p.27 #2 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
Photosection wrote:
Leaving off the mechanical shutter concerns me on a camera aimed at Photojournalists. Just about every indoor location today is illuminated by a jumbled mess of Amazon/Home Depot sourced crappy/flickering LED lights. Nothing easier than a good old mechanical shutter in such environments, virtually impossible to dial-in that electronic shutter when in close quarter combat with a bunch of hungry paparazzi.
Unlike classic ES, this is a fast stacked ES and actually slightly faster than typical mechanical shutters. So why would it perform worse with flicker?
p.27 #3 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
Daran wrote:
Unlike classic ES, this is a fast stacked ES and actually slightly faster than typical mechanical shutters. So why would it perform worse with flicker?
It is still susceptible to banding produced by LED lighting under certain frequencies. All the stacked sensors are. You can tune the sensor frequency to compensate. Both Canon and Sony offer very advanced ways to do that. So far the Z9 has limited ability in this area.
Even in the most advanced cameras however, if there are multiple LED sources with different frequencies you can still suffer banding. Then only a mechanical shutter can eliminate it. Best to have that option.
p.27 #4 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
1bwana1 wrote:
It is still susceptible to banding produced by LED lighting under certain frequencies. All the stacked sensors are. You can tune the sensor frequency to compensate. Both Canon and Sony offer very advanced ways to do that. So far the Z9 has limited ability in this area.
Even in the most advanced cameras however, if there are multiple LED sources with different frequencies you can still suffer banding. Then only a mechanical shutter can eliminate it. Best to have that option.
Like Daran, I don't know why a fast ES like the Z9 and A1 have would be worse than a mechanical shutter. The shutter curtain speed in the A1 and Z9 is comparable to mechanical shutters. It would seem that the electronic control of the shutter might be better since it makes it more precise in tuning to the frequency of the lighting.
p.27 #5 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
dclark wrote:
Like Daran, I don't know why a fast ES like the Z9 and A1 have would be worse than a mechanical shutter. The shutter curtain speed in the A1 and Z9 is comparable to mechanical shutters. It would seem that the electronic control of the shutter might be better since it makes it more precise in tuning to the frequency of the lighting.
I am not up to discussing the technical details of it in depth. But if you will look into the Sony and Canon manuals you will see that they have put some serious work and features to help deal with it.
The Z9 offers neither a mechanical shutter, or the Anti-Flicker/Variable Shutter features to deal with it at this time. I am guessing that they will eventually find it necessary to add some sort of feature in this regard in firmware.
With the Sony a1 look in the Shooting Menu under:
Anti-flicker Shoot:
and
Variable Shutter:
and
Var. Shutter Set.:
getting these right when shooting in e shutter is important.
In simple cases just switching to mechanical shutter may be enough. It will perform similar to a DSLR in this regard. Sometimes still not enough just like a DSLR however.
p.27 #6 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
Nikon really needs to add a variable shutter option or whatever it is that Canon does. It doesn't happen often, but at least one series of images out of a couple of 100 gets hit with some banding because of the massive LED billboards where I usually do my night time photography.
p.27 #7 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
dclark wrote:
Like Daran, I don't know why a fast ES like the Z9 and A1 have would be worse than a mechanical shutter. The shutter curtain speed in the A1 and Z9 is comparable to mechanical shutters. It would seem that the electronic control of the shutter might be better since it makes it more precise in tuning to the frequency of the lighting.
It's because ES reads the sensor row by row. Let's say the mechanical shutter and ES have the same speed say 1/250s, and let's say you want an exposure of 1/00s, so slower than the shutter speed/scan speed. In the case of the mechanical shutter the whole sensor is exposed at once, since the second curtain can close after the full exposure is taken, but with ES you don't expose the whole sensor at at once, you expose a numbers of rows (number determined by shutter speed) at once and then gradually move down the sensor. Technically, since the sensor is always illuminated you have to clear the charge in each pixel before you start the actual exposure when you press the shutter fully. So if your LED's cycle at say 120Hz say, the different sets of rows will receive different brightness levels as they will be a different parts of the cycle, and hence the banding you see. Now you can choose a shutter speed that is a multiple of the LED cycle speed, but if it's not a nice number like 100/120 you'll need fractional shutter speeds which the Z9 doesn't offer and if there are different LEDs with different cycle speeds well you'r stuffed. Also mechanical shutters can get banding too at higher shutter speeds, since in that case the whole sensor isn't exposed at once, the two curtains create a moving slit that travels down the sensor from top to bottom. Many lights don't cycle at expected frequency of 50/60Hz or multiples thereof due to dimming technology they use. Philips Hue use PWM at 600Hz I read somewhere.
p.27 #8 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
Pixel Perfect wrote:
It's because ES reads the sensor row by row. Let's say the mechanical shutter and ES have the same speed say 1/250s, and let's say you want an exposure of 1/00s, so slower than the shutter speed/scan speed. In the case of the mechanical shutter the whole sensor is exposed at once, since the second curtain can close after the full exposure is taken, but with ES you don't expose the whole sensor at at once, you expose a numbers of rows (number determined by shutter speed) at once and then gradually move down the sensor. Technically, since the sensor is always illuminated you have to clear the charge in each pixel before you start the actual exposure when you press the shutter fully. So if your LED's cycle at say 120Hz say, the different sets of rows will receive different brightness levels as they will be a different parts of the cycle, and hence the banding you see. Now you can choose a shutter speed that is a multiple of the LED cycle speed, but if it's not a nice number like 100/120 you'll need fractional shutter speeds which the Z9 doesn't offer and if there are different LEDs with different cycle speeds well you'r stuffed. Also mechanical shutters can get banding too at higher shutter speeds, since in that case the whole sensor isn't exposed at once, the two curtains create a moving slit that travels down the sensor from top to bottom. Many lights don't cycle at expected frequency of 50/60Hz or multiples thereof due to dimming technology they use. Philips Hue use PWM at 600Hz I read somewhere.
If the ES curtains and the Mechanical Shutter curtains move at the same speed as you assume, then the width of the slit between the first curtain and the second curtain is the same for both the ES and the MS. If the shutter speed is slower than the 1/250sec you assumed for the curtain speed to traverse the sensor, then both the ES and MS will cause the entire sensor to be exposed for a short period of time. That allows a flash to work in normal flash mode, without requiring HSS.
If the ES curtain speed is the same as the MS curtain speed they should both perform the same. The only difference is that for Sony sensors the second curtain moves in 12 row increments, https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1691342, https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1663827/0,
but I don't believe that is the cause of any of the problems discussed with pulsed light sources. The Nikon Z9 also reads out in groups of 12 rows and the Canon R5 reads out in groups of 8 rows. But as I said, I think that has little or nothing to do with this issue.
For the A1, the second curtain mechanical shutter is faster than the second curtain electronic shutter (1/400 sec vs 1/237 sec). That does mean the flash sync speed is better.
As I understand the way the flicker reduction works, it allows the shutter duration between the first and second curtain to be adjusted in small increments so the the light is integrated over a fixed number of full ripples of the light source as the shutter slit traverses up the sensor, and also the exposure fits within the width of the LED pulse. I would like to find an authoritative source that gives a full description, but I can't see how else it could work.
p.27 #9 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
In the mirrorless the sensor cannot be read entirely even with stacked sensor as you said it's 12 or 8 rows at a time. All that's changing is how quickly it takes to read the sensor if it's a stacked sensor, but it still reads by rows. With mechanical if the exposure is longer than the shutter travel speed all the pixels are exposed at once and after the second curtain covers the sensor to end exposure the sensor is then read out. So if the exposure is for the whole sensor at once there can be no banding right? The banding should be less prominent with the faster read speed but in the course of reading the sensor row by row, the light intensity will have changed, but that change should be smaller than with a much slower sensor. Faster varying LEDs should show more brightness variation I would have thought. Something cycling at 2kHz should be worse than one that cycled at 100 Hz say?
p.27 #10 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
1bwana1 wrote:
It is still susceptible to banding produced by LED lighting under certain frequencies. All the stacked sensors are. You can tune the sensor frequency to compensate. Both Canon and Sony offer very advanced ways to do that. So far the Z9 has limited ability in this area.
Even in the most advanced cameras however, if there are multiple LED sources with different frequencies you can still suffer banding. Then only a mechanical shutter can eliminate it. Best to have that option.
"Even in the most advanced cameras however, if there are multiple LED sources with different frequencies you can still suffer banding. Then only a mechanical shutter can eliminate it. Best to have that option."
How do you get this idea? In my opinion that is wrong. All it requires is a certain flicker frequency and even a mechanical shutter can't prevent it usually.
p.27 #11 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
Pixel Perfect wrote:
In the mirrorless the sensor cannot be read entirely even with stacked sensor as you said it's 12 or 8 rows at a time. All that's changing is how quickly it takes to read the sensor if it's a stacked sensor, but it still reads by rows. With mechanical if the exposure is longer than the shutter travel speed all the pixels are exposed at once and after the second curtain covers the sensor to end exposure the sensor is then read out. So if the exposure is for the whole sensor at once there can be no banding right? The banding should be less prominent with the faster read speed but in the course of reading the sensor row by row, the light intensity will have changed, but that change should be smaller than with a much slower sensor. Faster varying LEDs should show more brightness variation I would have thought. Something cycling at 2kHz should be worse than one that cycled at 100 Hz say?...Show more →
Even if you have a mechanical shutter, what is decisive is how the sensor is read out. Global shutter sensors have read-out circuitry on each pixel. This enables them to read every pixel across the sensor plane simultaneously. To my knowledge neither the typical BSI or stacked sensor read out pixels simultaneously.
p.27 #13 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
They rated R3 as worst in AF performance especially in low light, so basically everyone thinks differently.
nobody23 wrote:
Feb 05, 2022 at 11:34 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.27 #14 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
EdwardDye wrote:
They rated R3 as worst in AF performance especially in low light, so basically everyone thinks differently.
it's an unqualified kook squad, look how chris niccolls was salivating over physical controls to move af points, like it's 2015 all over again... remember the dpr z9 test gallery photos, where the af failed repeatedly but suddenly by some miracle the z9 now has the best af??
canon should have gotten an innovation award for eye control af, if they ever port it over to video it could be a game changer for event work.
showing a box on the head of the guy driving the zamboni machine was hilarious, that's not suitable af test material for a stacked sensor sports cam... dpr at it's best
jordan picked z9 for best video, but he still hasn't figured out that it doesn't even have enough d.r. for proper hdr work, per cined lab testing:
"And here, the latitude test confirms our earlier findings, that the dynamic range of the Nikon Z 9 is 1 -1.5 stops less than the competition from Sony and Panasonic. The Sony A1 showed 8 stops of latitude, as well as the Panasonic LUMIX S5, S1, and S1H. The Sony a7S III and a7 IV show 7 stops of latitude.
Just to give you our current benchmark in the lab test, the ARRI ALEXA LF has 5 stops over and 5 stops under = 10 stops of latitude. Thats 4 stops more. See our article here."
p.27 #15 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
Watching this dreck...I almost turned the video off when the Sony shooter was like, "when I don't need the speed of the electronic shutter I can just turn on the mechanical and shoot slowly." And I'm like...I can just put the Z9 to S or CL and just dial down CL to 5fps. These vs videos just get stupid after a certain point. Ok fine I know he's right with the dynamic range, but jeez this is granular. EdwardDye wrote:
They rated R3 as worst in AF performance especially in low light, so basically everyone thinks differently.
Feb 07, 2022 at 04:20 PM
duncang Offline • • • [X]
p.27 #16 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
Someone: "So is there anything that the z9 would be better at than the A1 like what DPreview has presented?"
Mark Smith: "I dont know what those things are? I have yet to see anything the z9 does better."
p.27 #17 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
EdwardDye wrote:
They rated R3 as worst in AF performance especially in low light, so basically everyone thinks differently.
Whenever you see presenters on the front grinning and posing for the video you know it is just there for entertainment, just like Tony and Chelsea grinning at each other. If you want to be entertained, watch, if you want a chance of real information and not misinfotainment, you might get it from a more serious looking presenter, but even that can't be guaranteed.
p.27 #18 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
The guys at DPR have become almost comical in their approach and lack of competent content. I think this is mostly driven by the pressure to produce frequent content that produces clicks. Clicks equal money. The This vs That content is the easy way out.
p.27 #19 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
1bwana1 wrote:
The guys at DPR have become almost comical in their approach and lack of competent content. I think this is mostly driven by the pressure to produce frequent content that produces clicks. Clicks equal money. The This vs That content is the easy way out.
Has DPR ever had really good content?
To be honest, I read them for announcements and a pretty decent introduction to the camera's specs and layout paired with hilariously bad example photos. They used to also be a good menu reference back when they still included menu trees in their reviews.
The rest of their content has been worthless except for a handful of articles they got Roger Cicala to write.
p.27 #20 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 The 10 main differences"
mawz wrote:
Has DPR ever had really good content?
To be honest, I read them for announcements and a pretty decent introduction to the camera's specs and layout paired with hilariously bad example photos. They used to also be a good menu reference back when they still included menu trees in their reviews.
DPR is good for basic stuff like when they test rolling shutter for video or basic video performance. However, when it comes to the final 10% of performance (i.e. which camera will actually be better in the most challenging erratic action situations and used for hours), they are useless, so I didn't even bother to read or watch any of their A1/R3/Z9 comparisons. TBH maybe 0.01% of their audience would really even care about those details.
