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Archive 2022 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?

  
 
Lara_F
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


I've rarely printed in the past, but am about to send off my first 40x60 image for metal printing - I'm nervous I've tried resizing using Gigapixel and Photoshops Super Resolution. After comparing both on my image I like the super resolution better. After Super Resolution I have an image that is 15622px x 10420px at 300 ppi. The recommended sizing for Printique is 18000x12000 at 300 ppi.

Should I:


  1. Resize it a 2nd time in PS to get to the 18000x12000? I did try this using Preserve Details 2.0 but didn't see much difference when I zoom in to approx 100% (the amounts were a little different as I tried to include the same picture area in the screen.
  2. Send to printer as is
  3. Another Method?


I appreciate any advice!



Nov 28, 2022 at 03:17 PM
dclark
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Your print is expensive so trying a few options should be worth it.

Resize a second time sounds like a bad idea to me, but give it a try and compare what you get with other methods.

I would suggest go back to Gigapixel with your original file and resize the image using a custom factor. You can specify either the width or height in pixels so you can get exactly 18000x12000.

Compare them to see which looks best.

Dave


Edited on Nov 28, 2022 at 06:49 PM · View previous versions



Nov 28, 2022 at 03:53 PM
mcbroomf
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


I would say that you either need to resize it to 18k x 12k or talk to them to see if they will resize it the last amount (but you then don't see the final version going to print). I'm guessing they want to print it at 300ppi so you would only get a 52" print with your existing file size.

If you don't see a change in the resizing test to 18k you've done then that seems optimal to me. I typically look at 50% and want to make sure I've no induced sharpening halos and everything is as sharp where it needs to be.

Super Rez doubles the linear dimensions so you could try resizing in PS to 9000 x 6000 then using super rez and compare that to a 2x in Gigapixel then compare them to the uprez you used.



Nov 28, 2022 at 03:56 PM
Ho1972
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


I used an old On1 app (Resize/Genuine Fractals) to take a D810 frame up to 18000x12013 and the print turned out very well (hot press smooth matte fine art paper, 330 gsm). Everything was sharp with no pixelation or jaggies on the diagonals. Newer, more capable, software should do better.

To be sure of your choice, you can always proof the process by taking 100% crops of areas than may be problematic and using them to have smaller, test prints made.



Nov 28, 2022 at 04:14 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Your current file size is about 260 ppi. The difference between 260 and 300 is about 15%. North of 250 is very good in my book.

I think the 300 PPI is a defacto target number, rather than an absolute necessary one ... unless there is some specific reason (raster multiple, etc.) for it.

+1 for smaller swatch test prints.

The one thing I would NOT do is Double Dip on the Uprezz. I have tested running ACR up 200% - 500%, and combined it with Super Resolution also (yes, that makes a massive file size ... just wanted to test the limits).

Rather than Double Dip going UP ... adjust your ACR percentage to get you closer to you desired size. That, or overshoot and then re-size down. I've experimented with both and would recommend either over "double dip" with TWO UPREZZ to bump the size.

Imo, ONE UPREZZ ONLY (to exact needs, or oversized and downrezz to finished size) would be my advice.

I liked what I saw using downrezz with Preserve Details 2.0 (vs. bicubic, etc.) after an oversized uprezz ... tweaking the NR % a bit depending on size / image structure. That's what my testing of ACR / Super Resolution revealed as my strategy for when I may need it. I routinely open my files with ACR 200% or 300% and work them from there (without Super Resolution) when I need a deep crop, so there's that, too.




Nov 28, 2022 at 05:39 PM
Burnard
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Lara_F wrote:
I've rarely printed in the past, but am about to send off my first 40x60 image for metal printing - I'm nervous I've tried resizing using Gigapixel and Photoshops Super Resolution. After comparing both on my image I like the super resolution better. After Super Resolution I have an image that is 15622px x 10420px at 300 ppi. The recommended sizing for Printique is 18000x12000 at 300 ppi.

Should I:


  1. Resize it a 2nd time in PS to get to the 18000x12000? I did try this using Preserve Details 2.0 but didn't see much difference when I zoom in to
  2. Send to printer as is
  3. Another Method?


I appreciate any advice!
...Show more

I would start from scratch and upsize your file with bicubic smoother in PS to the 40x60 dimension and then apply the proper sharpening viewing at 50 or 25% and see if that looks good for printing.

You didn't say what size your original file is and what camera it was shot with.





Nov 28, 2022 at 07:27 PM
Lara_F
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Thank you everyone for the great suggestions. I'm in the process of generating some more options to what is best and will size it properly at the 18000x12000.

The suggestion to print 100% crops is a great idea! Topaz seems to over contrast/sharpen some areas onscreen but maybe it will look better when printed. It will be a good experiment.

Camera R5
Original File Size: 7811x5210px



Nov 28, 2022 at 07:52 PM
amv8
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


I recently had three 40"x60" metal prints made. Two were from 50 megapixel files. The third was from film that was scanned fromathigher resolution (the film original was 4x5 format) that didn't need to be sized up. All were landscape shots. I resized the two 50 megapixel files using Gigapixel AI. I typically try resizing with Gigapixel and PS (preserve details 2.0) and compare the results. Usually I prefer the results with Gigapixel AI, but not always. Of course it depends on the parameters you use as well.

You should be aware that prints on metal are "soft." Most metal printing processes (e.g. Chromaluxe) use dye sublimation, which prints using an inkjet printer onto transfer paper and then the image is transferred to aluminum using heat/pressure. When that happens, the dots diffuse making the final product look like it's printed significantly lower than 300 dpi for example. If you are viewing from several feet away you may not notice, but viewing from a closer distance I do notice. I just had a 40"x75" acrylic facemount print made and the detail was amazing.

If the inkjet printer being used for the dye transfer paper is an Epson, I believe the native dpi that Epson uses is 360 (or 720). If it happens to be a Canon it's 300 or 600 dpi. Of course the printer RIP software will do that interpolation for you, but in my case I resized my files for 360dpi as my lab uses Epson.

As previously suggested, if you have the time, your best bet is to have some smaller sections of the image printed from the 40x60 resized file and compare the results. You also want to pay attention to your sharpening as well.

I use a relatively local print lab for my metal prints, and they make samples for me while I wait.



Nov 28, 2022 at 08:32 PM
Lara_F
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Thank you everyone for the suggestions! I've tried several options and also worked on a 2nd photo that is being printed a little smaller at 24x36.

Printing 100% crops was really valuable advice! On the 40x60 - I didn't like topaz as well when I looked at it on the computer, but once printed on my photo printer this was definitely the best. On the 24x36 which is a very different images and not upsized as much I liked Photoshop's Preserve Details the best. So I guess the moral is I need to test this each time at least until I get a better feel.

In addition I found a great Sean Bagshaw video that mentioned blending upsizing methods for the best quality. I didn't end up doing this for these two prints, but I'm including it in case it helps some future thread reader.



Also thanks for the info on the metal prints detail. I was not aware that the images would be softer than acrylic. This is very helpful info. I've decided to go ahead with metal for this particular image, but will keep that in mind as I do additional prints. We are updating our wall art at home so this will be an on-going project.



Nov 29, 2022 at 06:35 PM
amv8
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Here's a little more info on metal prints vs. acrylic facemount prints or standard "fine-art" inkjet prints. Metal prints (at least the ones I've seen) use a four color (CMYK) inkjet printer to print the image on to the transfer paper whereas most high end acrylic facemount or inkjet prints are printed with many more ink colors (e.g. 6 to 11 inks). Additionally, the ink sets used for transfer paper are specific for dye sublimation. The advantage of using more inks is that you can get a broader color gamut and smoother color gradations with your prints.

When I have metal prints made I typically bring high quality ink jet proof prints that I've printed as a guide for the lab. The metal prints won't match because of the limitations in color gamut, material, etc. of the dye sublimation process but it offers the printer a target/guide.

While metal prints don't offer the resolution, color gamut, and color gradations of some other print processes they have other benefits including durability, less weight per a given size, and are typically less expensive.






Nov 29, 2022 at 08:59 PM
JimboCin
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Here is how I think about print resolution. Not that this is definitive - just how I think about it.

I consider print viewing distance. 300 ppi (or so) might be a good number to use for a hand-held print, but may not be right for larger prints viewed at longer distances. Think about a billboard. No need for it to be printed at 300 ppi - that is rather obvious.

Most people won't be looking at a 40 x 60 inch print from 12 inches. So the required ppi can be relaxed for larger prints without having a negative impact on the viewer.

This is the problem I have with doing a test print at say 8 x 10 inches of a portion of a print that will end up much larger. You will look at the 8x10 print at normal viewing distance for that size, not the viewing distance for the larger print.

So I start out with what a normal viewing distance might be for the final print size I am planning on. There are a number of ways to think of this. Some of them include:
- Diagonal of the print
- 40 degree field of view
- Arm's length
- Some other arbitrary length

Then there is the matter of what a person's visual acuity is. 20/20 or what?

---
I use an online calculator to help me think about this. This is it:
https://www.pointsinfocus.com/tools/minimum-resolution-calculator/

Not that this calculator is the final word, by any means, but it does provide a way to help think about things.





Nov 30, 2022 at 08:39 AM
JimboCin
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


I certainly agree with amv8 that Chromaluxe metal prints are soft.

I had never heard of the reason how they explain it (thanks!) but I won't do metal any longer because of that.



Nov 30, 2022 at 08:45 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?




JimboCin wrote:
Most people won't be looking at a 40 x 60 inch print from 12 inches. So the required ppi can be relaxed for larger prints without having a negative impact on the viewer.


Which is to my first point of 260 ppi is close enough to 300 ppi ... 15% variance when you're already in tall cotton is still tall cotton.



Nov 30, 2022 at 09:48 AM
dclark
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


The reason to resize your image file to 300ppi or 360ppi is so that you can control the resizing and process the resized image. Otherwise the printer driver will automatically resize the image before it prints, possibly including half-toning the image. Most people don't follow a careful process like Sean Bagshaw shows in the linked video above. If you follow the process he uses after resizing he does a some work to the image file to perfect it. Most people do not have the critical eye he has and would never notice the small imperfections he processes. That's why most photographers, even those that post on the FM site, are happy sending their files to the printer and letting the printer driver do the final processing of the image. It's good enough. There are a few photographers that want to control the process and get the prints as near perfect as possible. They do more careful work as shown by Bagshaw.



Nov 30, 2022 at 12:43 PM
JimboCin
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Back to the issue of print resolution. A few additional thoughts. (Not copying others posts because I don't want to turn this into an argument).

Just my thoughts - I have no problem with others who see the world differently than I do.

And I guess I am not going to use units so that we don't go down that rabbit hole ;-)

---

People talk about 300, then some say 360. Maybe down to 260. I have been to Nikon seminars where they said 220 would be fine, and that few people would notice 180. Not too helpful. I have seen some who have printed out at various resolutions and reported their findings. Another data point.

Then if I look at the on-line calculator I previously linked to ( https://www.pointsinfocus.com/tools/minimum-resolution-calculator/ ) and use the following:
- 40 x 60 inch print
- Viewed at the distance of the diagonal of the print (72 inches)
- for a person with 20/20 visual acuity

The results are reported as:
- Pixels/inch: 48
- Pixels/cm: 18.9
- Minimum Image Dimensions (pixels): 1920 x 2880
- Image Resolution in MP 5.5
- Est. Needed Bayer Sensor Resolution 7.3

Or, if you want to be confused more and click on "inscribed pixels" the result is:
- Pixels/inch: 68
- Pixels/cm: 26.8
- Minimum Image Dimensions (pixels): 2720 x 4080
- Image Resolution in MP 11.1
- Est. Needed Bayer Sensor Resolution 14.8

Interesting - is all I can say.

---

Then there is the issue of how good do you want it to be. There are a multitude of ways to look at this:
- As good as possible, dam the time and effort it takes.
- Fit for use (you get to determine what that means).
- Understand your audience. Make it good enough for them.

I am an engineer and yes, I am anal retentive. I am always amazed when I go to a show of photographs from famous photographers from the 60's, 70's and so on. Images taken with 35 mm film, blown up to somewhere between large and absolutely huge sizes. Others look at the scene and say "how beautiful" or whatever. I look at the images and see grain noise, significant lack of sharpness.

I was on a quest to find the sharpest prints from a printer that I could find. Dozens of prints to dozens of labs. Looked at them using a magnifying lens. I found one that I believe to be the "best" from a sharpness standpoint. It is from WhiteWall in Germany - their ultraHD Photo Print.
https://www.whitewall.com/us/photo-prints/ultra-hd

And their prints ARE sharper than any others I have seen.

A few problems with this. They are in Germany and I live in the US, so delivery times are longer than US labs. They roll their prints up in a tube - to get through international shipping, and they always arrive quite curled up. And then, I often prefer prints on matte paper, and they print on glossy Fuji Crystal Archive Maxima.

---

So now I think about my audience, who am I making the print for. If it is for me, and I want the sharpest print I know of - I will do all the tricks I know of and use WhiteWall ultra HD.

But generally I don't do this. I like what inkjet prints on matte paper look like. The largest I have displayed on my walls is 24x36 inches, and because of where it is located normal viewing distance is about 36 inches for me and for most people. My prints look great at this distance. I know if I look at them with my magnifying lens and compare these inkjet prints to the WhiteWall ultra HD I will see a difference, but that is not what I am after.

So I consider my audience, the amount of time I want to invest in the image, and other considerations. I live with the fact that my prints are not perfect - hard for an engineer to do ;-)



Dec 01, 2022 at 09:45 AM
dclark
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


@JimboCin your comments about PPI and viewing distances are important considerations and the calculator you link looks good. That is one important part of deciding whether the image file is sufficient to produce a good print.

The other important consideration is how the printer will use the file you send to make the final print. In particular will the printer resample the file to align the pixels with the printer specific printing capabilities. The most demanding careful photographers and artists want to control that resampling process and not depend on the printer driver to resample the image file without producing any artifacts. If artifacts are produced, they want to correct them. That is demonstrated by Sean Bagshaw in the linked video above. In order to do the resampling yourself you need to know the capabilities of the printer. Some print services provide information such as how the image file will be resampled and color profiles for the particular printer and paper, but some provide it only if asked. Some won't provide it even if asked, which IMO is a good reason to find another printer. You often see 300ppi (Canon IJ printers) and 360ppi (Epson IJ printers). If the files are not already at 300 or 360 the print driver will resample the image before half-toning. Print drivers are pretty good so usually it is good enough. Only the most demanding customers will ever notice any artifacts, and then usually only on large prints that require up sampling to get the required PPI.

You commented about the excellence of the Whitewall prints you received. Those prints are continuous tone prints made using a scanning laser beam exposing silver halide paper. Those printers may also resample to align pixels with the printer requirements but the exposure of the paper is continuously varied so there is no half-toning, unlike IJ prints which are half-toned using small dots (high DPI). The laser and led exposed contone prints look great but have limited paper finishes offered, since they require chemical processing. Excellent products but offered by only a few printers.

Dave



Dec 01, 2022 at 11:34 AM
JimboCin
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Hi Dave,

Thanks for your comments!

I am aware of the continuous tone printing method that WhiteWall (and others) use to print. Yes, they have their limitations - everything in photography is a matter of trade-offs. In my testing I have found this method to give more accurate colors, and to my eye they are better in sharpness than IJ. Others experience may be different.

But yes, VERY limited in papers (generally luster/lustre and sometimes glossy). The main reason that I use and generally prefer IJ printing is the papers. I prefer the look of matte paper finish with their non-reflective surface, so IJ prints.

The printer I use is in my opinion the Midwest's leading professional digitizing and printing organization. Really expert and professional people in the business for many decades.

I do have and use printer profiles for the papers and printers I work with. My printer uses Canon IJ and wants 300 - so this is what I give them.

I make my prints to hang on my wall and for me to be happy with. In any case have not seen artifacts in any of my IJ prints, even the large ones, and I do look at them carefully.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment, Dave!

Jim



Dec 01, 2022 at 06:14 PM
elkhornsun
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Check with the lab as most printers will downscale to 240dpi. I would rather use my software to do this and not rely on the printer.

I would expect that with metal prints that there is dithering being done by the printer and so less resolution is needed than for print on photo paper.

I would have an 8x10 section of the planned print sent to the lab for printing. Then you can see at low cost what the results are in advance. I have done this with banners using output 8x10 at 140dpi, 180dpi, and 240dpi to see how many dpi was actually needed.

Something else to keep in mind is that the normal viewing distance for a 40x60 print is far greater than for a 8x10 size print. Wall posters are fine at 140dpi and billboard images are usally done at 110dpi.



Dec 04, 2022 at 04:28 PM
Lara_F
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


Thanks for the info on downscaling to 240. I can check on that.

Great suggestion on getting 8x10 metal prints at different resolutions. I actually ordered the print already, but that is a great suggestion for the future. I do eventually want another large print or two and my files taken with an older camera have even less resolution. This would be a good exercise to see how far I can take those.

The print I just ordered won't be seen close at least not in this house, but the next print I do will be in a stairway - it would normally be viewed from the living room so several feet away, but people would get close to it when they walk up stairs so it has to hold up pretty well.

This is definitely a good learning experience!



Dec 04, 2022 at 11:44 PM
elkhornsun
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 40x60 Print - Best way to resize?


I was suprised when I saw a gallery exhibit of prints from 35mm and 2-1/4 negatives. Closeup the prints looked very soft as I had become accustomed to those make with newer optics or with large negatives from 6.5 x 8.5 inches in size and larger.

Dithering greatly reduces the actual dpi needed as it fills in the gaps between the dots of ink and this is a key advantage of inkjet and dyesub printers.

In terms of file size to send to a lab the 16-bit TIFF can be huge and a 8-bit may suffice, expecially if it is going to be a B&W print. Some labs can accept a PSD file but no telling what happens to it in the process of their making a print.






Dec 10, 2022 at 04:15 PM
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