p.2 #2 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
AdaptedLenses wrote:
Have to disagree. The R2 specs were nice but was the worst panel for manual focus, bar none. Original A7’s and the A7II were all better.
Huh. Isn't the panel the same? I remember the A7R2 being a step up from the A7 despite the same resolution and size of EVF. It's been a bit since I've used either, esp one after another. I always chalked it up to a better and higher res sensor (easier to discern things) as well as better software.
p.2 #3 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
I think the R2 had a higher res panel but I could be mistaken. I saw speculation once that the R2 moved too a video feed instead of a live raw view of the sensor, couldn't verify that though changing video sharpening seemed to help a little. Also believe it was somewhat related to scaling of the higher density R2 sensor. At any rate, if you use magnification on the A7II and A7RII side by side it's night an day. The R2 is when everyone started looking for moire to find focus...
arduluth wrote:
Huh. Isn't the panel the same? I remember the A7R2 being a step up from the A7 despite the same resolution and size of EVF. It's been a bit since I've used either, esp one after another. I always chalked it up to a better and higher res sensor (easier to discern things) as well as better software.
p.2 #4 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
At less than $2k price range: They all share great sensor. There are a lot of nuances in use for below cameras but in first order they are quite similar.
Panasonic S5:
GOOD: IBIS, video, multiway flip LCD, color, no low pass filter (could be bad for you)
NOT SO GOOD: EVF, small LCD, no shoulder LCD.
Z6/Z7:
GOOD: build quality, IBIS, tilt LCD, thin sensor cover, EVF, LCD, shoulder LCD
NOT SO GOOD: not much, you might feel limited how you want customize your camera
A7x/A7Rx: (mainly before Gen3)
GOOD: lens selection (Vogitlander, zeiss), button customization (could be bad for you though, I dont like too many choice myself)
NOT SO GOOD: IBIS(not as good as other two) EVF&LCD (depend on your price range, the latest ones are better), thick sensor cover, no shoulder LCD
p.2 #5 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
The Sony A9 is my choice for manual focus lenses. It has a very good electronic 3.87 Mdots low latency, no lag, almost real time viewfinder. That viewfinder is so sharp that you can see and nail the manual focus lenses sharpness without the need for focus peaking or magnification. It has both of those if wanted and you can have the magnification function on the joystick when pushing it in and it will magnify where the focus point is placed by the joystick. Also you can shot directly from magnification. So just place the joystick box on the models eye and magnify if needed and shot as soon as it is in focus.
Here an image I shot like that:
I shot the image with a Minolta vintage lens around 50 mm wide open. Either the 45/2 or the 58/1.4, I used both in this session and can't remember which one this image was with. It is my friend Kenneth that is a tattoo artist doing his thing. He is moving slowly when working. I used single frame drive mode. Composed the image and had roughly the right focus and then placed the small focus box over his eye with the joystick and punched in twice on the joystick (the joystick pin has a button function when pushed in) to get max magnification just there and then adjusted the focus on the lens quickly and when his eye was in focus, I pushed the trigger. I did this image after image and had about 85% hit rate.
The trick to use it with manual focus lenses is to turn up the viewfinder sharpness to +3 (actually it is the image profile, but it won't affect the RAW files). You can also get the viewfinder in black and white if you want that as a preview (again won't affect RAW).
The A9 in its special non jello e-shutter mode (made to capture sports) does not even blink in the view finder when a picture is taken (but you can have a small visual indication if wanted). It does not make a sound, it is totally silent (or if wanted just turn on the fake shutter sound). It goes up to 1/32000 as the highest shutter speed so no ND filter problems with fast lenses.
It also has 20 fps and over 241 RAW images buffer. That can be used with slightly moving models to shot burst series of images and just wiggle the camera a little back and forth so the focus goes a little back and forth and one of the images in the series will most likely, at 20 fps, nail the exact focus where it should be and then just throw away the rest.
p.2 #7 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
wolfloid wrote:
I think the OP's definition of affordable and yours might vary.
The A9 seems to be discontinued on most/and or all markets and also with the A9II and A1 being launched used A9s are pretty low these days, at least here in Sweden, but sure what is called affordable can always be debated.
p.2 #8 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
AdaptedLenses wrote:
I think the R2 had a higher res panel but I could be mistaken. I saw speculation once that the R2 moved too a video feed instead of a live raw view of the sensor, couldn't verify that though changing video sharpening seemed to help a little. Also believe it was somewhat related to scaling of the higher density R2 sensor. At any rate, if you use magnification on the A7II and A7RII side by side it's night an day. The R2 is when everyone started looking for moire to find focus...
I had a little freak out way back when the Rii was released because the EVF experience was so different from the original A7 series. I was convinced that it was worse for a good month. But I found that despite the difference, my focusing keeper rate was the same. It isn't worse, it's just different.
Dec 08, 2021 at 08:36 AM
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p.2 #9 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
MAubrey wrote:
I had a little freak out way back when the Rii was released because the EVF experience was so different from the original A7 series. I was convinced that it was worse for a good month. But I found that despite the difference, my focusing keeper rate was the same. It isn't worse, it's just different.
Having used both the A7 II and the A7r II extensively this was my experience too.
p.2 #10 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
You mention trying Fuji's. Have you had a chance to play with an X-H1? Has the high res (3.69m dot) EVF, joystick focus target, excellent grip, and IBIS. A bit chunky for a Fuji APS-C body, but ideal if playing with MF glass.
When X-H1's originally hit the market, they were overpriced, and there was pushback that they didn't feature the absolute latest sensor. Fuji had to drop the price considerably to move units, and as such, nice examples can be found for less than $750.
The rumor mill is all cranked up about a forthcoming X-H2, perhaps in 2 flavors, but I'll let someone else go there first.
p.2 #11 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
I don't claim it to have been less effective, I used both for a long time and probably would take the R2 for it's benefits, but it was distinctly less "sharp" and critical focus took more effort, which in turn made it less enjoyable. To me that's worse, even if results don't change it's become less enjoyable, that's bad.
Actually my decisions would be... if I'm shooting RF glass, if I'm shooting in low light, if I'm shooting some autofocus, then R2 despite focusing experience. But if I'm just using SLR lenses with MF, I'd save a few bucks and get an A7II.
MAubrey wrote:
I had a little freak out way back when the Rii was released because the EVF experience was so different from the original A7 series. I was convinced that it was worse for a good month. But I found that despite the difference, my focusing keeper rate was the same. It isn't worse, it's just different.
p.2 #12 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
A few to consider:
Sony α7C - Full frame 24mp in α6XXX size.
Sony α7SIII - Fat Pixel Full frame that plays nice with rangefinder wides, great sensor for older glass as diffraction limit sets in at F/12 so you can stop down quite a bit.
Fuji GFX 50r - Amazing 33x44 sensor, very good spatial resolution, $3K new in box(!).
Canon EOS M6 Mark II - APS-C for the sweetspot in full frame and medium format glass and unmatched spatial resolution of 158.9 line pairs per millimeter. Diffraction limited at F/4.6.
As to focusing aids, I've found that as the megapixel count grows the less focus peaking helps and the need for easy access to a simple 100% magnification in EVF, back screen or HDMI output / tether is essential. On the Sony α7SIII focus peaking is quite helpful, on the X1D or S1R it's very easy to get out of focus shots using only focus peaking.
p.2 #13 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
AdaptedLenses wrote:
I don't claim it to have been less effective, I used both for a long time and probably would take the R2 for it's benefits, but it was distinctly less "sharp" and critical focus took more effort, which in turn made it less enjoyable. To me that's worse, even if results don't change it's become less enjoyable, that's bad.
Actually my decisions would be... if I'm shooting RF glass, if I'm shooting in low light, if I'm shooting some autofocus, then R2 despite focusing experience. But if I'm just using SLR lenses with MF, I'd save a few bucks and get an A7II.
...Show more →
Right. I'm saying that my experience has been that it initially felt like it took more work, but that it wasn't in reality. Critical focus is still really obvious. It simply looks different than it does on the A7 and A7II and at the beginning that "differentness" threw me off. Then I adjusted and haven't had a problem for the nearly seven years I've used my pair of A7rII's.
p.2 #14 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
Taperwing wrote:
You mention trying Fuji's. Have you had a chance to play with an X-H1? Has the high res (3.69m dot) EVF, joystick focus target, excellent grip, and IBIS. A bit chunky for a Fuji APS-C body, but ideal if playing with MF glass.
I haven't tried the X-H1, but I use an X-E3 and X-T3 on a regular basis. I use the X-E3 more often, but I use the X-T3 for my concert photography, which is more serious "work." I believe they both have the same 3.69m dot EVF, but I don't know if there's any significant difference in terms of the software/performance when it comes to manual lenses.
I do feel like there's a discernible improvement in MF when I move between my X-E3 and X-T3 with the bigger, higher resolution panel - I can more reliably focus manually without zooming in on my X-T3 and A7R2 than on my X-E3. A camera with an EVF that was big and high-res enough that I could reliably MF without ever zooming in might be the holy grail. I think for my eyesight, that is more a matter of the panel size than the resolution, but I'm not sure.
Since the X-T3 came out a bit later than the X-H1, I'd assume that the software might be a bit better, if there's any difference at all? I'm open to hearing otherwise though.
Even with the same panel there can big differences in how well something works for MF - my Fuji X100S, NEX-5R EVF, and Sony A7 all have the same 2.36m dot EVF but there are big differences in which of these worked better for MF. The X100S felt unusable for MF relative to the EVF on my NEX, and that was all a matter of different software.
p.2 #15 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
AdaptedLenses wrote:
I don't claim it to have been less effective, I used both for a long time and probably would take the R2 for it's benefits, but it was distinctly less "sharp" and critical focus took more effort, which in turn made it less enjoyable. To me that's worse, even if results don't change it's become less enjoyable, that's bad.
Interesting. I felt the exact opposite - on the A7R2 I find it easier to get the focus I want without zooming in, because it seems sharper. So much so that I had just assumed there was a panel upgrade. This is true for me in all light situations - most of my shooting is pretty low light (e.g. f/2, ISO 6400-25k, 1/60) and the A7R2 felt like a big improvement for MF there, allowing me to focus manually without zooming in, which definitely helped me get the shot when I may have missed it. After learning that the EVF isn't any bigger or higher resolution on the A7R2, I chalked it up to the higher res sensor being able to discern more detail; it also does better in low light. 🤷♀️
I'm curious - do you have your sharpness cranked up in your JPEG settings? This is a trick I learned from @sebboh and I recommend it to anyone who shoots MF lenses and RAW.
Then again, my original A7 has seen a lot of action and has taken a lot of abuse - and stood up to it well. The EVF glass is pretty scratched up at this point, which by itself makes a big difference in MF experience.
p.2 #16 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
lattesweden wrote:
The Sony A9 is my choice for manual focus lenses. It has a very good electronic 3.87 Mdots low latency, no lag, almost real time viewfinder. That viewfinder is so sharp that you can see and nail the manual focus lenses sharpness without the need for focus peaking or magnification.
The A9 looks like an awesome camera! But yeah, it's not really affordable for me. The budget is somewhat arbitrary I suppose. Being able to shoot without having to zoom in to get critical focus with MF is definitely a bit of a holy grail for me though. I was up to spending $2000+ on a camera body, I'd be thinking about a used Fuji GFX 50R, even though I assume that it has its own drawbacks.
lattesweden wrote:
Composed the image and had roughly the right focus and then placed the small focus box over his eye with the joystick and punched in twice on the joystick (the joystick pin has a button function when pushed in) to get max magnification just there and then adjusted the focus on the lens quickly and when his eye was in focus, I pushed the trigger. I did this image after image and had about 85% hit rate.
My main subject live music - people moving around, sometimes fast and sometimes slow. I work in the same way as you and have on NEX, A7, and Fuji. Compose, put the mag box where you want it, track and follow focus as needed, and punch it at the right time.
lattesweden wrote:
It goes up to 1/32000 as the highest shutter speed so no ND filter problems with fast lenses.
That would be a nice upgrade compared to the A7R2. One of the things I wanted in the A7R2 is the silent shutter, but unlike my Fujis you can't use
p.2 #17 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
arduluth wrote:
The
I haven't tried the X-H1, but I use an X-E3 and X-T3 on a regular basis. I use the X-E3 more often, but I use the X-T3 for my concert photography, which is more serious "work." I believe they both have the same 3.69m dot EVF, but I don't know if there's any significant difference in terms of the software/performance when it comes to manual lenses.
I do feel like there's a discernible improvement in MF when I move between my X-E3 and X-T3 with the bigger, higher resolution panel - I can more reliably focus manually without zooming in on my X-T3 and A7R2 than on my X-E3. A camera with an EVF that was big and high-res enough that I could reliably MF without ever zooming in might be the holy grail. I think for my eyesight, that is more a matter of the panel size than the resolution, but I'm not sure.
Since the X-T3 came out a bit later than the X-H1, I'd assume that the software might be a bit better, if there's any difference at all? I'm open to hearing otherwise though.
Even with the same panel there can big differences in how well something works for MF - my Fuji X100S, NEX-5R EVF, and Sony A7 all have the same 2.36m dot EVF but there are big differences in which of these worked better for MF. The X100S felt unusable for MF relative to the EVF on my NEX, and that was all a matter of different software. ...Show more →
I didn't realize that the X-T3 had the same 3.69m dot EVF. In that case, you would not reap any advantage in trying an X-H1, rather than IBIS. I notice a tremendous positive difference in going from a 2.36m dot EVF to the 3.69m dot.
Have you played with all of various focus assist modes with you X-T3? I'm a little jealous of the digital microprism mode, which my X-H1 does not have. Didn't find the digital split image to be of much use, either in BW or color. Haven't tried the digital split image yet. The following link has a decent rundown, without too much fluff.
As for still image quality, the few reports that I've seen suggest the 4th generation X-trans sensor was optimized for readout speed, which primarily effects video work flow. There is only a very modest increase in pixel count, from 24m to 26m, which on paper, is unlikely to be noticeable. However, I neither own nor have evaluated a Fuji with a 4th generation sensor, and don't have a solid opinion either way.
p.2 #18 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
Steve Spencer wrote:
I like the Sony's for the Voigtlander and Loxia lenses that are built for the system. Those lenses all work so well. What I don't like is having to worry about selecting the focal length for lenses without electronic and having to worry about what shutter mode I am in with fast lenses. I hate it when I forget one of these.
I never felt like IBIS was a killer feature for me. Upgrading from the original A7 to the R2, it was more useful than I'd expected when using AF lenses or sticking to a single prime for an outing. For my real "work" shooting music I'm switching between 2-3 primes quite a bit, 5-15 lens changes during an hour long set. That was the main situation I wanted IBIS for, but practically it doesn't provide much benefit. I can swap a lens in a few seconds by feel without thinking, while working my way through a crowded bar. That's not an option for changing the MF focal length for IBIS. So I end up setting the IBIS FL to the widest I'm shooting and just leaving it there.
I've hoped someone would come out with a work around on it - a dumb electronic adapters that would allow you to set a focal length via USB in the adapter, one you'd just keep on the lens. Or ideally, an adapter with a physical switch for the focal lengths I shoot a lot, but that's too tailored to me to ever happen.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Also, IMO, have a joystick to move the focus point around is a big plus, so I actually like the later cameras better for this feature. If the OP can stand the small EVF of the A7C, then he might well appreciate its very small size. If not I would recommend the A7r III for the bigger EVF (over the A7 III) and joystick (which the A7r II does not have).
I've grown to appreciate the joystick on my Fujis, but I'm pretty fast with moving the box on my Sony using the dials, one for each axis. I'm not a fan of using the touch screen to use the focal point, that just annoys me on every camera I've tried it with.
I haven't seen an A7C in person yet, but in some ways it's the camera I've asked for on this forum for years. But in reality, I don't find it compelling. It's not really an upgrade for me in anyway and a downgrade in other ways. I hope I get the chance to play with one!
Steve Spencer wrote:
I also really like the Fuji GFX 50s for manual focus lenses, but you really need to look to Medium format lenses to adapt. There are some great ones, but the OP probably should only consider the GFX 50r, which is fairly small and with lenses like the Mamiya 55 f/2.8 isn't as expensive as one might think. It probably doesn't offer wide enough lenses for all the concert work the OP wants to do.
I don't think width would be a problem - on FF, I generally shot 28/45/90 or 35/75. At some point, speed starts to be an issue though. I don't know how well the large sensor scales up in terms of high ISO performance especially in the live view, but I have a hard time imagining an f/4 lens being something that cut it.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Finally there is the Leica M option. I really prefer rangefinder shooting for MF lenses, and with some excellent Voigtlander lenses at pretty reasonable prices the cost hurdle is really the camera, but keep in mind Leica cameras hold there value typically for longer than other brands. This means they really tie up your money rather than cost more to own in the long run. For your concert shooting ultimately I think a Leica kit would be ideal and with Voigtlander lenses the price might not be as much of a stretch as you might think.
I'd very much like to try a Leica for my work. It's something I've thought about a lot. I love a good RF OVF, though I wonder a lot how well I'd be able to focus on a moving subject. I've generally felt like Leica brings with it some advantages but also plenty of disadvantages in terms of performance, but I've never had the chance to try. I keep waiting to make a friend who has an M240 I could borrow for a show, but so far no dice. 😂
I recently did a little shooting with a Mamiya Universal Press with Fuji FP3000b and found it hard to work with in the low, muddy light I was working with. So much harder to focus on someone's eye with the RF patch than it would have been in an EVF. I imagine a Leica M camera has a better VF/RF patch than the old MUP though.
p.2 #19 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
Taperwing wrote:
Have you played with all of various focus assist modes with you X-T3? I'm a little jealous of the digital microprism mode, which my X-H1 does not have. Didn't find the digital split image to be of much use, either in BW or color. Haven't tried the digital split image yet. The following link has a decent rundown, without too much fluff.
I've played with them some, but I've never tried using them to shoot a show. I haven't used the digital microprism a ton, but I didn't find that the digital split image helped me focus faster, especially on action. I find myself still zooming in to make sure my focus is perfect. Something to try though!
p.2 #20 · Best (affordable) platform for manual lenses in 2021?
SlowDriver wrote:
The focus guide on Canon is brilliant but it only works with electronically coupled lenses I believe, ie. RF and EF glass, not with other manual lenses.
I know you didn't say Canon-brand RF and EF, but I thought I'd point out that any electronic MF lens for either mount will work. For example, Zeiss ZE, Zeiss Milvus, and Zeiss Otus lenses for EF work. I don't think there are any third party electronic MF lenses made for the RF mount yet.
FWIW, the Canon R5 focus peaking for non-electronic MF lenses is highly accurate at close distance wide open. I was messing around with the Minolta 58 1.2 yesterday wide open and was nailing focus with ease.
