gdsf2 wrote:
Really, you don't have to have the last word every time. It is not a debate.
Seriously, I agree that it is not a debate.
I was just trying to explain the disconnect the same way you did, and have a constructive and polite conversation. I don't even see that we are disagreeing about anything. No more agenda than than that.
Heck, I didn't even use the "Last Word shortcut key" since you posted you don't like to use them either. (its a joke...)
Jan 15, 2022 at 02:40 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
gdsf2 wrote:
This is really sounding like a video game control. “”To jump, press X and O together.” To super jump, while holding X and O, press the green button.”
I think I am going to underutilize the camera. And that is OK. I will just miss a shot now and then. I have no interest (ability) in memorizing all of these command sequences for the ultimate shortcuts while at the same time composing and metering.
I have always sucked at video games.
I share the same deficit. When my 27 year old son and I used to play video games together when he was in his teens he would just laugh at my inability to do those sorts of combinations. They would be pretty useless to me as well.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I share the same deficit. When my 27 year old son and I used to play video games together when he was in his teens he would just laugh at my inability to do those sorts of combinations. They would be pretty useless to me as well.
We are more and more running computers more than cameras these days. The young and the agile will inevitably shoot circles around us. It is inescapable, and we should endeavor to enjoy it. It is a good thing.
Nah, just concentrate on making images that show vision and authorship regardless of what camera is used. All that matters at the end of the day is how powerful an emotion the image brings about in it’s viewer.
Think about how many incredible images are being made with iPhones and not because they are getting better, which they are but because of how bold and talented the person behind it is.
gdsf2 wrote:
This is really sounding like a video game control. “”To jump, press X and O together.” To super jump, while holding X and O, press the green button.”
I think I am going to underutilize the camera. And that is OK. I will just miss a shot now and then. I have no interest (ability) in memorizing all of these command sequences for the ultimate shortcuts while at the same time composing and metering.
For what it's worth, and who knows how much of it is user based... I did a couple rounds with my dogs running to me today on a walk. I used Wide Area L and 3D, both set the same Animal.
2 dogs, 2 runs to me each (not running together).
1 round with the WAL and one with the 3D.
The wide area was the winner here, it got each dog from the second I had them released till I ended shooting with them reaching me with the focus staying on their head and often around the eye. The 3D set to Animal, picked up the person releasing the dogs, even though the person was already well behind the dogs when I started focusing, 3d also moved around the head and chest of the dogs more and occasionally wanted to grab a shrub.
Just my observation and there could be a learning curve issue.
Ai_Print wrote:
Nah, just concentrate on making images that show vision and authorship regardless of what camera is used. All that matters at the end of the day is how powerful an emotion the image brings about in it’s viewer.
Think about how many incredible images are being made with iPhones and not because they are getting better, which they are but because of how bold and talented the person behind it is.
JoshmkII wrote:
For what it's worth, and who knows how much of it is user based... I did a couple rounds with my dogs running to me today on a walk. I used Wide Area L and 3D, both set the same Animal.
2 dogs, 2 runs to me each (not running together).
1 round with the WAL and one with the 3D.
The wide area was the winner here, it got each dog from the second I had them released till I ended shooting with them reaching me with the focus staying on their head and often around the eye. The 3D set to Animal, picked up the person releasing the dogs, even though the person was already well behind the dogs when I started focusing, 3d also moved around the head and chest of the dogs more and occasionally wanted to grab a shrub.
Just my observation and there could be a learning curve issue....Show more →
Consistent with my experience with moving animals, birds, etc. With a perched bird 3D often does great, but in my experience when it does, so does Wide-Large.
gannis wrote:
So what Nikon really needs now is a wide area-XXL covering the whole frame! Also I'm looking forward to test what the new AF area mode similar to group, with configurable AF box sizes could do.
Btw, i do see those dancing dots at times in the Z9 when using auto area af but it generally turns into a box very quickly.
Yes, Auto has the dancing red squares. And if you turn of subject detect I assume it does that all the time as it did on previous Nikon cameras.
I would love to see dancing squares in the Wide-Area ones. And I can't wait till the FW updates for custom Wide-Area sizes (if Ricci is correct).
The other thing I would like is to have the Sony ability to continue tracking outside your starting area. So I could target in with a Wide-Area S or L and then let it track full frame. Basically what I'm doing now anyways with starting it in Wide-Area L and then hitting my Auto AF custom button to let me be a bit more lazy on the hand/eye skills
arbitrage wrote:
The other thing I would like is to have the Sony ability to continue tracking outside your starting area. So I could target in with a Wide-Area S or L and then let it track full frame. Basically what I'm doing now anyways with starting it in Wide-Area L and then hitting my Auto AF custom button to let me be a bit more lazy on the hand/eye skills
Ha! That's exactly what I've settled on so far most times anyway!
I should also report that despite the forecast for sunny breaks there was none of that today. Just a tsunami advisory that closed my regular shooting spot.
So once again I shot in pretty cloudy conditions although a little brighter than yesterday.
I just got done culling my 2100 shots from today.
Some quick notes/impressions....all to be taken as preliminary at this stage (especially considering the lighting):
1) Thom Hogan made a comment that Z9 may not show focus indicated as much as A1 but that it was actually in focus when it does (where as A1 isn't). I'm not seeing that. Z9 is actually indicating subject and eye much more readily than A1 does but focus consistency is in and out, in and out, in and out when I go through culling. Not way in and out like off the bird but sharp, sharp, sharp, soft ,soft, sharp, soft, etc. Of course it varies from sequence to sequence. And no my shutter speeds weren't as high as I'd prefer so there is that to consider.
2) So far I think if you present the Z9 a BIF against clean background it is really, really good. Neck and neck with A1 and A9 and I think probably better than R5 (I haven't been able to test R3 yet). And as mentioned above it seems to focus the subject detect box and head detect box more readily than the A1 which often just keeps "dancing the dots" for BIF.
3) BEAF for perched, wading and floating birds is super snappy and I think identical to A1/R5 in its effectiveness. Just like those cameras if the bird is in a pose that you'd actually want as a keeper the eye-af is working. The rest of the time...who cares...R5 still best at identifying birds in whacky poses, but again, who cares. I haven't used Z9 enough yet to see if it gets confused on spots and other feather patterns like R5 and A1 sometimes do.
4) I do see a stronger tendency so far for the Z9 to lose its tracking to backgrounds and water ripples. Obviously worse as the bird is smaller in the frame. I mentioned this in a previous post but certainly Wide-Area is the safest and Auto and 3D can really get lost sometimes.
The good thing about today is I think I now have the camera setup efficiently enough that I can do what I need to do quickly. Sure there are a million things I would change with buttons and customization options if Nikon allowed me to but the system has just enough options and flexibility to make it work in the way I'm accustomed to on an R5 or A9/A1. And of course my muscle memory is now getting dialled into my setup which is half the battle.
One more test day before the work week. Unfortunately no signs of sun. Next weekend forecast is all sun so hopefully that will happen.
arbitrage wrote:
I should also report that despite the forecast for sunny breaks there was none of that today. Just a tsunami advisory that closed my regular shooting spot.
So once again I shot in pretty cloudy conditions although a little brighter than yesterday.
I just got done culling my 2100 shots from today.
Some quick notes/impressions....all to be taken as preliminary at this stage (especially considering the lighting):
1) Thom Hogan made a comment that Z9 may not show focus indicated as much as A1 but that it was actually in focus when it does (where as A1 isn't). I'm not seeing that. Z9 is actually indicating subject and eye much more readily than A1 does but focus consistency is in and out, in and out, in and out when I go through culling. Not way in and out like off the bird but sharp, sharp, sharp, soft ,soft, sharp, soft, etc. Of course it varies from sequence to sequence. And no my shutter speeds weren't as high as I'd prefer so there is that to consider.
2) So far I think if you present the Z9 a BIF against clean background it is really, really good. Neck and neck with A1 and A9 and I think probably better than R5 (I haven't been able to test R3 yet). And as mentioned above it seems to focus the subject detect box and head detect box more readily than the A1 which often just keeps "dancing the dots" for BIF.
3) BEAF for perched, wading and floating birds is super snappy and I think identical to A1/R5 in its effectiveness. Just like those cameras if the bird is in a pose that you'd actually want as a keeper the eye-af is working. The rest of the time...who cares...R5 still best at identifying birds in whacky poses, but again, who cares. I haven't used Z9 enough yet to see if it gets confused on spots and other feather patterns like R5 and A1 sometimes do.
4) I do see a stronger tendency so far for the Z9 to lose its tracking to backgrounds and water ripples. Obviously worse as the bird is smaller in the frame. I mentioned this in a previous post but certainly Wide-Area is the safest and Auto and 3D can really get lost sometimes.
The good thing about today is I think I now have the camera setup efficiently enough that I can do what I need to do quickly. Sure there are a million things I would change with buttons and customization options if Nikon allowed me to but the system has just enough options and flexibility to make it work in the way I'm accustomed to on an R5 or A9/A1. And of course my muscle memory is now getting dialled into my setup which is half the battle.
One more test day before the work week. Unfortunately no signs of sun. Next weekend forecast is all sun so hopefully that will happen.
Great report, and in line with what I am hearing when shooting adapted lenses like the 500 PF. Do you have access to borrow a long native lens like the 100-400 S? I would like to see you do a comparison on the focus consistency, as well as being distracted by water and backgrounds.
I saw a video on YouTube recently where subject tracking started inside the wide area box and the eye tracking box continued outside the wide area box while the subject momentarily drifted out. Are you not seeing the same behavior?
For what it’s worth, it did not seem like that ability was the full frame, just a bit outside the wide area.
arbitrage wrote:
Yes, Auto has the dancing red squares. And if you turn of subject detect I assume it does that all the time as it did on previous Nikon cameras.
I would love to see dancing squares in the Wide-Area ones. And I can't wait till the FW updates for custom Wide-Area sizes (if Ricci is correct).
The other thing I would like is to have the Sony ability to continue tracking outside your starting area. So I could target in with a Wide-Area S or L and then let it track full frame. Basically what I'm doing now anyways with starting it in Wide-Area L and then hitting my Auto AF custom button to let me be a bit more lazy on the hand/eye skills...Show more →
1bwana1 wrote:
Great report, and in line with what I am hearing when shooting adapted lenses like the 500 PF. Do you have access to borrow a long native lens like the 100-400 S? I would like to see you do a comparison on the focus consistency, as well as being distracted by water and backgrounds.
Thanks.
I don't know anyone with a 100-400S. All the Nikon shooters I used to shoot with shoot Sony now. If what I'm seeing is specific to adapted glass or the 500PF itself then I sure hope Nikon starts getting some more native long lenses out on the market ASAP. I mean, what's next, do we all need to buy the fancy $12K 400S with the rumoured new AF motors to get maximum Z9 AF performance?? (now I'm sure the 400S will take the AF up a notch but it shouldn't be needed to overcome background jumping).
I'm always cautious and suspicious of that kind of opinion. I was told many times that my R5 evaluations weren't valid because I was "only" using the RF 100-500 and not a super tele f/4. Well once I got a 600/4 to test my findings didn't change. Yes, that example is sort of backwards given I was testing with native and it was argued an adapted f/4 did better...but still.
RoamingScott wrote:
I saw a video on YouTube recently where subject tracking started inside the wide area box and the eye tracking box continued outside the wide area box while the subject momentarily drifted out. Are you not seeing the same behavior?
For what it’s worth, it did not seem like that ability was the full frame, just a bit outside the wide area.
It will for a small amount. Like maybe 1.5 times the size of the small head AF box in a given direction.
arbitrage wrote:
2) So far I think if you present the Z9 a BIF against clean background it is really, really good. Neck and neck with A1 and A9 and I think probably better than R5 (I haven't been able to test R3 yet). And as mentioned above it seems to focus the subject detect box and head detect box more readily than the A1 which often just keeps "dancing the dots" for BIF.
My (admittedly limited) experience so far with rapidly approaching birds against a clear background is a bit different. The results with Wide Area L show a surprising number of backfocused images in the shot sequence - sharp chest/belly area, soft eyes/head. Feels like the D850/D500 with Group AF yielded a higher rate of sharp images. This is with a 500PF on the Z9.
In Wide S I see the eye or head focus box go out of the wide box quite often. I shot basketball tuesday night and really like both Wide S and Wide L with eye detect on. Wide S worked better and once you got the eye locked on it stuck to it.
The settings book for sport said to use dynamic area small and medium for soccer or basketball. I thought those felt awkward as compared to the wide S and wide L
Dbltfarmer wrote:
In Wide S I see the eye or head focus box go out of the wide box quite often. I shot basketball tuesday night and really like both Wide S and Wide L with eye detect on. Wide S worked better and once you got the eye locked on it stuck to it.
The settings book for sport said to use dynamic area small and medium for soccer or basketball. I thought those felt awkward as compared to the wide S and wide L
For what it's worth, the resolution you posted that at here makes it look soft/out of focus.
I went to your flickr to see if you had it there too, and of course the correct resolution looks much better. You might link to the higher res (I personally link to 5K if I can and use the "frame" option so it doesn't stretch) to give the thread a better idea of what the cam/AF can do.
Okay, thanks. Ive been told in the past to post 1200x1600 format out of LR. I'm a bit of a posting dummy so could you clarify a bit more? Please feel free to PM me as to not muddy the waters of this thread. Thank you.
