zf into the Z5 body, you dumb it down a bit to keep the same low-cost level et voilà: you get the Z5II/Zf equivalent of the Z50/Zfc. Neat and coherent.
Then you may feel comfortable with promoting the 3rd iteration of the Z6 to something half way between the Z6 and the Z8 both in terms of capabilities and necessarily size, because, in the end, you are going to make a lot of people happy, including the current owners of Z6/Z6II :
-Those who like the capabilities of the Zf but hate the ergo
-Those who like the capabilities of the Z8 but hate the dimension, the weight and the price
-Those who will prefer the capabilities of the new Z6III and don’t mind if it is slightly bigger, weightier and pricier than the Z6II
The gut of Zf is already superior to Z6ii. Better AF, better processor etc, so I doubt it will be translated to Z5 ii.
Assuming same processor and sensor in upcoming Z6 iii and Zf (which is what I heard),
beside ergonomic and form factor, we can expect better heat management, CFexpress card
so most likely that will translate to higher video specifications, may be faster FPS as the main difference
between Z6 iii and Zf, I think. No idea about what type of screen though. Zf screen is more useful for vlogger but for photography, I prefer Z8/Z9 type screen.
The Z6III is so long overdue that it cannot merely be a Zf in a Z6 body (even with slightly higher FPS and video specs), it would simply be an admission of failure on Nikon’s part.
The Z6III may have the same current Expeed 7 processor (or better) but, for Nikon not to lose face, it must definitely have a new state of the art sensor, even if it is a 24 MP.
The one body which can inherit the Zf sensor and processor, without Nikon losing face, is the Z5 which would be a cost-effective way of producing the equally long overdue Z5II. Such a move would have the added bonus of restoring product line consistency, i.e. the Z5II/Zf offering to mirror the Z50/Zfc offering.
Burleigh wrote:
The Z6III is so long overdue that it cannot merely be a Zf in a Z6 body (even with slightly higher FPS and video specs), it would simply be an admission of failure on Nikon’s part.
The Z6III may have the same current Expeed 7 processor (or better) but, for Nikon not to lose face, it must definitely have a new state of the art sensor, even if it is a 24 MP.
The one body which can inherit the Zf sensor and processor, without Nikon losing face, is the Z5 which would be a cost-effective way of producing the equally long overdue Z5II. Such a move would have the added bonus of restoring product line consistency, i.e. the Z5II/Zf offering to mirror the Z50/Zfc offering. ...Show more →
It'll be fine. We will still get it because it's going to be just fine. At the end of the day it's about the price tag. If it's $2500 then it better be worth the $500 premium. If it's $2000 and just a simple reskin in a body that's more ergonomic, we'll get it because it's a fair price or how much camera we're getting. We don't need it to be any more fancy than the Zf.
unchecked wrote:
It'll be fine. We will still get it because it's going to be just fine. At the end of the day it's about the price tag. If it's $2500 then it better be worth the $500 premium. If it's $2000 and just a simple reskin in a body that's more ergonomic, we'll get it because it's a fair price or how much camera we're getting. We don't need it to be any more fancy than the Zf.
It's about the value and worthiness.
I agree that the product performance should be commensurate with the price.
But I do see Burleigh’s point. Reskin that Zf in a Z5 body and price it around $1600 and you have a wonderful Z5 II that resets the category price point, inflation adjusted.
I think it’s about expectations. Whilst I can see value in a Zf reskinned in a Z6 body for $2k, I think market reaction will be very underwhelming. Whereas a Zf reskinned in Z5 body for a lower cost will be seen as a great value, yet up to date proposition.
I see a $2500 Z6 III worthy of that asking price as something the market will respond better to. Certainly more buzz and builds on the Z8 momentum.
Burleigh wrote:
The Z6III is so long overdue that it cannot merely be a Zf in a Z6 body (even with slightly higher FPS and video specs), it would simply be an admission of failure on Nikon’s part.
The Z6III may have the same current Expeed 7 processor (or better) but, for Nikon not to lose face, it must definitely have a new state of the art sensor, even if it is a 24 MP.
The one body which can inherit the Zf sensor and processor, without Nikon losing face, is the Z5 which would be a cost-effective way of producing the equally long overdue Z5II. Such a move would have the added bonus of restoring product line consistency, i.e. the Z5II/Zf offering to mirror the Z50/Zfc offering. ...Show more →
100% agree. It's 3 years now since the Z6ii and that was already considered a disappointing and incremental update to the Z6 by many, regardless of how capable it is. A new sensor is the bare minimum. Z5ii would be an easy win though as well.
My wishes:
Z5II: Basically a Zf in the Z5 body.
Z6III: 24MP stacked sensor with sensor shield from a9II in Z6II body.
Z7III: sensor from Z8/9 with sensor shield in the Z7II body. Less preferable, 61MP from a7RV in Z7II body.
GroovyGeek wrote:
So... Repositioned dials and a different storage slot is not merely a reskin? I say it is, and a disappointing one at that.
Something does not add up with the rumored Z6iii specs. IMO the target market for that camera does not need ultra high frame rates, Z8 level AF, or a second card slot. Perhaps I am projecting my own needs and wants but I will take a 33Mpx non stacked sensor at 10 fps over a 24Mpx at 20fps any time of day. Slightly better AF for the crowd who uses it to shoot their kids? Sure. But that same crowd does not need nor want a Z8 level AF, but a lower EVF blackout would sure help. And keep the size small. Many of us bought Z6 because it was so much smaller than a D7xx/D8xx.
As described today the Z6iii seems to be making all the wrong tradeoffs fornita target market. ...Show more →
The Z6III won't get the full Z8 AF without a stacked sensor. They can use the same processor and algorithms (and they obviously will), but the Z8 will be able to sample AF ~8-10 times faster (guessing on Z6III readout speed), which makes a significant difference in demanding situations. Of course the blackout EVF you mention helps the user track action, and also is only likely to be possible possible with a stacked sensor. It would be interesting if somehow Nikon could get their dual stream tech to work in some capacity with a non-stacked sensor, that would be a nice surprise if it is possible.
You have to look at the competition though, which is the R6II and A74 - that is what new customers will be cross shopping against and therefore what Nikon will be targeting. The R6II will shoot at 40FPS in 12bit RAW with AE/AF. I wouldn't be surprised if Nikon brings the Z6III to a similar level, possibly using their TICO RAW technology found in the Z8/Z9. The A74 is a bit of an odd ball, I think Sony crippled it more than they needed to in order to protect other models, but it's still plenty competitive.
If they keep the Z7 line, that will probably be your slower, higher resolution option relative to a Z6III. The trouble there is the Z8 has a very low price (relative to the closest competition) and without a significant price difference between a Z8 and a hypothetical Z7III, most people will just buy a Z8. One thing they could do is move the Z7III to 60+ MP to help differentiate it.
