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M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)

  
 
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


I just sent this to Leica:

Request feature for a future firmware:

Allow the user to decide, via menu option, if the shutter closes when powering down the camera or when the camera comes back from standby mode.

This would make the M11 behave like most mirrorless bodies, including the SL series, which do not make any shutter sound when turned on or off. Many find the "thump" noise from the shutter opening every time the camera is turned "on" or coming back from standby mode unpleasant to the entire shooting experience. Not to count that it could potentially increase shutter wear from all the extra shutter opening and closing.

Just like with other M bodies, it would be great to hear the shutter only when taking pictures.

Is there a particular reason the M11 behaves this way?



Aug 03, 2022 at 02:54 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I just sent this to Leica:

Request feature for a future firmware:

Allow the user to decide, via menu option, if the shutter closes when powering down the camera or when the camera comes back from standby mode.

This would make the M11 behave like most mirrorless bodies, including the SL series, which do not make any shutter sound when turned on or off. Many find the "thump" noise from the shutter opening every time the camera is turned "on" or coming back from standby mode unpleasant to the entire shooting experience. Not to count that it could potentially increase shutter wear
...Show more

It would be a good feature/option to have. I think the M cameras have traditionally had their shutters closed when powered off because before the M11 and live metering, a closed shutter was the starting point for the exposure when using the rangefinder.

Canon closes their shutter on power-off on the R/R5/R6 (and assuming R3) with their reasoning being it protects the sensor and keeps dust falling on the sensor to a minimum.



Aug 03, 2022 at 11:08 PM
Rob L
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


I was walking with my M11 and carrying it very loosely at my side in my right hand with a wrist strap on and the sensation of vibration when the camera went to sleep was easily felt. Likewise, with a tap of the shutter to wake it up, I could feel the shutter action. Kind of unnerving to think that the shutter vibrates that much!


Aug 04, 2022 at 08:11 AM
LBJ2
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Sony after many requesting the same for years, added the shutter close on/off feature to the Sony A1. Personally, I close the shutter, so happy to finally have this feature on my Sony camera and something I always liked about my Leica M cameras. Just like the M11, you can hear the shutter open and close on the Sony A1 when turning the camera on/off--just a different sound. But Sony adds this as a menu option realizing not everyone wants this feature for various reasons. Hopefully Leica can apply the same choice per the request above in the M11 menu too. One of those nice-to-haves I think.


Aug 04, 2022 at 10:59 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


highdesertmesa wrote:
It would be a good feature/option to have. I think the M cameras have traditionally had their shutters closed when powered off because before the M11 and live metering, a closed shutter was the starting point for the exposure when using the rangefinder.

Canon closes their shutter on power-off on the R/R5/R6 (and assuming R3) with their reasoning being it protects the sensor and keeps dust falling on the sensor to a minimum.


---------------------------------------------

Rob L wrote:
I was walking with my M11 and carrying it very loosely at my side in my right hand with a wrist strap on and the sensation of vibration when the camera went to sleep was easily felt. Likewise, with a tap of the shutter to wake it up, I could feel the shutter action. Kind of unnerving to think that the shutter vibrates that much!


Unlike all previous M bodies, I find the M11 shutter behavior unpleasant. Before the new M11, metering in classic mode was done via shutter blades so it made sense to have the blades closed all the time (except when in live view mode). However the M11 now behaves like any other mirrorless cameras, including the SL series, and uses the sensor to calculate metering. If it stays open all the time during shooting, just leave it open at shutdown as well. That would remove the unnecessary blade action potentially making the shutter mechanism last longer while also decreasing power up time.

IMO, the shutter should only be engaged when actually taking pictures and not every time the camera goes to standby or shuts off. It's really my only personal cons in a sea of pros for this camera. It's not just the extra sound and vibration. It's also shutter wear without taking actual pictures!

If the reason for this is to avoid dust going on the sensor, it is not effective as dust finds the M11 way easier than previous models where the shutter is always closed in classic mode. Dust is also very easy to clean. I would love if Leica provides the ability to stop the shutter from closing at standby and power down in a firmware update.

I have used the Leica Fotos "customer support" link in the app settings to request this firmware option. For those who agree with me, please send a request to Leica as well.



Aug 04, 2022 at 11:04 AM
LBJ2
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Fred Miranda wrote:
---------------------------------------------

Unlike all previous M bodies, I find the M11 shutter behavior unpleasant. Before the new M11, metering in classic mode was done via shutter blades so it made sense to have the blades closed all the time (except when in live view mode). However the M11 behaves like other mirrorless cameras now, including the SL series, and uses the sensor to calculate metering. If it stays open all the time during shooting, just leave it open at shutdown as well. That would remove the unnecessary blade action potentially making the shutter mechanism last longer while also decrease power up
...Show more

I compared with my Sony A1 with "shutter close" feature turned On and the shutter does not seem to close when the A1 goes into standby mode, only if I turn the A1 off.

Wondering for what purpose Leica closes the shutter when the M11 goes into standby mode. Either way, I think it's a good idea to provide as an option if they can via firmware update.



Aug 04, 2022 at 11:08 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


LBJ2 wrote:
I compared with my Sony A1 with "shutter close" feature turned On and the shutter does not seem to close when the A1 goes into standby mode, only if I turn the A1 off.

Wondering for what the purpose Leica closes the shutter when the M11 goes into standby mode. Either way, I think it's a good idea to provide as an option.


I don't even get the logic that this prevents dust from going on the sensor. Perhaps only temporarily.
Once the dust goes on the blades, it's already inside the chamber. Eventually that dust will end up on the sensor. I'd say just leave it open all the time and only close it when taking pictures. That's how it works on the Leica SL series.

Having the blades open all the time will make the M11 sound like other M bodies and behave like 95% of the mirrorless bodies in the market.
BTW, the A1 option to close the shutter at power down is an option in firmware, not the default. Canon was the one who started this mess.



Aug 04, 2022 at 11:15 AM
LBJ2
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I don't even get the logic that this prevents dust from going on the sensor. Perhaps only temporarily.
Once the dust goes on the blades, it's already inside the chamber. Eventually that dust will end up on the sensor. I'd say just leave it open all the time and only close it when taking pictures. That's how it works on the Leica SL series.

Having the blades open all the time will make the M11 sound like other M bodies and behave like 95% of the mirrorless bodies in the market.
BTW, the A1 option to close the shutter
...Show more

This is the same debate going for years on the Sony forums until Sony finally added the feature as an option which seems to have calmed the pro/con debates.

Interestingly Sony presents a warning not to leave the closed shutter blades exposed to direct/strong light 😳



Aug 04, 2022 at 11:22 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I don't even get the logic that this prevents dust from going on the sensor. Perhaps only temporarily.
Once the dust goes on the blades, it's already inside the chamber. Eventually that dust will end up on the sensor. I'd say just leave it open all the time and only close it when taking pictures. That's how it works on the Leica SL series.

Having the blades open all the time will make the M11 sound like other M bodies and behave like 95% of the mirrorless bodies in the market.
BTW, the A1 option to close the shutter
...Show more

The closed shutter on Canon makes more of a difference when changing lenses in non-ideal situations in the field. Indoors with no air moving, there’s probably zero reason for a closed shutter. Should be an option as you proposed to leave it open, though.

A while back, there was a post on one of the Canon FB groups from someone that had tried to rip out the shutter thinking it was a removable protector from the factory, much like the plastic over the LCD



Aug 04, 2022 at 02:32 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


highdesertmesa wrote:
The closed shutter on Canon makes more of a difference when changing lenses in non-ideal situations in the field. Indoors with no air moving, there’s probably zero reason for a closed shutter. Should be an option as you proposed to leave it open, though.

A while back, there was a post on one of the Canon FB groups from someone that had tried to rip out the shutter thinking it was a removable protector from the factory, much like the plastic over the LCD


Honestly it's the only negative I have about the M11 at the moment. My copy never freezes or had any issues. I wish more of us would send this request to Leica. Either by using the Leica Fotos "customer support" link or emailing them directly at:
[email protected]

There is another issue regarding color but I will start a new thread on this.



Aug 04, 2022 at 03:14 PM
 


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Desmolicious
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Ok a quick anecdote just because we are talking about the shutter being always open on mirrorless cameras...
A few years ago I sold a 25 0.95 lens to someone who owned a Panasonic M43. I was to meet him at a local casual restaurant to do the deal.
He had decided to get food while waiting for me (he showed up early) and as I handed him the lens, he stuck his greasy thumb onto the exposed sensor of his camera! It left a perfect thumb print like someone dusted for prints at a crime scene!
All I could think was how tough it was going to be to make that sensor clean again!

The end. Back to your regular programming!.



Aug 04, 2022 at 07:36 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Desmolicious wrote:
Ok a quick anecdote just because we are talking about the shutter being always open on mirrorless cameras...
A few years ago I sold a 25 0.95 lens to someone who owned a Panasonic M43. I was to meet him at a local casual restaurant to do the deal.
He had decided to get food while waiting for me (he showed up early) and as I handed him the lens, he stuck his greasy thumb onto the exposed sensor of his camera! It left a perfect thumb print like someone dusted for prints at a crime scene!
All I could think was how
...Show more



As long as there are no scratches, sensors can be cleaned though. However if his greasy thumb had touched or gone through the blades, I think the end of this story would’ve been way sadder.



Aug 04, 2022 at 07:54 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Fred Miranda wrote:
There is another issue regarding color but I will start a new thread on this.


Good luck getting that addressed. Where I work, we don't typically do retail, but we do leverage our supplier arrangements to get cameras and lenses for friends of the owner where we set up and test the new gear and then act as quasi technical support for the end-users. A long-time M user traded in her M10R for a new M11 when they were first released and was terribly disappointed with the color response. I showed her various work-arounds and filters that could help adjust the color to what she was accustom to, but she was adamant it was something Leica needed to address. When their rep, after listening patiently to her for a good hour or more on a conference call, suggested she try Capture One instead of Adobe software, she decided to leave both the call and Leica.



Aug 04, 2022 at 08:24 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


freaklikeme wrote:
Good luck getting that addressed. Where I work, we don't typically do retail, but we do leverage our supplier arrangements to get cameras and lenses for friends of the owner where we set up and test the new gear and then act as quasi technical support for the end-users. A long-time M user traded in her M10R for a new M11 when they were first released and was terribly disappointed with the color response. I showed her various work-arounds and filters that could help adjust the color to what she was accustom to, but she was adamant it was something
...Show more

The colors we see in post-processing are just numbers and thankfully this can be adjusted to taste by using a preset or profile. I will start a thread on this but basically the Leica M11 colors have a noticeable tint bias. This should have been addressed by Leica and the cause could be the sensor stack glass used.

I'm working with Cobalt and they will release a M10-R profile for the M11 which pretty much gives M11 users M10-R colors but the issue is still with tint bias which needs a negative adjustment. (usually around -7 to -10 depending on the image)

In other words, the M11 has a magenta bias problem but colors are accurate imo.



Aug 04, 2022 at 10:03 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Fred Miranda wrote:
The colors we see in post-processing are just numbers and thankfully this can be adjusted to taste by using a preset or profile. I will start a thread on this but basically the Leica M11 colors have a noticeable tint bias. This should have been addressed by Leica and the cause could be the sensor stack glass used.

I'm working with Cobalt and they will release a M10-R profile for the M11 which pretty much gives M11 users M10-R colors but the issue is still with tint bias which needs a negative adjustment. (usually around -7 to -10 depending on
...Show more

But do you find the bias is situational? I've only had my hands on her M11 (and it was the original firmware), but I found the tint problem to change based on the method of setting WB, either custom or camera preset/auto and the ISO used (low ISO skewed magenta, ISO above 3200 skewed green).

Accurate colors weren't really her complaint, anyway. It had more to do with color balance OOC, and she didn't want to hear about the impact of increasing resolution and changing sensor tech. In her opinion, Leica Kodachromed the M line with the M11.



Aug 04, 2022 at 11:59 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


freaklikeme wrote:
But do you find the bias is situational? I've only had my hands on her M11 (and it was the original firmware), but I found the tint problem to change based on the method of setting WB, either custom or camera preset/auto and the ISO used (low ISO skewed magenta, ISO above 3200 skewed green).

Accurate colors weren't really her complaint, anyway. It had more to do with color balance OOC, and she didn't want to hear about the impact of increasing resolution and changing sensor tech. In her opinion, Leica Kodachromed the M line with the M11.


Yes, it happens regardless of the white balance. White balance can be set to auto, preset, kelvins or even using custom WB. The magenta tint bias is always there. In Lightroom, the good news is that -8 tint in average seems to fix the colors issues. Even when using a profile that mimics the M10-R colors, tint adjustment is always needed.

Tell her to make a preset with a -8 tint in Lightroom and I think she will be way happier with the colors.



Aug 05, 2022 at 12:07 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, it happens regardless of the white balance. White balance can be set to auto, preset, kelvins or even using custom WB. The magenta tint bias is always there. In Lightroom, the good news is that -8 tint in average seems to fix the colors issues. Even when using a profile that mimics the M10-R colors, tint adjustment is always needed.

Tell her to make a preset with a -8 tint in Lightroom and I think she will be way happier with the colors.


I'm not seeing much of a magenta bias in C1. I think it's a problem with the Lightroom profiles. I bought the Cobalt M11 profiles, and the neutral ones make it even better. Even in Lightroom, the magenta bias is nothing like I saw with the GFX 50S/R. Maybe it's something going on with the hardware (IR/UV cut filter issue on some units maybe), because Thorsten Overgaard mentioned the magenta bias in his M11 colors video on YouTube (you have to go about 3/4 of the way into the video to get to it). He as a few shots posted on Leica Forum called "colors of East Berlin" which demonstrate what I think you're referring to. I've never seen a tint that magenta with my M11, even in Lightroom. He was/is getting magenta tint on grey concrete – I just don't see that with mine.

What I do dislike about my M11 colors is they're not as good as the SL2-S (or the M10-R as you mentioned). Perhaps a profile issue, but I think it may be due to the new IR/UV filter in the M11. Considering going back to the SL2-S because the colors were just dead-on perfect.



Aug 06, 2022 at 07:34 PM
Desmolicious
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


I know this is stepping back a generation, but is there this issue w the 10-r? I have one but, er, have not used it much..


Aug 06, 2022 at 07:50 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Color problems? I don't know about the M10-R but from my experience with the M9 and M240, each has 'unique' color response. I think with the M9 it's very much IR contamination and choice of CFA with a CCD sensor. It's so easy to get really blotchy skin tones in artificial light with default LR settings. With the M240 I don't like the Adobe default profile (LR6 standalone) because it has a magenta cast that I find difficult to remove. I usually use embedded instead, but even there skin tones tend to lean too much to the red/magenta side. SOOC Jpegs look OK, IMO, though are too blocked up most of the time (I always shoot DNG anyway). BTW, similar magenta bias in LR6 if using the Adobe profile for Canon 1DXII files. So I think some of it is Adobe. M240 still has IR contamination problems though, which I see very frequently in black, gray and dark blue textiles, especially when shooting it alongside my Canon gear, which shows much less, if any, IR contamination. Coincidentally I'm processing such a job right now where I see the IR contamination in almost every image - people outside at a garden party - and I have to do the M240 files as a separate batch from Canon.

Back when the M11 was first out, someone on LUF posted DNGs for everyone to play with. The one I processed definitely had a magenta bias but I didn't feel like it was difficult to remove. At the time I wasn't sure if it was inherent to the camera or another example of crummy Adobe profiling. I thought the file was quite durable during processing and in the end the colors were very pleasing. But I have yet to process any M11 files with people/skin tones.



Aug 06, 2022 at 09:17 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · M11 shutter behavior (request firmware update)


Desmolicious wrote:
I know this is stepping back a generation, but is there this issue w the 10-r? I have one but, er, have not used it much..


Love the M10-R color. But I remember getting a comment or two about some of my M10-R images being too yellow/green. Not sure if it was because that was true or if they were just so used to their own camera's magenta bias that mine looked off to them.



Aug 07, 2022 at 12:23 AM
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