rscheffler wrote:
Haha, before I got to that part of your post, my thought was precisely that THE lens is the Leica 35 APO. Small enough, sharp, good bokeh, APO performance... As you stated, all of these 35s have compromises and yes, for the Leica its compromise is its no-compromises price.
Attn. Cosina: we all know you can do as well or better than Leica. Make a direct competitor to their 35 APO at ~$2,000 to 2,500 and you'll have my attention. But only if it's similar in size, similar in rendering, good across frame and APO performance. Thanks!
One last 35mm Nokton 1.5 and Ultron 1.7 comparison. This is to compare drop off. Unlike my other samples, this was done fast: handheld, JPG, and approximate crops. The point of focus was the vent in the crop.
rscheffler wrote:
Haha, before I got to that part of your post, my thought was precisely that THE lens is the Leica 35 APO. Small enough, sharp, good bokeh, APO performance... As you stated, all of these 35s have compromises and yes, for the Leica its compromise is its no-compromises price.
Attn. Cosina: we all know you can do as well or better than Leica. Make a direct competitor to their 35 APO at ~$2,000 to 2,500 and you'll have my attention. But only if it's similar in size, similar in rendering, good across frame and APO performance. Thanks!
Leica sells very small quantities of many of their performance lenses at high price points. I am not sure if Cosina wants to built such a business model around an exponential price-performance curve. Hence their reasonable compromises at a more affordable price point, I would think.
Cosina have shown they can produce super quality and attention-grabbing lenses at a quarter the M prices (often much less) and they can do it quickly and consistently.
The broad scale of their output saw early 2021's 28mm f0.8 - an $1800 700 gram m43 lens with two ground asph elements; and the perpetually out-of-stock 50mm f1, again with their new asph surfacing tech and retailing at $1800 also. I doubt we have seen the last of their ultra fast lens releases.
They are still releasing lenses in recent times for F, m43 and Z users, while trying to keep up their 35mm M-mount OCD and also staving off FE Lens Deprivation Syndrome. Their 'new age' only began in 2017.
Before all this recent production, recall they were the makers of the (Zeiss-enlarged and 'styled') Milvus and Otus families. So they are all too aware of the current yawning gap in upscale MF lenses produced for mirrorless cameras. Make some $1500-2500 lenses, they will sell well.
rscheffler wrote:
Attn. Cosina: we all know you can do as well or better than Leica. Make a direct competitor to their 35 APO at ~$2,000 to 2,500 and you'll have my attention. But only if it's similar in size, similar in rendering, good across frame and APO performance. Thanks!
Fred Miranda wrote:
Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar II?
YES!!
Look at how they shrank the 35/1.2 III compared to versions one and two. Cosina proved they could do a 35 APO (though perhaps not as elegantly as their 50 APO). Time to prove they can do that and make it 35mm right-sized!
Also, considering the MASSIVE price gap between Leica and everyone else offering M mount lenses, there's got to be a decently sized market niche for something in between. For Cosina this could be a range of M-mount halo lenses. They've already done the 50/1.... nice enough, but would love to see some more practical daily-use statement lenses.
rramesh wrote:
Leica sells very small quantities of many of their performance lenses at high price points. I am not sure if Cosina wants to built such a business model around an exponential price-performance curve. Hence their reasonable compromises at a more affordable price point, I would think.
One thing I have come to understand about Cosina and Mr. Kobayashi is that I don't understand his logic. He does what he wants to. How many 35mm M-mount lenses do they make? More than Leica! Or oddball lenses? More than Leica. My guess is Kobayashi is not concerned about price-performance curves (his accountants probably are). If anything, Cosina seems to like addressing niches. The ~$2000 like-a-Leica-but-cheaper is another niche they could address.
rscheffler wrote:
One thing I have come to understand about Cosina and Mr. Kobayashi is that I don't understand his logic. He does what he wants to. How many 35mm M-mount lenses do they make? More than Leica! Or oddball lenses? More than Leica. My guess is Kobayashi is not concerned about price-performance curves (his accountants probably are). If anything, Cosina seems to like addressing niches. The ~$2000 like-a-Leica-but-cheaper is another niche they could address.
I think the problem is once you get to that price point, people’s minds may change as to what they want. While originally they may have wanted that new $2000 Cosina lens, they may get gun shy and instead opt for a very nice used Leica lens for the same money, even if the on paper specs are not as impressive.
I’m wondering how many Zeiss ZM Distagon 35 1.4 lenses are now sold. Isn’t that lens now just over $2K?
rscheffler wrote:
Also, considering the MASSIVE price gap between Leica and everyone else offering M mount lenses, there's got to be a decently sized market niche for something in between. For Cosina this could be a range of M-mount halo lenses. They've already done the 50/1.... nice enough, but would love to see some more practical daily-use statement lenses.
You might add the 21/1.4 to the 50/1.0 as another of their halo lenses. It is cheaper but at the limit of what Leica does in terms of aperture at the same focal length. If you look at the styling both lenses look pretty similar which must say something when the rest of Cosina's products style is rather haphazard. It seems that someone at Cosina has an eye on this ball.
Look at how they shrank the 35/1.2 III compared to versions one and two. Cosina proved they could do a 35 APO (though perhaps not as elegantly as their 50 APO). Time to prove they can do that and make it 35mm right-sized!
Also, considering the MASSIVE price gap between Leica and everyone else offering M mount lenses, there's got to be a decently sized market niche for something in between. For Cosina this could be a range of M-mount halo lenses. They've already done the 50/1.... nice enough, but would love to see some more practical daily-use statement lenses.
One thing I have come to understand about Cosina and Mr. Kobayashi is that I don't understand his logic. He does what he wants to. How many 35mm M-mount lenses do they make? More than Leica! Or oddball lenses? More than Leica. My guess is Kobayashi is not concerned about price-performance curves (his accountants probably are). If anything, Cosina seems to like addressing niches. The ~$2000 like-a-Leica-but-cheaper is another niche they could address. ...Show more →
Although there are many super stars in the Cosina team, unfortunately these lenses don't hold much value as the Leica counterparts. However, as far as performance, my personal favorite lenses are: CV 15/4.5 III, CV 21/1.4 Nokton, CV 28/2 II Ultron and CV 50/2 APO-Lanthar. I would not hesitate shooting with these lenses to achieve high resolution landscape images. There are other two character lenses I really love as well: CV 35/1.4 II Nokton and CV 50/1.5 Heliar.
Dec 20, 2022 at 10:41 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
Fred Miranda wrote:
Although there are many super stars in the Cosina team, unfortunately these lenses don't hold much value like the Leica counterparts do. However, as far as performance, my personal favorite lenses are: CV 15/4.5 III, CV 21/1.4 Nokton, CV 28/2 II Ultron and CV 50/2 APO-Lanthar. I would not hesitate shooting with these lenses to achieve high resolution landscape images. There are other two character lenses I really love as well: CV 35/1.4 II Nokton and CV 50/1.5 Heliar.
I would agree and nominate the CV 75 f/1.5 as another stellar lens and although I know it isn't popular I personally really like the CV 90 f/2.8 APO Skopar as a great all around longer lens for the M10. It has a few weakenesses (not the fastest max aperture and a bit of a mid-zone dip), but it is a small size and ergonomically very nice, IMO, with decent sharpness, good CA control, and pretty good bokeh.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Although there are many super stars in the Cosina team, unfortunately these lenses don't hold much value like the Leica counterparts do. However, as far as performance, my personal favorite lenses are: CV 15/4.5 III, CV 21/1.4 Nokton, CV 28/2 II Ultron and CV 50/2 APO-Lanthar. I would not hesitate shooting with these lenses to achieve high resolution landscape images. There are other two character lenses I really love as well: CV 35/1.4 II Nokton and CV 50/1.5 Heliar.
Thanks for the, well, shopping list.
Of these, I have the Nokton 1,4/21mm VM, which I ordered at the same time as my Nokton 1.0/50mm VM. Except for the 50/1.5 Heliar, I have been closely following the others.
As for Voigtlander lenses not holding their value, well, that was helpful, to me, during less-prosperous times, when most lenses that I bought were pre-owned. (For that matter, every Leica-brand lens I have was bought pre-owned.)
Fred Miranda wrote:
Although there are many super stars in the Cosina team, unfortunately these lenses don't hold much value like the Leica counterparts do. However, as far as performance, my personal favorite lenses are: CV 15/4.5 III, CV 21/1.4 Nokton, CV 28/2 II Ultron and CV 50/2 APO-Lanthar. I would not hesitate shooting with these lenses to achieve high resolution landscape images. There are other two character lenses I really love as well: CV 35/1.4 II Nokton and CV 50/1.5 Heliar.
No 35/2 AL? or 40/1.2?
Dec 20, 2022 at 01:38 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
As discussed above the 35 f/2 APO lanthar is pretty big and has a lot of finder blockage on a Leica M camera. We were hoping Cosina could make a smaller version more the size of the Leica 35 f/2 APO which is lovely in almost all aspects except a very very high price. With regard to the 40 f/1.2 it doesn't have frame lines on a Leica M camera which takes it out of the running for a top choice for me.
Leica and Voigtlander items hold their value in roughly the same way. Leica equipment purchased new loses value but it starts at a higher price point. Used Leica equipment effectively holds it's value but so does CV gear. Bessa R2/3/4x cameras have gone up in price.
If you buy a new 35/1.5 it'll lose the same relative value as a new Leica lens. The exception is when CV simply releases a better version of a lens...i.e. the 35/1.2s have been continuously updated. However if Leica were to release a 35/1.4 FLE II tomorrow then correspondingly prices for the FLE I on the used market would go down.
Back when new film gear was coming out all the time it was probably accurate to say relative to everything else, Leica equipment held it's value. Now I'd say that film photography equipment in general (and i'm including M mount lenses which lots of people shoot exclusively on film) holds it's value if well maintained.
It's far from certain this lens would do at all well in the Sony lens market, which is lavishly served by all manner of lens producers, not least Sony themselves. Cosina might have always believed they had a good startup chance against the very pricey Leica M lenses, a kind of niche they have made for themselves and persevered with, at the cost of being seen as 'affordable'.
Their offerings in Sony mount are (i) legacies of their wide angle phase, (ii) intriguing fast lenses (40/1.2 onwards to 35-50mm) but (iii) mostly we associate them with the APO series. It's why some of us are using adapters for their fine Vintage series lenses - they don't make them for Sony E, except the 21/3.5 that snuck through the net.
It's a mistake of some seriousness, but we all make them. The concentration on M lenses is a large and expensive opportunity cost for them because peculiarities of the RF cameras effectively clip the design wings of the strong lenses, now and in the near future. Their trajectory will be interesting to watch.
Hi guys, after lurking around for sometime I decided to join in. I just ordered this lens today as I was looking for a small 35mm for my M10. I have been primarily a 50mm shooter, venturing out into 40mm territory once in a while. My goal for next year is to hit the streets more and a 35mm was a good next step for me. I will share images when I am able to get out, it's been cold in Houston and about to get colder. This forum has been a great resource, happy holidays to all.
Steve Spencer wrote:
As discussed above the 35 f/2 APO lanthar is pretty big and has a lot of finder blockage on a Leica M camera. We were hoping Cosina could make a smaller version more the size of the Leica 35 f/2 APO which is lovely in almost all aspects except a very very high price. With regard to the 40 f/1.2 it doesn't have frame lines on a Leica M camera which takes it out of the running for a top choice for me.
Thanks Steve for the explanation.
I wish you a peaceful Holiday Season and a happy new year.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I would agree and nominate the CV 75 f/1.5 as another stellar lens and although I know it isn't popular I personally really like the CV 90 f/2.8 APO Skopar as a great all around longer lens for the M10. It has a few weakenesses (not the fastest max aperture and a bit of a mid-zone dip), but it is a small size and ergonomically very nice, IMO, with decent sharpness, good CA control, and pretty good bokeh.
Sounds like the 90 is a good match in respect to optical characteristics with the 35/1.5.
YumMango wrote:
The point of focus was the vent in the crop.
rscheffler wrote:
Rangefinder focus and recompose or live view focused without recomposing?
YumMango wrote:
Rangefinder and recompose. It was not the most careful sample.
But is a realistic everyday use of the lens. Just wanted to understand. To me it implies if mid zone focus is important, then focus and recompose may not be ideal and might be improved by using live view, if possible and practical, assuming the lens actually improves in that zone with careful focus (if this has been determined, I need a reminder).
