fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | People Photography | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
  

Archive 2022 · Nicole

  
 
Dneufarth
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · Nicole


I met Nicole at the Dayton Art Institute several months ago, and we recently met at the library for a portrait session. I usually prefer b&w, but her eyes demanded color, I think. C&C always greatly appreciated. Derek

EDIT: I have replaced all the images with hopefully improved color as suggested.





1







2







3







4







5







6







7



Edited on Jul 02, 2022 at 07:52 AM · View previous versions



Jul 02, 2022 at 05:18 AM
uptagraw
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · Nicole


Great shots but I think the skin tone could use some work. Did you bump the saturation way up?


Jul 02, 2022 at 07:22 AM
Dneufarth
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #3 · Nicole


uptagraw wrote:
Great shots but I think the skin tone could use some work. Did you bump the saturation way up?


Thank you for pointing that out. One reason I prefer b&w is that I am extremely color blind—about half the time that color looks good to me, it isn’t good color. I will certainly try to fix it.



Jul 02, 2022 at 07:37 AM
KE_Photo
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · Nicole


Dneufarth wrote:
I usually prefer b&w, but her eyes demanded color, I think. C&C always greatly appreciated.
<snip>One reason I prefer b&w is that I am extremely color blind—about half the time that color looks good to me, it isn’t good color. I will certainly try to fix it

EDIT: I have replaced all the images with hopefully improved color as suggested.


The above B&W preference makes some kind of sense I guess... shooting/processing color is nice though! Unfortunately there are still some struggles here - without having seen the first pass to compare, it's hard to say. Are you shooting a color reference and creating a profile for each unique lens and lighting condition (also white balance)?

In the 1st image - her ruddy cheek skin tone looks OK, but then around her mouth and other areas (mid tones and shadow) I'm seeing greens/yellows appear. It's especially noticeable going between this image and #2 - which shows a lot more redness in comparison.

This all leaves me to guess maybe you're adjusting color by eye, on individual images one at a time, rather than doing a color profile and WB for the entire set and sticking with it? Even if it's "wrong"/not wrong/artistic license having a cohesive palette for a set might help - just a thought.




Jul 02, 2022 at 09:24 AM
Danpbphoto
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · Nicole


Her green eyes are haunting Derek! She is a naturally lovely young woman! No heavy makeup, eyelashes, piercings...just natural beauty!!!
I believe you did her very proud and the b/w's are wonderful!
Derek!
Dan



Jul 02, 2022 at 09:31 AM
airfrogusmc
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · Nicole


Strong series Derek.


Jul 02, 2022 at 12:58 PM
airfrogusmc
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · Nicole


Derek, I would just pull back a little on the vibrance. These would all look great in B&W though.


Jul 02, 2022 at 05:49 PM
Dneufarth
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #8 · Nicole


KE_Photo wrote:
The above B&W preference makes some kind of sense I guess... shooting/processing color is nice though! Unfortunately there are still some struggles here - without having seen the first pass to compare, it's hard to say. Are you shooting a color reference and creating a profile for each unique lens and lighting condition (also white balance)?

In the 1st image - her ruddy cheek skin tone looks OK, but then around her mouth and other areas (mid tones and shadow) I'm seeing greens/yellows appear. It's especially noticeable going between this image and #2 - which shows a lot more redness in
...Show more

Thank you so much for the detailed critique, you correctly surmise that I do not have a color workflow. But having one would certainly improve my occasional color work, and some even suggest that it would improve b&w work as well. All of my pp skills are grossly lacking, which I am slowly beginning to address because it does make a difference in one’s work.

Being color blind is only a small part of my b&w preference—I have always loved b&w since my first roll of tri-x back in the 80s. Now I only shoot digital and own a Leica Monochrom, and if Sony offered an A1 monochromatic camera I would prefer it to my current A1.

Thank you for your encouragement.



Jul 02, 2022 at 05:56 PM
Dneufarth
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · Nicole


Danpbphoto wrote:
Her green eyes are haunting Derek! She is a naturally lovely young woman! No heavy makeup, eyelashes, piercings...just natural beauty!!!
I believe you did her very proud and the b/w's are wonderful!
Derek!
Dan


Thank you so much Dan, much appreciated.



Jul 02, 2022 at 05:57 PM
Dneufarth
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · Nicole


airfrogusmc wrote:
Strong series Derek.


---------------------------------------------

airfrogusmc wrote:
Derek, I would just pull back a little on the vibrance. These would all look great in B&W though.


Thank you Allen very much. They are great in B&W, but now and then the dark side beckons me when eyes are such beautiful colors.



Jul 02, 2022 at 06:00 PM
DanielScott
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · Nicole


The use of natural light is good, as always. There are some discrepancies in skin tone between some of the shots, most noticeably in the second shot which I think has too strong of a red/pink tint to the skin compared to the others, and a bit of a yellow/green tint in the first shot.

Also be careful how you pose and light someone when they are wearing a bright color such as red; in the last photo it appears that her shirt is reflecting red light into her face. Honestly I'm a little hesitant making this suggestion; the last time I pointed out to someone here that their subject's clothes were reflecting unwanted colors back into their face, they called me color blind and suggested that I don't have the proper equipment to either view or critique their photos.



Jul 02, 2022 at 07:45 PM
RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · Nicole


Derek, colors are definitely a challenge on the skin tones here.

It looks like you are getting mixed lighting on her face, as different areas have different color. Unclear how much of that is coming from the angle of lighting picking up the reds to reflect on the contours that Daniel references ... or the contour of the face is blocking some of the blue light (note the blue light in the eye). But, I think the gobo effect of the countours are blocking some blue light (creating a yellow / green) in what would normally be the "shadow" areas. Global color may be slightly askew, but the mixed difference is what is most detrimental (drives an inconsistent, blotchy look) for me.

The luminance reduction in shadow areas (gobo) is typically well noted. But in non-uniform, ambient lighting, the shadows also incur the color shift, depending on the orientation to the warm / cool areas of the light ... coupled with the global temperature.

I've moved the hue in the red to +9 and the yellows to a -22 ... in an effort to bring the mixed lighting hue closer to homogeneous. Where you land it can vary, depending on how warmly you want to render her skin tone / hair color on the global basis ... but, the main point being that the mixed lighting hue can be brought closer together. Studio shooters don't contend with this as often, when there lighting is match / homogeneous. But ambient shooters can run into it, particularly when there is lighting coming from two different directions, or two different sources.

I know it's typically not "good form" to post an image on another in presentation, so I'll pull it down if you prefer. But, I think the illustration of the mixed lighting is easier shown, than explained. First one is with my adjustments, second one is the original ... note the yellow areas in the original.

Black and white reduces hue issues, so that's always an option for tricky mixed lighting problems. But, they can usually be managed, just takes a bit of study and patience to understand where the cool light is illuminating vs. where the warm light is illuminating ... when the lighting is not uniform.

Dial it in to taste, but I think you have to approach the color / lighting selectively ... not relying on global adjustments only.

That said, nice captures of a lovely young woman.

HTH



P.S. I understand that the issue of color blindness make it even more challenging. I'd recommend studying Dan Margulis, (or others) regarding how to read the color by numbers. One of the key ingredients is to use the logic of when the subject should be the same color vs. when the light is / isn't the same color (hue) of luminance.

It's a tricky subject for regular folks, with good color perception, but even color blind persons can benefit from the numbers ... and the knowledge of the applied logic. Dave (Lighthound) is but one example of a color blind person, that I've worked with on this. If I can be of further help, just let me know.

Hint: Raise your saturation to 100% as a diagnostic tool, then back it down to 75%, 50%, 25%, etc. and watch the numbers change, as a key indicator to your direction of change (warm, cool, magenta, etc.). This can give you a clue to when you have mixed lighting, and how much / what direction, etc. for your adjustments are warranted.

Also, I noticed that your posted profile was not sRGB (P3), so what you might be seeing something different on your monitor, than we are seeing if the profiles are mismatched. Might be something to be aware of, too.





Selective adjustments to red and yellow hue







Original



Edited on Jul 03, 2022 at 09:40 AM · View previous versions



Jul 03, 2022 at 08:36 AM
Dneufarth
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #13 · Nicole


DanielScott wrote:
The use of natural light is good, as always. There are some discrepancies in skin tone between some of the shots, most noticeably in the second shot which I think has too strong of a red/pink tint to the skin compared to the others, and a bit of a yellow/green tint in the first shot.

Also be careful how you pose and light someone when they are wearing a bright color such as red; in the last photo it appears that her shirt is reflecting red light into her face. Honestly I'm a little hesitant making this suggestion; the last
...Show more

Thank you Daniel for the input, it is always appreciated. It is hard to imagine that kind of reaction from anyone towards you—I find you to be one of the most genuine people on this forum.

Agree with you about the shirt. I learned a long time ago, that because my portrait work is usually very close to my subject, I must be careful about my own clothes, too.



Jul 03, 2022 at 09:29 AM
Dneufarth
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · Nicole


RustyBug wrote:
Colors are definitely a challenge on the skin tones here.

It looks like you are getting mixed lighting on her face, as different areas have different color. Unclear how much of that is coming from the angle of lighting picking up the reds to reflect on the contours that Daniel references ... or the contour of the face is blocking some of the blue light (note the blue light in the eye). But, I think the gobo effect of the countours are blocking some blue light (creating a yellow / green) in what would normally be the "shadow" areas. Global color
...Show more

Kent, this is all exceedingly helpful information, you are very generous. Thank you. And the images for comparison are also much appreciated.

I was wondering when someone would get to your point that while the color is a challenge that it is caused by the mixed lighting situation, which by the way in b&w is beneficial to some of these images.



Jul 03, 2022 at 09:43 AM
RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · Nicole


Dneufarth wrote:
Kent, this is all exceedingly helpful information, you are very generous. Thank you. And the images for comparison are also much appreciated.

I was wondering when someone would get to your point that while the color is a challenge that it is caused by the mixed lighting situation, which by the way in b&w is beneficial to some of these images.


Yes, B&W is definitely a readily available benefit to such situations. When I have pics that are "special", I'll take the time to address the mixed lighting corrections. But, sometimes going B&W is so much easier ... and, I genuinely like B&W.

Kinda like using the channel mixer for B&W control, just doing so in color. Really, not that difficult if you are already accustomed to channel mixing in B&W. In B&W, we often use channel mixer to drive colors apart because their tonal value is "too similar". Here, we have the opposite where the hue is "too different". So instead of driving a wedge between our channels to craft more difference (luminance) ... we are building a bridge between our channels to craft less difference (hue).

I'm sure you get the gist of it. You've been around long enough ... just sometimes our eyes don't pick up on things ... 100% saturation is great tool for helping tired eyes (or otherwise challenged). Then it's a mental logic of what you want to drive apart vs. bridge together with your HSL channel components. BTW, I masked her eyes, so no changes were made there, since I figured you had them where you wanted them.

Again, nice set with the lovely young lady.



Jul 03, 2022 at 09:52 AM
Danpbphoto
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · Nicole


RustyBug wrote:
Derek, colors are definitely a challenge on the skin tones here.

It looks like you are getting mixed lighting on her face, as different areas have different color. Unclear how much of that is coming from the angle of lighting picking up the reds to reflect on the contours that Daniel references ... or the contour of the face is blocking some of the blue light (note the blue light in the eye). But, I think the gobo effect of the countours are blocking some blue light (creating a yellow / green) in what would normally be the "shadow" areas.
...Show more

Well stated "RB"!!! Excellent discourse on lighting. I learned something from you, Daniel and others commenting here!

That's what FM is supposed to be about!
Dan



Jul 03, 2022 at 10:11 AM
RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · Nicole


Thanks Dan. Glad you found it helpful ... and yes, helping our fellow FMers is part of what makes FM such a great site.

Fred ROCKS !!!

Danpbphoto wrote:
Well stated "RB"!!! Excellent discourse on lighting. I learned something from you, Daniel and others commenting here!

That's what FM is supposed to be about!
Dan




Jul 05, 2022 at 09:16 AM
KE_Photo
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · Nicole


RustyBug wrote:
I think you have to approach the color / lighting selectively ... not relying on global adjustments only.


Yes - but... IMO this pass was maybe not selective enough? To my eye maybe a bit OTT removing red tones which are a natural element to all types of skin tone. Draining her lips of red is particularly noticeable, so I would suggest masking them off from the red removal. I know it wasn't meant to be perfect, so YMMV.

Keep in mind masks do not have to be pure on/off black/white. Besides the obvious option of layer opacity on an adjustment layer (using LESS than 100% of a "reduce redness" Hue/Saturation adjustment for instance) - using a brush with very low flow allows one to paint in/out any given effect for more refinement with subtle gradations and transitions. A simple example of this would be to paint a person's skin to slowly/softly have more red tonality in the cheek area - for instance. Sorry to digress here, the images are nice regardless!



Jul 05, 2022 at 09:25 AM
RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #19 · Nicole


+1

That's what I meant regarding how warmly you want to present her skin tone. If you want the contrast to her lip color higher or lower, that can be achieved with less or more red channel.

Kinda depends on how much you want your light color to raise or reduce contrast ... subjective, indeed.

KE_Photo wrote:
Yes - but... IMO this pass was maybe not selective enough? To my eye maybe a bit OTT removing red tones which are a natural element to all types of skin tone. Draining her lips of red is particularly noticeable, so I would suggest masking them off from the red removal. I know it wasn't meant to be perfect, so YMMV.

Keep in mind masks do not have to be pure on/off black/white. Besides the obvious option of layer opacity on an adjustment layer (using LESS than 100% of a "reduce redness" Hue/Saturation adjustment for instance) - using a brush with
...Show more



Jul 05, 2022 at 11:09 AM
James Markus
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #20 · Nicole


Derek,
A lovely set. I wouldn't feel bad about being color blind - as most males have some problems in that area.
My solution was to use a color checker card on the first few shots of each set up. Then in PP you just click the neutral eyedropper on the 18% gray square, and usually that gets you most the way there. This is in Lightroom, ACR, or Photoshop/Bridge, but other programs have the same global adjustment. I really like all the compositions, but seeing the whole head could make for a more engaging image - not withstanding her beautiful eyes would be a bit further away.
Jim


Dneufarth wrote:
I met Nicole at the Dayton Art Institute several months ago, and we recently met at the library for a portrait session. I usually prefer b&w, but her eyes demanded color, I think. C&C always greatly appreciated. Derek

EDIT: I have replaced all the images with hopefully improved color as suggested.





Jul 05, 2022 at 09:35 PM
       2       end




FM Forums | People Photography | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account