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Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

paradisephoto
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

I currently have the Sony 24-105 F4G, the Sony 20-70 F4G, Samyang 35-150 F2-F/2.8, and last week added the Sony 24-70F2.8GMII. My bodies are currently the A7iv and the A9II. Obviously I have a lot of wide to tele glass. I do a combination of weddings, portraits, events, kids sports individual and team photos, and live music work. So people are my subject pretty much 100% of the time. On the 24MP and 33MP sensors I have now, resolution from these lenses is not an issue. I have read that higher MP sensors really put the resolution capabilities of lenses to the test, and in some cases the sensors can out resolve the lenses (aka 1st gen Sony 24-70 F/2.8GM couldn't handle the sensor on the A1 and A7R4 from what I have read in various places). I am thinking about adding either the A7R5 or the A1 to my arsenal (this is assuming we don't get an A75 next year). I am not worried about the Sony 20-70 or the 24-70 being able to handle the sensor on either of those cameras. The Samyang I use primarily for live music and during wedding ceremony photos with the silent shutter, and don't need the 50MP or 61MP files in those circumstances, so it is not a concern. I am curious if anyone uses the Sony 24-105 on either the A1 or A7R5, and does that lens have enough to keep up with the resolving power of those sensors?

Nov 20, 2023 at 11:58 AM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

Used the 24-105 for many many years on the A7R4 which is the same resolution as the R5. There are definite weak points to that lens at 61mp compared to using it on other bodies, it's a lens that's badly in need of a Gen II refresh.

If I were building a kit out today, I'd be using the 24-70 GM II instead and cropping as needed. It's a MUCH better lens all the way around.

All that said, the 24-105 will still produce good images...they just won't be maximizing what the latest cameras are capable of.

Why not get a 70-200 GM II for the 2nd body to expand your range?

Nov 20, 2023 at 12:19 PM

paradisephoto
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

I'd love a GENII version of the 24-105!! That tells me pretty much what I was thinking. You pretty much hit my line of thinking to use the 24-70GMII and crop when I move to a higher resolution camera over the 24-105. Otherwise, on my A7iv and A9ii, the 24-105 is still very much a great match.

I'd love the 70-200GMII, but most likely wouldn't use it. I had a Sony 70-200 F/2.8 back when I had an A99II, and had the Tamron 70-180 F2.8 for a while with my A7iii. Both were amazing in their own right. A lot of the live music work I do I am able to get really close to the musicians as they all know me as a fellow musician that is also a pretty good live music photographer. They don't have an issue with me being directly in front of the stage or sometimes even on the side of the stage itself (not in front of the audience). I end up needing to go under 70mm sometimes as they get that close to me, so I need something wider than the 70mm on the fly. The Samyang 35-150 F/2-F/2.8 so far has been the perfect lens for me as it has speed and just enough wide angle to cover 98% of what I do with live music. Those photos exist primarily on social media for the bands to use for promotional purposes, so I don't even need the full 24mp or 33mp resolution of what I have, never mind what the A1 or A7R5 have.

Nov 20, 2023 at 12:43 PM

QuietOC
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

The A7R models are better for softer lenses because they lack the optical low pass filter.

Nov 20, 2023 at 12:46 PM

Daran
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

QuietOC wrote:
The A7R models are better for softer lenses because they lack the optical low pass filter.
That depends on whether you actually need any low pass filtering and whether your post processing will cope with moire showing up. So you may have a point for textures prone to moire. Given my usual choice of natural subjects I'd judge it as completely wrong.

Nov 20, 2023 at 01:05 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

I don't think 24-105 is really the place to look for optical purity. Really a pretty extreme range, moreso than people give it credit. That said if the same lens on higher resolution sensor doesn't give more resolution I don't see the point of the higher resolution sensor

On film, higher resolution film didn't need as good a lens for a given result.

Nov 20, 2023 at 01:14 PM

paradisephoto
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

It is a bit of an extreme range, but one that is handy from time to time. I am not sure I am moving to a higher resolution sensor at this point, but more I’m trying to figure out if the 24-105 is good enough for said higher resolution sensor if I do make that move. It’s certainly more than good enough for the weddings and kids photos I’ve done with it over the last few years on my previous A7iii, and it got lots of compliments for the kids sports stuff on the A7iv.

I don’t think there is much doubt that the 24-70 GM2 would give me pretty much as much “optical purity” as I could stand if I go A1 or A7R5. But I am suspicious that the 24-105 wouldn’t get me there if I went that direction.

Thankfully I am past film days. I enjoy being able to know I have the shot and not lose sleep for a day or three waiting on film to get developed and printed😎.

Nov 20, 2023 at 02:21 PM

Peire
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

My copy of G 24-105/4 is good/very good on both of my A7R4A bodies with 61 mpx.It is not as sharp and contrasty as my GM 24-70/2.8 Mk2,but tested G 20-70/4 was only a tad sharper overall only between 40-70mm and I did not go for it.So,even on 61 mpx FF sensor in the real life pictures G 24-105/4 is perfectly suitable in case something longer than 24-70mm is needed in the standard zoom.

Nov 20, 2023 at 03:04 PM

ruthenium
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

The notion "in some cases the sensors can out resolve the lenses" is incorrect.
Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals is characteristically blunt on this: "If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly."
For details, see the Appendix to https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

Nov 20, 2023 at 05:48 PM

aCuria
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

ruthenium wrote:
The notion "in some cases the sensors can out resolve the lenses" is incorrect.
Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals is characteristically blunt on this: "If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly."
For details, see the Appendix to https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

It's accurate to say that upgrading either the lens or the camera will always enhance the overall resolution of the system, as Roger Cicala pointed out. However, it's important to note that the notion of a sensor outresolving a lens is not entirely incorrect, albeit counterintuitive.

The lens resolution and sensor resolution can be measured independently. For instance, if a lens has a resolution of 50 lp/mm, and the sensor, like the RV, has a resolution of 130 lp/mm, then technically, the sensor does outresolve the lens (130 > 50 lp/mm). This statement is particularly relevant in discussions about combating moire, where having a higher sensor resolution compared to the lens can be beneficial. This is also why pixel shift mode is sometimes employed to mitigate moire by effectively increasing sensor resolution.

However, it's crucial to understand that even with a sensor resolution of 130 lp/mm and a lens resolution of 50 lp/mm, we cannot extract the full 50 lp/mm onto the raw file. The practical limitation lies in the transfer function formula, and in reality, we might only achieve around 46-47 lp/mm on the RV. This highlights that, practically speaking, the setup is lens-limited. Increasing the sensor resolution from 130 lp/mm to infinity would only marginally improve the raw file resolution by 4 lp/mm.

In practical terms, investing in a better lens, such as one with a resolution of 100 lp/mm, might be more effective. This would result in a system resolution of around 80 lp/mm, a substantially larger increase than what could be achieved by using an infinite-resolution sensor with the same lens. Therefore, the lens remains a critical factor in determining the overall image quality, and in many cases, it may be more impactful to focus on upgrading the lens rather than solely relying on increasing sensor resolution.

Nov 21, 2023 at 03:27 AM

Outstanding
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

I find 20-70 extremely sharp, in fact sharpest zoom lens I have ever tried. Found it sharper than 24-70 GM II and 70-200 GM II.

There are some older lenses like Sigma 85mm F1.4 DG HSM which is extremely sharp even today on A7R5.

If you only care about sharpness and fastest AF then stick to following primes - 20 F1.8 G, 35 1.4 GM, 50 1.4GM, Sigma 65 F2, Sigma 85 DG DN, 135 GM

These are the sharpest lenses I have ever tried.

For rendering I prefer 24 GM, Samyang 24 F1.8, 50 GM 1.2, 85 GM, Samyang 135, 70-200 GM II.

Nov 21, 2023 at 03:58 AM

ruthenium
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

The resolving ability of a camera system is the product of both the sensor and lens MTFs. What you suggested, "In practical terms, investing in a better lens, such as one with a resolution of 100 lp/mm, might be more effective" makes sense for an owner of a high megapixel camera. An owner of a 24 - 33 MP camera may want to increase the MP count to 50 - 61 first.
My understanding of the question of the OP is whether investing in a high MP camera would make practical sense with their existing lenses. The answer is yes, this should work to improve the combined system MTF. The gain may be modest but should be observable with good lenses, e.g. with the 24-105 G (this is not a soft lens).
Something to keep on mind is that processing 50 - 61 MP files requires an adequate computing support. If this is missing, acquiring a high MP camera may lead to another expense, to purchase a new computer.

aCuria wrote:
It's accurate to say that upgrading either the lens or the camera will always enhance the overall resolution of the system, as Roger Cicala pointed out. However, it's important to note that the notion of a sensor outresolving a lens is not entirely incorrect, albeit counterintuitive.

The lens resolution and sensor resolution can be measured independently. For instance, if a lens has a resolution of 50 lp/mm, and the sensor, like the RV, has a resolution of 130 lp/mm, then technically, the sensor does outresolve the lens (130 > 50 lp/mm). This statement is particularly relevant in discussions about combating moire,...Show more →

Nov 21, 2023 at 08:10 AM

Jonas B
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

aCuria wrote:
It's accurate to say that upgrading either the lens or the camera will always enhance the overall resolution of the system, as Roger Cicala pointed out. However, it's important to note that the notion of a sensor outresolving a lens is not entirely incorrect, albeit counterintuitive.

The lens resolution and sensor resolution can be measured independently. For instance, if a lens has a resolution of 50 lp/mm, and the sensor, like the RV, has a resolution of 130 lp/mm, then technically, the sensor does outresolve the lens (130 > 50 lp/mm). This statement is particularly relevant in discussions about combating moire,...Show more →

Hey aCuria...
I have a qustion about those numbers. How do you calculate the resolution in the examples?
Reason for askingis that I have feeling saying that nearly any lens "outresolves" the sensors in the center of the image. Maybe you can explain what I'm missing.

Nov 21, 2023 at 03:23 PM

aCuria
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

Jonas B wrote:
Hey aCuria...
I have a qustion about those numbers. How do you calculate the resolution in the examples?
Reason for askingis that I have feeling saying that nearly any lens "outresolves" the sensors in the center of the image. Maybe you can explain what I'm missing.

I think its easier to make the argument that we are optically limited.

The RV can do 130 lp/mm, and zero sony lenses can do 130 lp/mm at high contrast. Therefore we are optically limited. to disprove this find me a lens which can do 130 lp/mm at 99% contrast

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/03/sony-fe-135mm-f1-8-gm-early-mtf-results/

Lensrentals has the equipment to directly measure the lens resolution so their data is probably the most accurate. Even then the 135GM drops to 60% contrast in the dead center at 100 lp/mm.

To estimate the resolution transfer from lens to sensor you can use this formula
(1/image_resolution^c) = (1/lens_resolution^c) + (1/sensor_resolution^c)
where c is approximately equal to 2 and the resolution numbers are in lp/mm.

I did make a calculator shared in another thread
https://1drv.ms/x/s!Av9niOmdYjYynyFgkatjWjF5ybFO

Nov 22, 2023 at 02:15 AM

tuomkok
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

I am not sure if the original question can be answered. Resolution is a technical term, but in photo there are many variables.

Resolution across the image frame is rarely as important as resolution in center - and this varies as we stop down the lens. As humans we also appriciate some contrast in pictures, not only resolution. Contrast has also plenty to do with what kind of light we have. "Apparent resolution" can also be to an extend enchased in post processing... Those are just few points regarding this complex topic.

It is also worth noting that even with a very bad lens, increasing sensor resolution increases final resolution as more data is at hand. And the final point, especially with high resolution camera we almost every time downsample the picture for viewing or printing - this reduces final differences in resolution the image system (camera + lens) can produce.

And never crop

Regarding the lenses asked, 24-105 G is plenty sharp but 24-70 GM II is sharper with better contrast and somehow (esthetically) produces slightly more pleasing pictures ("rendering"). I am very happy that I made the upgrade. But if resolution is an issue, my recommendation is to go with GM primes!

Nov 22, 2023 at 02:34 AM

Jonas B
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

aCuria wrote:
I think its easier to make the argument that we are optically limited.

The RV can do 130 lp/mm, and zero sony lenses can do 130 lp/mm at high contrast. Therefore we are optically limited. to disprove this find me a lens which can do 130 lp/mm at 99% contrast

Haha. Of course. I think that can happen in the curves published by Sony only.

Nov 22, 2023 at 12:37 PM

Jonas B
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

aCuria wrote:

Yes, But now you are introducing contrast values. Earlier we discussed resolution only. When including contrast there are more unknown parameters. For example, what is the resulting resolution when measuring the 135mm lens together with the sensor at a certain contrast level. The most common value describes the LP/mm value at 50% contrast. Questions, questions... IMA-test is not a good tool in my experience as even the slightest increase of contrast in the image make IMA-test show a big difference in "resolution".

So, we have what we have. Over to the formula:

To estimate the resolution transfer from lens to sensor you can use this formula
(1/image_resolution^c) = (1/lens_resolution^c) + (1/sensor_resolution^c)
where c is approximately equal to 2 and the resolution numbers are in lp/mm.

I did make a calculator shared in another thread
https://1drv.ms/x/s!Av9niOmdYjYynyFgkatjWjF5ybFO

Ah... I thought the formula was (1/image_resolution) = (1/lens_resolution) + (1/sensor_resolution)
That seem to be the formula used at (a PDF-file):
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiL_byHjtiCAxU7FhAIHWiPBQUQFnoECBEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcool.culturalheritage.org%2Fvideopreservation%2Flibrary%2Festimating_historic_image_resolution_v9.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2nbHj3GNu-X97kmdzd5p3x&opi=89978449

Where did you find the formula you mentioned above and also seem to have used in the Excel file you linked to above (What an effort! Thanks!)?? Or, how do we know how to calculate this correctly?

Getting the formula right makes all the difference and if i got it wrong it explains my mistake in my first reply.

BTW: In real life the world is what it is. My opinion is that all lenses mentioned through the discussions in this thread can be used when making nice or excellent images!

Nov 22, 2023 at 12:40 PM

philip_pj
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

When speaking of lens performance (MTF) it is valuable to always consider the distribution of lens contrast (which is what MTF actually is: micro-contrast) across the frame, even for portrait uses. You may wish to portray four people in a line with equal clarity, for example. Don't leave grandpa looking like a blurred out edge guy.

You might position your subject smack bang in the middle of a Leica Summilux midframe fall - not ideal. And for landscapes the consistency of cross frame IQ it is absolutely vital, as witnessed by the many APOs produced by Leica and Cosina. Those lenses are 100mp capable, as Peter Karbe points out. Their remakably flat fields and outer frame performance are key to high Mp success for demanding work.

When you increase the sensor resolution, you widen the gap (often alarmingly) between the centre and the 'outer frames', producing a large donut of stellar clarity surrounded by something much less attractive.

A useful measure no one uses (except myself) is the percentage of wide edge (18mm image height) MTF divided by centre (axis) MTF. I'm interested in how much their design loses off-centre, as many lenses have boosted centres with rapid deterioration outside that core. Others look for CA or bokeh, I look for all-of-frame image quality.

In due course, I'll provide an example showing the difference in 'low' Mp counts and high Mp counts from Optical Limits Imatest results, as well as some actual bench MTF of chosen lenses. You will get a fuller picture that way.

Not addressing the cross-frame issue when discussing lens performance in summary form is what I would call - not so much silly - but certainly incomplete. Rich data work far better than appeals to authority.

Nov 22, 2023 at 06:11 PM

philip_pj
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

Here we see the same lens tested using the same procedure, on a 21mp sensor and a 50mp sensor. It's pretty analogous to Sony's low/high setup of 24mp and 61mp. The lens is Canon's 24-105, an EF lens. It's far from the most egregious example, and the effect carries across into the new ranges of cameras and lenses, in a depressing display of *performance profile shifting*. I chose it to illustrate the effect only, and as the OP mentioned a 24-105. Most users will want their images downsized to web or smaller sizes, and that process carries over the new performance profile into the smaller image sizes. But let's see what OL had to say here:

21mp: 'Unsurprisingly the results are "better" across the board. The center quality is generally very good to excellent albeit still not tack sharp (on pixel level). The borders are "improved" with good to very good results.'

50mp: 'From here on it's all downhill again ... At 70mm the dead center is still sharp (albeit not bitingly so) at fully open aperture but there's a rapid loss of quality toward the very soft corners. However, if you stop down to f/8 the quality is at least decent. The center quality remains alright at 105mm but the outer image field is soft again and stopping down doesn't really help. All in all this is rather disappointing ...Honestly, we were a little shocked by these results.'

https://www.opticallimits.com/canon_eos_ff/995-canon24105f4ismk2?start=1

There are many more like it. Take a look at this one, Canon's esteemed 35/1.4 II, the lens that lost its outer frames:

https://www.opticallimits.com/canon_eos_ff/964-canon35f14mk2?start=1

Hopefully I've made the point clear. For mid-low level lenses, high resolution sensors cost you one or more stops, plus the designed cross-frame profile. But you get get the great centre, so not all is lost. Just most of it. Everywhere else. Until f8.

21mp sensor lens at 70mm

50mp sensor lens at 70mm - good thing they added the 'near centre' bar!

Nov 22, 2023 at 07:01 PM

philip_pj
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sony G and GM Lens Resolution on different bodies

Four examples of the calculation of MTF at 18mm image height (the 'wide edge') as a percentage of on-axis MTF. These are manufacturers' data produced from actual lenses using an optical bench, and so are highly trustworthy. Leica's data are virtually identical at close range and infinity, CV lenses should be similarly solid at close range (data show infinity focus).

Data represent wide open aperture at the shared max aperture for Leica and Cosina for such lenses of f2. An interesting feature of these APO lenses is that they barely improve on stop-down nor do they change much in cross-frame performance.

Leica SL 35/2 APO: 82%
Leica SL 50/2 APO: 82%
Voigt 35/2 APO-E : 85%
Voigt 50/2 APO-E : 87%

There are substantial benefits for many uses of having near-equality in all parts of the image frame, and of course the resulting image will be excellent above a certain level of MTF. And it may not be restricted to 'landscape' use only, i.e. 'sharpness'.

The near-eradication of curvature of field, the minimal residual aberrations, more exact colour and the smooth progression of sharpness across the frame are also likely to produce more settled/consistent OOF/bokeh content. Increases in sensor resolution have minimal impact on axis-edge differentials. Cropping becomes viable in any section of the image. Many benefits. Use on any camera resolution, just for starters.

Note that some lenses that are not claiming APO status perform in similar fashion, one example being Zeiss Loxia 85/2.4 - it's 78% at f2.4.

Nov 22, 2023 at 07:29 PM

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