p.1 #1 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
I'm new here, so perhaps I missed it, but searching the forum I have found no discussion of this issue, and it seems pretty important.
Double back button focus is a superb new possibility with the R5. The common way I have seen to implement it is to have the AF-ON button set to default as your left-BBF, initiating whatever focus method you have selected in the main camera settings, usually Spot AF. The * button is used as right-BBF to initiate Face-Tracking AF, and the obvious and widely advocated approach is to use the Customize Buttons menu to assign "Eye Detection AF" to the * button. But there's a problem with this.
BACKGROUND
The issue relates to the setting in menu AF5.1 "Initial Servo AF point for Face-Tracking AF". If you're not familiar with this setting, it's best to play around with the main focus method set to Face-Tracking AF, and come back to double-BBF later. The default setting in menu AF5.1 is the third option AUTO. In AUTO, for Face-Tracking AF there is no small focus box displayed in the viewfinder, and the software just guesses what you want to focus on. Place two identical objects in frame (I use two bottles set on a table) and AUTO will initiate on the one closest to the center of frame. If you take this AF5.1 setting out of AUTO into one of the other two possible settings, in Face-Tracking AF you now see a small focus box that TELLS it where to initiate. You can move the small focus box anywhere in the frame with the joystick, and tracking will initiate on the object you specify. The difference between the two non-auto settings becomes apparent if you switch back and forth between Face-Tracking AF and Spot-AF. With menu AF5.1 set at the first option, the small box in Face-Tracking AF moves independently of the small box in Spot-AF. With menu AF5.1 set at the second option, they move together.
PROBLEM.
With dual back button focus I think most people don't want to be in the AUTO setting for menu AF5.1. When you push right-BBF to start tracking, you don't want the software to guess where you want to initiate tracking. You want tracking to initiate at the place where you were pointing the left-BBF Spot AF focus box. So you want menu AF5.1 to be set to the second option. The problem is that if you have set up right-BBF by assigning "Eye Detection AF" to the * button, there is a firmware bug that it just ignores your choice in menu AF5.1 and stays in the AUTO setting. You can prove this to yourself by putting two bottles on a table - go from left-BBF to right-BBF. When it's starts tracking it will always initiate at the object closest to the center of frame, even if you were pointing the Spot-AF focus box at something else.
SOLUTION
In Customize Buttons, don't assign the * button to "Eye Detection AF". Instead, assign it to "Register/recall shooting func". Notice that the INFO button then lets you register a setup. Un-check all except two things: AF method = Face-Tracking & AF operation = ON. The * button now operates in exactly the same way as your right-BBF to engage Face-Tracking AF, but now it DOES obey your selection in menu AF5.1.
p.1 #2 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
I don't know if that is a bug, that is just how it works. The custom button option "Eye Detection AF" always does AUTO. I guess maybe you can request Canon to change this but I had always considered this to be how they wanted it and not a bug.
Your solution is the way I used the R5 when I first got it. I actually had one back button to Eye Detection AF when I wanted it to work in AUTO mode (via the "bug") and had my main AF mode on another back button (set in AF1 menu) that would use the Single Point set via the AF5.1 menu (1st or 2nd setting).
FYI, you can also use the custom button setting AF/Metering Start, hit INFO to enter Detail Set and change the AF mode to Face-Tracking AF on that short list (only 4 options) to achieve the same thing you are doing with Reg/Rec Shooting Function. I reserve my Reg/Rec Shooting function for the 3rd back button on far right as the AF/Metering Start/Detail set doesn't work on that button as I recall.
However, after many months with the R5 I switched things around entirely. The only way to see the pre-eye detect white box is to have your main AF mode be Face-Tracking and the AF-5.1 set to AUTO. This is also the only way to be able to use the directional joystick to switch between multiple eyes detected. You don't get the white box if you use the non-Auto options in AF5.1 and you don't get it if you use a custom button set to Eye Detection AF. So I started to run it this way. I found that seeing the white box show up if the system had detected the eye was far more powerful than aiming the Single Point and starting Eye-AF from there. Of course once I set it up in this manner there is no way to use the Single Point starting point. I would only engage my Face-Tracking AF if I saw the system had found the eye with the white box. Therefore I wouldn't run into issues where I'd hit Face-Tracking and it would jump to other things because it hadn't found the eye. With a 2nd back button set to do Spot AF I could target Spot AF onto a bird that the Face-Tracking wasn't yet "seeing" and then usually after doing that it would "see" the eye, show me the white box and I'd engage my main AF for Face Tracking and could move along from there.
p.1 #3 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
arbitrage wrote:
FYI, you can also use the custom button setting AF/Metering Start, hit INFO to enter Detail Set and change the AF mode to Face-Tracking AF on that short list (only 4 options) to achieve the same thing you are doing with Reg/Rec Shooting Function.
This is useful - had assumed that these settings would carry over to all buttons you've assigned to AF/Metering Start, but you're right they don't. Does this send me down a path to quintuple-back-button-focus (probably followed soon after by loss of sanity)?
arbitrage wrote:
However, after many months with the R5 I switched things around entirely...
I have contemplated switching left and right BBF for the reasons you describe. Each setup has its advantages, but it's certainly pretty cool to look through your viewfinder to see what's happening in the distance, and almost before you can process what you're looking at, your camera spontaneously tells you "Hey, I found an eye, and I'm ready to go if it's attached to an interesting body".
p.1 #4 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
arbitrage wrote:
I reserve my Reg/Rec Shooting function for the 3rd back button on far right as the AF/Metering Start/Detail set doesn't work on that button as I recall.
Yes, it looks like the AF-ON and * buttons can be assigned "Metering & AF start" with independent Detail Sets. But other buttons that have "Metering & AF start" have no Detail Set.
So I think we are tragically limited to a theoretical maximum of quadruple-BBF, because the DOF button is a fourth button that can be assigned Metering and AF start or Eye Detection AF. Well, okay I guess the DOF button is on the front not the back, but you know what I mean.
p.1 #5 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
Ralph B wrote:
Yes, it looks like the AF-ON and * buttons can be assigned "Metering & AF start" with independent Detail Sets. But other buttons that have "Metering & AF start" have no Detail Set.
So I think we are tragically limited to a theoretical maximum of quadruple-BBF, because the DOF button is a fourth button that can be assigned Metering and AF start or Eye Detection AF. Well, okay I guess the DOF button is on the front not the back, but you know what I mean.
When I first got my R5 I had the three back buttons and the DOF button and I was using shutter AF so I had a lot going on. In the end I settled on Shutter AF with Face-Tracking Auto (to see that pre-AF square), Spot AF on AF-ON, Zone AF on * and Wide Zone on that third button.
p.1 #6 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
arbitrage wrote:
When I first got my R5 I had the three back buttons and the DOF button and I was using shutter AF so I had a lot going on. In the end I settled on Shutter AF with Face-Tracking Auto (to see that pre-AF square), Spot AF on AF-ON, Zone AF on * and Wide Zone on that third button.
How did you go about moving the spot point if you were using it on the AF-ON button? Did you just leave it centered?
p.1 #7 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
Jesse Evans wrote:
How did you go about moving the spot point if you were using it on the AF-ON button? Did you just leave it centered?
Yes just leave it centered. I really only used it to hone in on a bird in order to get the Eye-AF working. I found if I focused on the bird with the Spot then the Eye system would usually figure things out and I'd be back to the shutter to recompose (if needed) and shoot with Eye-AF.
p.1 #8 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
As we've discussed, the big advantage of having Face-Tracking AF as the "main" setting (shutter or left-BBF) is that you see all the magic happening when it picks out eyes.
But the thing that annoys me about this setup is that for some reason with Face-Tracking AF set the Magnify button is disabled, and I really like to use that sometimes when the subject is not going anywhere to manually get perfect focus. Is there some reason for this? I cannot see why it's a technical constraint - whatever AF method you have set, it is suspended while magnified anyway.
p.1 #10 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm talking about the 6X - 15X magnify button, and asking why it's disabled when you're in Face-Tracking AF method. What's the relevance of crop mode to that?
p.1 #11 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
Ralph B wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm talking about the 6X - 15X magnify button, and asking why it's disabled when you're in Face-Tracking AF method. What's the relevance of crop mode to that?
I'm telling you how to zoom using a Canon mirrorless body and not lose face tracking. You can set up almost any button to do that zooming.
p.1 #12 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
I'm not talking about magnifying while keeping autofocus active. You cannot do that with any autofocus method. Obviously autofocus still works in crop mode, but 1.6X crop mode is not a substitute for 6X magnification.
What I'm talking about is when your subject is not moving and you have some time, and you want to magnify 6X or 15X and check that you are perfectly sharp using manual focus. For some reason the magnify button is disabled if you're set to Face-Tracking AF. I don't understand why this needs to be the case - in every other AF method it just suspends AF temporarily why you are magnified.
I can use the lens switch to go to MF then magnify, then put the lens switch back to AF. But it's painful to have to do that every time.
At this point, this is the main reason that I prefer to keep Spot-AF on Left-BBF and Face-Tracking on Right-BBF.
p.1 #13 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
Some lenses are drive by wire and MF doesn't work on those unless you turn off AF on the lens. Perhaps this is a lens by lens issue? Also, I cannot remember if there is a setting somewhere that allows you to use the focus ring and temporarily put the lens into MF mode when using it vs not being able to use it when in AF mode, I will have to look.
p.1 #14 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
No, it's not that. MF itself works fine in any AF method without needing to toggle the lens switch to MF, you just turn the ring and you're automatically in MF until you activate AF again. It's just the magnify button - the camera gives you a specific message that magnify is disabled when you are set Face-Tracking AF method.
p.1 #15 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
Hi,
This is a limitation that could potentially be addressed in firmware. Have you reached out to Canon with this request yet?
Link to find the Canon Support page for your region: https://global.canon/en/support/
p.1 #16 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
TeamSpeed wrote:
Some lenses are drive by wire and MF doesn't work on those unless you turn off AF on the lens. Perhaps this is a lens by lens issue? Also, I cannot remember if there is a setting somewhere that allows you to use the focus ring and temporarily put the lens into MF mode when using it vs not being able to use it when in AF mode, I will have to look.
There is now a menu item to do just that with the 100-500 and the 400III/600III. I guess it probably works on other lenses too. That option was added in one of the previous FW updates.
It basically allows DMF override just like we were all used to with DSLRs.
p.1 #17 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
arbitrage wrote:
I don't know if that is a bug, that is just how it works. The custom button option "Eye Detection AF" always does AUTO. I guess maybe you can request Canon to change this but I had always considered this to be how they wanted it and not a bug.
I've been mulling this over. I had assumed it was a bug - why would you have a menu that allows you to customize a behavior, but then ignore it? But maybe you're right, since there is a subtle difference in the two ways to set it up.
(1) If you assign your BBF to "Eye detection AF", then it this engages Face-Tracking AF method with eye detection enabled regardless of whether eye detection is on or off in the main settings. And with AUTO initiation point, ignoring your setting in menu AF 5.1 (this is the part I had assumed was a bug).
(2) If you assign your BBF to "Register/recall shooting function" as I describe in the OP, or to "Metering & AF start" with a Detail Set as you describe in the second post in the thread, then you are initiating Face-Tracking AF method. Whether or not it also engages eye detection will depend on whether you have eye detection on in the main settings. The initiation point will obey your setting in menu AF 5.1.
Why might method (1) have been programmed to deliberately ignore your setting in menu AF 5.1 and always go AUTO? Well, it would allow you to have Face-Tracking AF on BOTH of your double-BBF buttons, but operating in different modes. You could have them with eye detection off for left-BBF, on for right-BBF. You could have eye detection on for both, but left-BBF with a manually-specified initiation point, right-BBF with AUTO initiation.
So it may be intentional - but if so, pretty poorly thought out, since it will be more common to have Face-Tracking on only one of the two BBF, and the obvious expectation would be for a button assigned "Eye-AF" to obey your chosen setting in menu AF 5.1. It took me a long time to work out the actual behavior by trial and error.
p.1 #18 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
Ralph B wrote:
I've been mulling this over. I had assumed it was a bug - why would you have a menu that allows you to customize a behavior, but then ignore it? But maybe you're right, since there is a subtle difference in the two ways to set it up.
(1) If you assign your BBF to "Eye detection AF", then it this engages Face-Tracking AF method with eye detection enabled regardless of whether eye detection is on or off in the main settings. And with AUTO initiation point, ignoring your setting in menu AF 5.1 (this is the part I had assumed was a bug).
(2) If you assign your BBF to "Register/recall shooting function" as I describe in the OP, or to "Metering & AF start" with a Detail Set as you describe in the second post in the thread, then you are initiating Face-Tracking AF method. Whether or not it also engages eye detection will depend on whether you have eye detection on in the main settings. The initiation point will obey your setting in menu AF 5.1.
Why might method (1) have been programmed to deliberately ignore your setting in menu AF 5.1 and always go AUTO? Well, it would allow you to have Face-Tracking AF on BOTH of your double-BBF buttons, but operating in different modes. You could have them with eye detection off for left-BBF, on for right-BBF. You could have eye detection on for both, but left-BBF with a manually-specified initiation point, right-BBF with AUTO initiation.
So it may be intentional - but if so, pretty poorly thought out, since it will be more common to have Face-Tracking on only one of the two BBF, and the obvious expectation would be for a button assigned "Eye-AF" to obey your chosen setting in menu AF 5.1. It took me a long time to work out the actual behavior by trial and error.
Yes, I think the intention of the Eye Detection AF custom button option was to do something similar to what the older Sony cameras did. Basically a button to ignore everything else and just jump to full Auto Eye-AF.
When I first got the R5 I was actually pretty excited to discover that I could have both methods of initiating Eye-AF on two different buttons. But I soon became unimpressed with the non-Auto way and stopped using it. I am planning to revisit the non-auto way over the next three days while I have my CPS loaner R5. I know a lot of people do like that method.
p.1 #19 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
...I soon became unimpressed with the non-Auto way and stopped using it. I am planning to revisit the non-auto way over the next three days while I have my CPS loaner R5. I know a lot of people do like that method.
I have barely used my R5 yet in the field, so I don't know how I will feel about it eventually. I was actually quite surprised that an experienced user would do what you said you did, switch from manually specified initiation point to AUTO. I had guessed that for most people it might work the other way around. Using the AUTO mode (with Face-Tracking on left-BBF) is super cool because you can see the magic happening, as it picks up eyes spontaneously and lets you choose which eye you prefer. But my guess was that in practice it would be much quicker to have it in manual initiation mode, point the little box (by moving the camera, not the joystick) to specify what you want to track and you're off. Looking at what the AUTO mode is doing and toggling the joystick is fun, but seems not as fast as aiming the little box by moving the camera and hitting the button.
p.1 #20 · R5 double back button focus - bug in firmware
Ralph B wrote:
I have barely used my R5 yet in the field, so I don't know how I will feel about it eventually. I was actually quite surprised that an experienced user would do what you said you did, switch from manually specified initiation point to AUTO. I had guessed that for most people it might work the other way around. Using the AUTO mode (with Face-Tracking on left-BBF) is super cool because you can see the magic happening, as it picks up eyes spontaneously and lets you choose which eye you prefer. But my guess was that in practice it would be much quicker to have it in manual initiation mode, point the little box (by moving the camera, not the joystick) to specify what you want to track and you're off. Looking at what the AUTO mode is doing and toggling the joystick is fun, but seems not as fast as aiming the little box by moving the camera and hitting the button....Show more →
Honestly I almost never took advantage of moving between eyes with the indicators in AUTO. But I did like to have the preview white box to know if the system was going to get lost or not. I'm going to put some more time in with the Single Point activation method. It has been about 5 months since I sold my R5 in favor of the A1 so I can't even really remember why I didn't like that method. I think I felt like I was taking too much time to accurately place the Single square on the bird instead of the AUTO just quickly activating without the user having to be as precise. I also think the other reason is that even though I could find times that I wanted to use the Single Point method, I couldn't have a button with that method active and have AUTO on my shutter button. I use shutter button AF on MILCs (after years of BBF on DSLRs). I like to have the AUTO type of AF mode (just like my Wide mode on Sony) on my shutter button for quick reaction to unexpected or erratic BIF. I'll report back over the next few days and let you know how it goes.
