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Archive 2023 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Fe...

  
 
highdesertmesa
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p.2 #1 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


rscheffler wrote:
That's true. And I did think about that, briefly. I'm making the assumption based on Cosina's other mirrorless lens releases under the Voigtlander brand. Whatever the case, it will be great to see something from Cosina in RF mount!


For sure! I mentioned this in the other thread in Alt, but what I would really want if I still shot Canon R cameras (and still may again someday) would be something more like the Loxia lens line and less like a small M lens that looks like it's been permanently mounted on a wider R-mount adapter. With Z mount, I feel like they just did the lazy thing, which was recalculate the optical formulas for the Z sensor then throw a wider mount on it. I hope for Canon R they do something slightly larger and higher IQ than is possible with the M size lenses. There is no rangefinder to worry about after all. I know they wouldn't want to copy Zeiss Milvus, but maybe something in between a CV M lens and Milvus.



Feb 18, 2023 at 11:27 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #2 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


jedibrain wrote:
Do they have a decent lens in the 20mm range for astro? That would be so cool. Don't need AF for that purpose either.

-Brian


They have a 21/1.4 that was released in optimized for Sony FE mount and optimized for Leica M mount. It's reasonably small for mirrorless, though large for rangefinder use. I have not closely looked at reviews of this lens in respect to astro performance, but it way outclasses the Leica 21/1.4 M lens in wide open technical performance and is pretty reasonably priced. I'm not sure how it stacks up against Sigma's huge 20/1.4 Art.

---------------------------------------------

TeamSpeed wrote:
Canon only goes after RF AF lenses, not RF MF lenses. There are a few aftermarket RF lenses now.

Viltrox was hit by canon due to their 85mm AF lens, and they tracked them from the shelves, I like mine!


Do any of the other aftermarket Canon RF manual focus lenses have electronic mounts? Are any of those lenses from 'mainstream' Japanese brands (who tend to be more attentive to potential trademark/patent/technology/IP infringements)?



Feb 18, 2023 at 11:28 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #3 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


highdesertmesa wrote:
I can't see where it says that the RF lenses will be the Voigtlander brand, I only see Cosina. I mean, it makes sense it would be Voigtlander.

Strange that Canon Rumors has not picked up on this.

rscheffler wrote:
That's true. And I did think about that, briefly. I'm making the assumption based on Cosina's other mirrorless lens releases under the Voigtlander brand. Whatever the case, it will be great to see something from Cosina in RF mount!

highdesertmesa wrote:
For sure! I mentioned this in the other thread in Alt, but what I would really want if I still shot Canon R cameras (and still may again someday) would be something more like the Loxia lens line and less like a small M lens that looks like it's been permanently mounted on a wider R-mount adapter. With Z mount, I feel like they just did the lazy thing, which was recalculate the optical formulas for the Z sensor then throw a wider mount on it. I hope for Canon R they do something slightly larger and higher IQ than
...Show more

Yes, I'd love to see some of the Loxia lenses available for RF. But who knows what Zeiss is up to now? Also some of the Loxia ergonomics need improvement. I agree I'd like to see Cosina pay a bit more attention to overall design to more harmoniously integrate into the Canon R system. Not necessarily as clones of the RF design, but like you said, so it doesn't just look like permanently attached M-RF adapter slapped on the back.



Feb 18, 2023 at 11:31 PM
PhilH
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p.2 #4 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


Just adding some more thought here as it's been a long while since I've been on the FM forums, and I do miss this place, but I have time during this color timing session to punch in more thoughts from a former CPS member and former ambassador for a few lens manufacturers.

This could be a very interesting year for Canon. For professionals who went in on or went to RF from EF there's been a lot of missing pieces. I think most notably is the need/want/desire for new L primes like a 24 and 35. Plus there's been rumors of things like 28mm and others to be introduced into L series. I think I'd like to see a couple 200mm-ish prime solutions when they can. All of Canon's 200mm primes in EF have been somewhat iconic. 135mm is already sorted. And there will most certainly be an ultrawide or two when they can.

They did release the holy trinity of zooms, a surprise to many fast mid range zoom, and did a moderate cross-grade via the hard mount on some of their best super telephotos.

A good deal of the more affordable RF glass has punched above it's weight in my mind in terms of value. But what I wrote above alludes to the need for Canon's newest mount to have more glass solutions which will move more cameras, were 3rd parties can really help. And it's also rumored Sigma is pursuing RF mount glass. And though they announced their newest low end of the tier bodies already, with a year of tradeshows and quarter based announcements ahead we might see some new high to mid end of the tier bodies.

I've spoken with a few Canon engineers when they have been in town in the last few years and they do have a plan that is unfolding, but they took their time to develop RF to make it work well for both the still and motion industries. But now with 8 or 9 (R5c) bodies out to date those holes in the lens lineup are becoming rather visible.

Not that this part is relevant, but for me personally the R5 and R3 have been the most interesting RF mount cameras released to date with 2020 and 2021 release dates respectively. And the R5 and R5C have entered the professional motion space reasonably well, but aren't dedicated motion cameras, but I expect more RF-minded solutions beyond the C70 on this front shortly. But I personally am hoping for something semi-1Ds class relatively soon. But it will be a question as to what that even looks like. Based on my moderate measurements the new L primes could handle a 100+ megapixel sensor. Resolution by far isn't all that matters nor what everybody is after, but it's important to identify we're still in the early days of this system and hopefully they'll be swinging big this year.



Feb 18, 2023 at 11:37 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.2 #5 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


rscheffler wrote:
Yes, I'd love to see some of the Loxia lenses available for RF. But who knows what Zeiss is up to now? Also some of the Loxia ergonomics need improvement. I agree I'd like to see Cosina pay a bit more attention to overall design to more harmoniously integrate into the Canon R system. Not necessarily as clones of the RF design, but like you said, so it doesn't just look like permanently attached M-RF adapter slapped on the back.


Yes, agreed. The reference to Loxia (since I've only envied them and never used them) was because I liked their compact size, similar style, moderate maximum aperture, sunstar style, and general all-around goal of being a complete, coherent manual focus kit.

Come to think of it, there's no reason Cosina could not launch a similar, purpose-driven line with uniform design language for Leica M as well.

I also have to say as an SL2-S owner, I wish they would throw the L-mount a bone by porting any RF lenses they make to L. They don't even make an M-to-L mount close focus adapter like they do for E and Z.



Feb 18, 2023 at 11:41 PM
jpeter
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p.2 #6 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


A Leica-M to RF adapter with programmable focal length would be nice. Getting tired of setting the focal length for IS.

JP



Feb 19, 2023 at 12:14 AM
rscheffler
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p.2 #7 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


jedibrain wrote:
Do they have a decent lens in the 20mm range for astro? That would be so cool. Don't need AF for that purpose either.

-Brian


rscheffler wrote:
They have a 21/1.4 that was released in optimized for Sony FE mount and optimized for Leica M mount. It's reasonably small for mirrorless, though large for rangefinder use. I have not closely looked at reviews of this lens in respect to astro performance, but it way outclasses the Leica 21/1.4 M lens in wide open technical performance and is pretty reasonably priced. I'm not sure how it stacks up against Sigma's huge 20/1.4 Art.


Brian, here's Fred's Voigtlander 21/1.4 review. In regards to coma performance, it's probably optimal at f/2.8, though possibly already good enough at f/2.2. But no guarantees it will become available for RF mount. That said, it's a lens I would be interested in given there are currently no good ~20mm primes for RF.



Feb 19, 2023 at 12:21 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.2 #8 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


jpeter wrote:
A Leica-M to RF adapter with programmable focal length would be nice. Getting tired of setting the focal length for IS.

JP


The only way to read focal length from and M lens is from 6-bit coding the way the Leica M-Adapter-L does for L-mount cameras. But 6-bit coding is copyright protected by Leica and will never make its way into an RF adapter unless Leica decides to start selling a license to it.



Feb 19, 2023 at 12:32 AM
rscheffler
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p.2 #9 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


PhilH wrote:
Just adding some more thought here as it's been a long while since I've been on the FM forums, and I do miss this place, but I have time during this color timing session to punch in more thoughts from a former CPS member and former ambassador for a few lens manufacturers.

This could be a very interesting year for Canon. For professionals who went in on or went to RF from EF there's been a lot of missing pieces. I think most notably is the need/want/desire for new L primes like a 24 and 35. Plus there's been rumors of
...Show more

What I hope Canon will pay attention to with their future fast wide primes is overall rendering quality and not just sharpness in the plane of focus. They and Nikon touted the inherent benefits of their larger diameter lens mounts (compared to Sony), yet somehow Sony has been able to release some really nicely rendering fast wides, such as their 24/1.4 with relatively minimal cats eyes optical vignetting. Compare that to the optical vignetting of the RF50/1.2, for example... Just makes me cringe a bit at what Canon prioritized there. That said, I have the 28-70/2 and like how it renders OOF specular bokeh balls in addition to its overall great quality throughout the zoom range. So Canon can definitely do this if they pay attention to it.



Feb 19, 2023 at 12:33 AM
rscheffler
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p.2 #10 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


highdesertmesa wrote:
The only way to read focal length from and M lens is from 6-bit coding the way the Leica M-Adapter-L does for L-mount cameras. But 6-bit coding is copyright protected by Leica and will never make its way into an RF adapter unless Leica decides to start selling a license to it.


It will never make its way into an adapter from a brand like Voigtlander. However, it's already available from TTA for both Sony and Nikon mirrorless. I'm sure Leica is thrilled about the 6-bit IP infringement, but not likely to challenge it in the Chinese legal system that apparently is stacked against foreign IP holders litigating domestic infringers.

Those adapters also have focal length wheels for non-coded lenses, which would be an interesting solution and could mean skipping the 6-bit reader. An adapter with three wheels each from 0-9, where you manually dial in the focal length, would also be cool as it would still be faster than menu diving to set the focal length in-camera for correct IBIS compensation.



Feb 19, 2023 at 12:38 AM
SNJOps
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p.2 #11 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


I strongly suspect this will be one of the Voigtländer APO Lanthar lenses, specifically either the 50mm f2 or 35mm f2 optimised for the RF mount which is what they did for Sony E and Nikon Z.

In terms of image quality the 35mm is excellent but many say the 50mm is even better, to the point where some have claimed that it is even sharper than Sony’s 50mm f1.2 GM at equal apertures. The m mount version of the 50mm is optically as good is the Leica equivalent based on Steve Huff’s comparison he made.



Feb 19, 2023 at 03:21 AM
johnctharp
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p.2 #12 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


An APO 50mm might be intriguing - it probably won't be functionally superior to Canon's RF 50/1.2L at similar apertures, but could be smaller and have unique rendering.

Personally though, I'd be more interested in a longer, half-macro (1:2) APO lens like the 2.5/125 APO Lanthars produced for other mounts.



Feb 19, 2023 at 07:28 AM
jpeter
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p.2 #13 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


highdesertmesa wrote:
The only way to read focal length from and M lens is from 6-bit coding the way the Leica M-Adapter-L does for L-mount cameras. But 6-bit coding is copyright protected by Leica and will never make its way into an RF adapter unless Leica decides to start selling a license to it.


I just want an adapter that I can program, like the old EF ones that were sold for autofocus confirm. There was a tedious process to get the focal length inputed, but the result is any "dumb" lens can be assigned a focal length, thus recognised by the camera IS. My two M's are Voigtlanders with no coding.
JP



Feb 19, 2023 at 08:16 AM
Bassat
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p.2 #14 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


Ok, I'll admit to being 'outside the loop' on this one. I don't own/use any RF bodies, so I had no idea Canon has restricted 3rd party builders from making RF-mount lenses. This information completely kills any interest I may have had in RF cameras, and by association RF lenses. Someone at Canon has completely inserted his entire head into his rectum on this one. This is a suicide move for Canon photography.

When I moved to Canon EF more than 20 years ago, I did so because of the ABSOLUTELY HUGE array of lenses available for that mount. I regularly use Rokinon, Samyang, Tokina, Tamron, Sigma - and likely a few other - lenses on my EF mount cameras (I own 7 of them, currently). I buy Canon cameras because I think they are the best available, all things considered, and that includes available lenses. Is Canon going to manufacture an f/2.8 12mm (essentially) rectilinear lens for full frame? I doubt it. For $300? No way. A 24-70mm f/2.8 IS for whatever Sigma charges? No way. A decent 150-600mm for $900? C'mon! Not gonna happen.

If Canon persists with this logic, in a few years 3rd party builders will have moved on. Shooters will have moved on. Canon will be left standing in a field with their proverbial wiener in their hand wondering where all the customers went, and wondering how to get them back. Small block V-8 General Motors engines are the king of high-performance racing BECAUSE THEY ARE AN INDUSTRY STANDARD. Had GM forbade 3rd party add-ons, they would have ceased to exist. Think proprietary is the way to go? Consider Packard-Bell computers, Compaq computers, Apple computers of the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Pratt & Whitney, GE, and Rolls-Royce make 95% of jet engines BECAUSE THEY ARE INDUSTRY STANDARDS. Any third party in the world can use those engines to power their aircraft. Canon has officially shot itself in the foot on this one. My guess is they used a silly, proprietary round like the .357 Maximum or .45 GAP to do so. Never heard of them? That is my point.



Feb 19, 2023 at 10:55 AM
jedibrain
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p.2 #15 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


Bassat wrote:
Ok, I'll admit to being 'outside the loop' on this one. I don't own/use any RF bodies, so I had no idea Canon has restricted 3rd party builders from making RF-mount lenses. This information completely kills any interest I may have had in RF cameras, and by association RF lenses. Someone at Canon has completely inserted his entire head into his rectum on this one. This is a suicide move for Canon photography.

When I moved to Canon EF more than 20 years ago, I did so because of the ABSOLUTELY HUGE array of lenses available for that mount. I
...Show more

I share your frustration at this 3rd party situation, but most of your portents of doom are likely wrong.

First, we don't know the nature of the 'ban' - my guess would be it is for 2 reasons. 1) So Canon can get a critical mass of their own lens line up on the market BEFORE any 3rd party makers swoop in. And we know there have been delays in everyone getting everything to market, so that is likely prolonging the wait. 2) So Canon can set up a revenue stream via a licensing program. This Cosina/Voightlander announcement is the first concrete evidence we have that this may be the case. Sigma has been hinting at such discussions going on. So we can have fingers crossed that they are working on something.

Second, mechanical parts like engines don't have a way to confirm that any part you've bolted on to them is a geniune GE/GM/RR part (yet). But as I'm sure you're aware the major MFGs are doing a lot with software to prevent basic maintenance and addons to be done. Example - there is no way to re-set the oil change lite on Volkswagen auto group vehicles, except at the dealer. OR - you can buy a $10k computer interface from them for your oil change shop. Either way, they get the money. Example 2 - once the OBD2 engine data system was standardized by law, all the mfgs put true diagnostic data behind another firewall - did just enough to comply with the regulation (error = bad sensor, but you need the $10k GM Computer to find out which one). All this is done to drive people back to OEM maintenance and parts. Its a drive happening everywhere.

Third, only time will tell if Canon actually, materially suffers from such a decision, even if it is permanent ban. Nikon, for example, suffered greatly having an open system because their technology fell behind. They are still behind. If they come up with a camera to equal Canon/Sony, will they suddenly become relevant again because 3rd party lenses are available? Have to wait and see I guess. Sony made the call to open their mount, reportedly because they couldn't develop the camera and lens line up fast enough together. So they decided to put all their effort in to the mirrorless revolution, and it seems to have paid off as they were first to market there. The lens line up was not as prolific then, so it was the bodies that brought people in to the system. I bet they wish they had the ongoing revenue from more lens sales at this point.

I am hopeful that Canon will license to Sigma and others at some point. But I am aware this might not be the case. I am very happy that the EF adapters exist, so I can use all the third party glass that was out there already.

-Brian




Feb 19, 2023 at 11:31 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.2 #16 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


Bassat wrote:
Ok, I'll admit to being 'outside the loop' on this one. I don't own/use any RF bodies, so I had no idea Canon has restricted 3rd party builders from making RF-mount lenses. This information completely kills any interest I may have had in RF cameras, and by association RF lenses. Someone at Canon has completely inserted his entire head into his rectum on this one. This is a suicide move for Canon photography.

When I moved to Canon EF more than 20 years ago, I did so because of the ABSOLUTELY HUGE array of lenses available for that mount. I
...Show more

We're also in a different market than we were in EF days. With the market shrinking for these types of cameras, Canon may be forced into this for long-term viability. All the profit is in the lenses now.



Feb 19, 2023 at 11:39 AM
BokehBeauty
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p.2 #17 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


I will dream, a Loxia 28mm f2 with better (un)mounting ergonomics and Loxia 25mm IQ would be heaven for me, even more so if it would arrive before traveling at the many holidays in May in Southern Germany. To me Canon has the best manual focusing aid in the industry with the R5/R6.


Feb 19, 2023 at 01:20 PM
Bassat
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p.2 #18 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


highdesertmesa wrote:
We're also in a different market than we were in EF days. With the market shrinking for these types of cameras, Canon may be forced into this for long-term viability. All the profit is in the lenses now.


Agreed. Most of the profit in photography is in the lenses. If Canon cuts off 3rd party builders, they are cutting their own throats. In order to actually MAKE some of that profit, Canon will have to supply things that are currently supplied by 3rd party vendors. I'm not seeing that happening. Canon will also need to continue to sell CAMERAS to affix those lenses to. IFF Canon does NOT supply all (most) of the desired lenses, folks will migrate to platforms where those lenses are available, further cutting into Canon's CAMERA & LENS sales. No matter how you slice it. No third-party lenses is a long term recipe for going out of business.

I am quite certain I am not the only person staying with EF, and purchasing no RF gear. I use EF, in part because, I can get any lens I want for it: Canon or not. Right now, most of my lens collection is Sigma and Tokina, with one Rokinon. Canon makes equivalents for NONE of them. If I'd had to switch to another camera maker in order to get the lenses I want, I wouldn't be shooting Canon now. I'm not the only one.



Feb 19, 2023 at 01:31 PM
Gochugogi
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p.2 #19 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


Bassat wrote:
Ok, I'll admit to being 'outside the loop' on this one. I don't own/use any RF bodies, so I had no idea Canon has restricted 3rd party builders from making RF-mount lenses. This information completely kills any interest I may have had in RF cameras, and by association RF lenses. Someone at Canon has completely inserted his entire head into his rectum on this one. This is a suicide move for Canon photography.

When I moved to Canon EF more than 20 years ago, I did so because of the ABSOLUTELY HUGE array of lenses available for that mount. I
...Show more

Years ago, I switched to Canon from Nikon mainly to use the Canon EF lens system. Isn't that why most people choose Canon? I was never happy with my Sigmas, Tamron and Samyang lenses compared to Canon's offerings, so I strongly suspect Canon's proverbial feet and wieners are safe. They're selling their new R system cameras as fast as they can make them. With all the RF and EF lenses on the market, my problem is Canon has too much choice...



Feb 19, 2023 at 01:48 PM
EB-1
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p.2 #20 · First licensed(?) 3rd party Canon RF lens(es?) to be announced at CP+ Feb. 23


In the 90s it was all about the EF USM and IS. I used Nikon up until 2000, then got the Canon 300/2.8 IS, which was unmatched at the time. Minolta was way behind the times also.

Up until about 10 years ago the 3rd parties were mostly about saving money, but Sigma did step up their game optically and mechancially to make niche lenses for all camera brands.

EBH



Feb 19, 2023 at 02:52 PM
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