My long time wish is for a 600mm f5.6 PF, with intended use on a 45mp FF body.
A few reasons why I would instantly pre-order a Z600PF, but will pass on the Z200-600, and probably (but not surely) also on a Z600/4:
-prime level clarity, contrast and detail
-Z200-600mm will almost certainly be rounded to 600mm from around 565mm at the long end at infinity, and when internally zooming, around 525mm at closest focus.
This puts the PF at 600mm (or 590mm) f5.6 and the zoom at 565mm f6.3, at infinity
-f5.6 at a true focal length of 600mm gives me my ideal background separation, f5.6 at 500mm (500PF) has not enough separation, f4 at 600mm has too much separation. A personal preference of course.
-600mm f5.6 should provide a significantly better AF experience than 500mm f5.6, at least when used for birding.
-A 600/5.6PF is still very portable and suitable for handheld shooting, opposed to a Z600mm f4 lens.
-A Z600/f5.6 would cost around half the price of a Z600/4
How does a certain focal length and aperture always give you ideal background separation? Do you only shoot from a blind in a single environment? Distance to subject and distance to background would be changing all the time in real world wildlife photography. I'd much rather take as wide of an aperture as I can lift and stop it down if I need more DOF for a given subject/background relation.
arbitrage wrote:
How does a certain focal length and aperture always give you ideal background separation? Do you only shoot from a blind in a single environment? Distance to subject and distance to background would be changing all the time in real world wildlife photography. I'd much rather take as wide of an aperture as I can lift and stop it down if I need more DOF for a given subject/background relation.
It is 600 f/4 PF or bust for me...
Of course this is meant as an average. I fully agree that the flexibility of a 600mm f4 lens aperture-wise, just stopping down when you want to, and opening up when desired, is far better. But this comes at a high price and significant gain in weight and size.
I merely mean to settle for the ideal compromise. Odd thing is, that when it comes to consumer level lenses, people are prepared to go really far where sacrifice of background separation is concerned, see lenses like the Canon 600 and 800 f11 DO which appear to be very popular. When it comes to "serious" lenses, there are only the large, heavy and very costly options.
I would hope for some middle ground, but know this is only wishful thinking that does not relate to actual choices. The interesting thing with the Nikon PF lenses though, is that it is the only lens type where it might just happen.
Not in the near future, but perhaps someday.
I would prefer a 600mm f4PF over a conventional 600mm f4 though, for sure, especially when this means that weight and length can be further reduced. I hike and cycle at all times, and never with a tripod or monopod, even though I have them.
ChrisMak wrote:
My long time wish is for a 600mm f5.6 PF, with intended use on a 45mp FF body.
A few reasons why I would instantly pre-order a Z600PF, but will pass on the Z200-600, and probably (but not surely) also on a Z600/4:
-prime level clarity, contrast and detail
-Z200-600mm will almost certainly be rounded to 600mm from around 565mm at the long end at infinity, and when internally zooming, around 525mm at closest focus.
This puts the PF at 600mm (or 590mm) f5.6 and the zoom at 565mm f6.3, at infinity
-f5.6 at a true focal length of 600mm gives me my ideal background separation, f5.6 at 500mm (500PF) has not enough separation, f4 at 600mm has too much separation. A personal preference of course.
-600mm f5.6 should provide a significantly better AF experience than 500mm f5.6, at least when used for birding.
-A 600/5.6PF is still very portable and suitable for handheld shooting, opposed to a Z600mm f4 lens.
-A Z600/f5.6 would cost around half the price of a Z600/4...Show more →
The zoom is rumored to be not an S Line lens, so I would not be expecting prime IQ.
Well it's probably been sufficient time for a poll to compare to last year's preferences, when a total of 52 of us voted ( and I voted for both 400 f4 and 600 f5.6). In retrospect, the Aug poll should have been more specific as to F versus pure-Z mount.
Actually I suspect Nikon may still go with F-mount if they release a future PF, albeit with perhaps "hybrid" AFP for Z AF as well as older F DSLR AFC
chambeshi wrote:
Well it's probably been sufficient time for a poll to compare to last year's preferences, when a total of 52 of us voted ( and I voted for both 400 f4 and 600 f5.6). In retrospect, the Aug poll should have been more specific as to F versus pure-Z mount.
Actually I suspect Nikon may still go with F-mount if they release a future PF, albeit with perhaps "hybrid" AFP for Z AF as well as older F DSLR AFC
That would be cool. But if that happened I would just get that and use it with a D500. Whereas, if they release a 600 PF f/5.6 Z, I would just have to get that Z9 Shhh, don't tell Nikon. Actually, the Z9 looks interesting regardless and I will probably get it anyway. It's a good time to be a wildlife photographer....
That's the thing isn't it, Nikon has chosen to concentrate on their new and future proof Z mount. What does that do with their motivation to develop and bring out new lenses that will only help sell the aging D500 and D850, bodies that may not even be updated with the acceleration of the transition to mirrorless.
You could argue, that if Nikon has achieved dslr level AF with their coming Z9, they will have the confidence, or feel comfortable enough, to let go off the D850 and D500 lines.
The D6 was perhaps a sign of pulling the plug on R&D for dslr cameras, while the R&D for the Z9 will no doubt help future Z bodies.
We will know by the end of the year I guess. If the Z9 hits the target, it may all be over for future dslr bodies and lenses.
Canon has taken that road before them after all...
JasonTheBirder wrote:
That would be cool. But if that happened I would just get that and use it with a D500. Whereas, if they release a 600 PF f/5.6 Z, I would just have to get that Z9 Shhh, don't tell Nikon. Actually, the Z9 looks interesting regardless and I will probably get it anyway. It's a good time to be a wildlife photographer....
Nikon need all possible sales, as they continue to grow Z mount usage upwards and outwards. They will be insane to ignore the attraction new PF telephotos among extant DSLR users.
The D6 is not yet a year old. Release of a D880 has been pending for months, according to intersecting rumours. Lastly, Nikon execs in recent interviews keep endorsing continuing support of the DSLRs and F system including new products.
Z9 sales are likely to be capped by the high price - as evident in the total of pro DSLRs sold over past 1+ decade ie D3 and since. Some will be able to afford brand new Z telephotos with a Z9 @ $6+ How many pragmatists will budget on a Z9 (perhaps using DSLR tradeins) and adapt F-mount telephotos? Nikon must see the obvious here.
The real money is in the optics especially as the company recovers from restructuring. The priority must surely be to keep and grow their user base of Pros and Hobbyists.
Actually, it will likely need a Z8 with Z9 AF, and even better released with a Z90 aka Z80 DX prosumer with Z9 AF (ie true prosumer D880 equivalent) to sell sufficient Z telephotos, which expand the investment in Z mount by birders and wildlife photographers.
It is highly unlikely for Nikon to release any DSLRs or F mount lenses this year. I feel their top priority for 2020 is to release all the Z mount bodies and lenses. Also, releasing a D500 or D850 update will definitely impact the sale of Z9 and Z lenses or mirrorless transition in general.
chambeshi wrote:
Nikon need all possible sales, as they continue to grow Z mount usage upwards and outwards. They will be insane to ignore the attraction new PF telephotos among extant DSLR users.
The D6 is not yet a year old. Release of a D880 has been pending for months, according to intersecting rumours. Lastly, Nikon execs in recent interviews keep endorsing continuing support of the DSLRs and F system including new products.
Z9 sales are likely to be capped by the high price - as evident in the total of pro DSLRs sold over past 1+ decade ie D3 and since. Some will be able to afford brand new Z telephotos with a Z9 @ $6+ How many pragmatists will budget on a Z9 (perhaps using DSLR tradeins) and adapt F-mount telephotos? Nikon must see the obvious here.
The real money is in the optics especially as the company recovers from restructuring. The priority must surely be to keep and grow their user base of Pros and Hobbyists.
Actually, it will likely need a Z8 with Z9 AF, and even better released with a Z90 aka Z80 DX prosumer with Z9 AF (ie true prosumer D880 equivalent) to sell sufficient Z telephotos, which expand the investment in Z mount by birders and wildlife photographers....Show more →
I know Nikon ensured endorsement of their dslr product lines. I am less assured that this will actually take effect though. I can only compare with Canon, that released a very good 1DX update, but terminated the 7D and 5D lines.
I don't know if keeping dslr diehards onboard will be Nikon's main priority when it turns out that the Z9 achieves D6 level performance.
I at least leave room myself for the possibility that Nikon will accelerate on a Z8(00) and Z7(00) release to help sell their fast growing number of Z lenses.
I have no real preference myself, I now use the D500 and sold the Z7 for use with the 500PF.
I do want to get a clear outlook on how these things go, how fast Nikon is likely to end dslr development when they have such a lot of R&D pouring into their Z mount.
Perhaps they will act differently from Canon, but I try not to be too sure of that. I put off a 500mm f4E FL purchase, solely because of the implications in the Z9 development announcement.
Personally, I am not counting on a D500 replacement since the announcement.
@ChrisMak yes, I see your point of view - also skepticism :-) But in contrast to Canon who stated they are stepping away from DSLR, Nikon has not been so tactless and dismissive of its large population of loyal patrons. I feel deep sympathy for those who've spent a fortune in their Canon DSLR systems!
Also the F-mount is a distinctly different, much more venerable ecosystem - somewhat heterogenous certainly eg AI, AIS, G, E, then AFD then AFS etc. The Z investment will certainly continue to expand - newcomers, switchers and upgraders ,as many F shooters keep on shooting their sound gear.
But it's an open question how many upgraders will buy into Z in a hurry. And understandably quite a few will want to keep on shooting their DSLRs with a Zed or more. This existing customer base will be strongly tempted by F-mount telephotos - PF especially which perform well across these overlapping ecosystems
OTTH, considering we have the 300 PF and 500 PF for F, then a why not a 400 f4 and 600 f5.6 for Z? Nikon could well be sardonic and predict correctly they will sell every PF lens they make and swiftly until the sales peak and slow down, but which lens models are likely to sell well into both ecosystem?
I don't see how the Z9 could affect the D500 or D850 market much as they will be in wildly different price classes. Only by bringing the fast sensor read times into these lower price classes would the new cameras become feasible replacements for many users. Note also that a D500 or D850 user would likely have many lenses for F mount and to achieve excellent AF performance on mirrorless they would need to be replaced or augumented with new native lenses. Many people buy second hand superteles such as 200-400/4, 300/2.8 (just this spring a couple of friends of mine bought these second hand for peanuts) and a transition to Z9 and native high end lenses could easily increase costs by up to 5x. A lot of people who enjoy wildlife photography do not have that kind of money to spend. Once the Z lenses are in their second or third generation, there should be a good second hand market and once the stacked sensor technology is in the 1000-2000€ bodies then there can be a mainstream transition.
I didn't answer the poll although I will probably get a Z camera soon. Although I love the shooting experience of PF lenses and the lightweight bag, I still don't find the images as pleasing as those from the conventional teles and so I am gradually moving to the classic teles. I replaced the 300/4 with the 300/2.8 and may do something similar with the 500. Yes, the weight is a pain but I find it more painful to look at the PF images.
I do want silent shutter capability eventually but not at any price.
I'm quite sure the 500 PF, FTZ-coupled to the Z9 is going to be very fast.
This is based on much information/opinions ya'll have posted here and on my personal experiences with AFS (motors) that I've owned in the past (fast and quiet).
So, I'll likely shoot that rig for quite some time before I buy any other PF.
As a wildlife photographer, I always can use more length, but not at a significant size and weight gain. We know mirrorless is a big part of the future. PF telephotos are likely to be so too.
Nikon can keep the D500 and D850 in production for a very long time if they want to, giving them all the time they need to develop Z counterparts. After all, in the dslr world, there are no competitors left, so who will challenge the D500 and D850 with anything other than a mirrorless camera?
The drive behind developing the D6 seemed barebones minimal. What drive can we expect behind a D550 or D880 at all?
But who knows, there could be surprise releases. For me though, spending 10.000 on a F mount 500E is no longer viable. I might never be able to sell it should I want to, other than at a dump price.
Ónly when it performs as well on the Z9 as it does on the D500 and D850, would I reconsider, but as revealed recently, Nikon's legacy AF implementation on the F mount system (to maintain screw-drive compatibility) makes performance of adapted lenses on the Z bodies for fast action uncertain.
I agree on the PF lenses, they have a different character, and there is still room and reason for the classic super telelenses. I would not think of selling the 500PF myself however. A different character does not mean that that lens cannot produce wonderful images and it is so ridiculously easy to take along.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
I don't see how the Z9 could affect the D500 or D850 market much as they will be in wildly different price classes. Only by bringing the fast sensor read times into these lower price classes would the new cameras become feasible replacements for many users. Note also that a D500 or D850 user would likely have many lenses for F mount and to achieve excellent AF performance on mirrorless they would need to be replaced or augumented with new native lenses. Many people buy second hand superteles such as 200-400/4, 300/2.8 (just this spring a couple of friends of mine bought these second hand for peanuts) and a transition to Z9 and native high end lenses could easily increase costs by up to 5x. A lot of people who enjoy wildlife photography do not have that kind of money to spend. Once the Z lenses are in their second or third generation, there should be a good second hand market and once the stacked sensor technology is in the 1000-2000€ bodies then there can be a mainstream transition.
I didn't answer the poll although I will probably get a Z camera soon. Although I love the shooting experience of PF lenses and the lightweight bag, I still don't find the images as pleasing as those from the conventional teles and so I am gradually moving to the classic teles. I replaced the 300/4 with the 300/2.8 and may do something similar with the 500. Yes, the weight is a pain but I find it more painful to look at the PF images.
I do want silent shutter capability eventually but not at any price....Show more →
ChrisMak wrote:
Nikon can keep the D500 and D850 in production for a very long time if they want to, giving them all the time they need to develop Z counterparts. After all, in the dslr world, there are no competitors left, so who will challenge the D500 and D850 with anything other than a mirrorless camera?
The drive behind developing the D6 seemed barebones minimal. What drive can we expect behind a D550 or D880 at all?
But who knows, there could be surprise releases. For me though, spending 10.000 on a F mount 500E is no longer viable. I might never be able to sell it should I want to, other than at a dump price.
Ónly when it performs as well on the Z9 as it does on the D500 and D850, would I reconsider, but as revealed recently, Nikon's legacy AF implementation on the F mount system (to maintain screw-drive compatibility) makes performance of adapted lenses on the Z bodies for fast action uncertain.
I agree on the PF lenses, they have a different character, and there is still room and reason for the classic super telelenses. I would not think of selling the 500PF myself however. A different character does not mean that that lens cannot produce wonderful images and it is so ridiculously easy to take along.
IMHO one of the big questions for 2021 is if there will be an alternative to the D500, either an upgraded DSLR or a stacked-sensor ML camera -from Nikon, Canon or maybe even Sony. No doubt the big three are watching each other because if one of them makes a compelling APS-C action camera, the others cannot afford to stay behind. Canon might have the most incentive to move because their last entry in this area (7D2) was already completely outdated several years ago. I'm sure there is a significant market if they can get the price low enough (like $2000-2500 or so) and this would also have implications for sales of new mirrorless lenses. But with the current cost of stacked-sensor technology etc. manufacturers might opt to concentrate on FF bodies for a bit longer.
Sadly the financial/economic situation in 2021 favors very expensive "1%" cameras and lenses, instead of more affordable enthusiast models ;(
technic wrote:
sadly the financial/economic situation in 2021 favors very expensive "1%" cameras and lenses, instead of more affordable enthusiast models ;(
I have made peace with having to buy a 7000,- Z9 only to shoot it in crop mode 90% of the time. It is ridiculous I know, but these companies have to survive somehow. The large volumes will never return, so they cannot do else than change their approach. The Canon R5 may just be the bottom for a serious action camera for the coming years.
How long have not Sony users speculated on a crop A9 like body. All Sony did for crop was extend its A6xxx line some more, and some more, and launch an A1 to shoot in crop mode.
All I hope, is that the Z9 is so good, that I won't have to think about another body the coming 7 years or so.
Mar 27, 2021 at 11:19 AM
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technic wrote:
IMHO one of the big questions for 2021 is if there will be an alternative to the D500, either an upgraded DSLR or a stacked-sensor ML camera -from Nikon, Canon or maybe even Sony. No doubt the big three are watching each other because if one of them makes a compelling APS-C action camera, the others cannot afford to stay behind. Canon might have the most incentive to move because their last entry in this area (7D2) was already completely outdated several years ago. I'm sure there is a significant market if they can get the price low enough (like $2000-2500 or so) and this would also have implications for sales of new mirrorless lenses. But with the current cost of stacked-sensor technology etc. manufacturers might opt to concentrate on FF bodies for a bit longer.
Sadly the financial/economic situation in 2021 favors very expensive "1%" cameras and lenses, instead of more affordable enthusiast models ;( ...Show more →
I think you are right, technic that Canon is the most likely to develop an APS-C for fast action. All they really need to do is cut the R5 sensor down to 17MP. It will have an even faster sensor scan time then the R5 with less rolling shutter, a better EVF experience, and a better electronic shutter. It will still be able to do 4K video at 60P at least. This sensor should be much cheaper, especially with Canon making it, than the sensor in the Sony A1 or Nikon Z9 cut down to APS-C size. If Canon can charge in the the low $2,000 for this camera it will be hard for Sony or Nikon to build a similar camera that can compete well on price in the same way that the Sony A1 and Z9 don't compete well with the Canon R5 in price. And for this camera, price is really going to matter at this lower price range, IMO. So, I fully expect Canon to make such a camera before long and my guess is Sony and Nikon expect that too. It will be interesting to see what each develops. If I were Nikon, and thank God I am not I would make far more mistakes than they have, I would be looking at how to get a non-stacked high pixel density APS-C sized sensor sped up so that it has decent sensor scan speed. This would basically be looking at ways to modify the D500 sensor to make it have much faster sensor scan speed. I don't think that will be easy but they can take lessons from the Canon. R5 that has quite similar sized pixels. I think the soonest we get this Z90 would be late 2022, but I expect it to be a very popular camera.
ChrisMak wrote:
I have made peace with having to buy a 7000,- Z9 only to shoot it in crop mode 90% of the time. It is ridiculous I know, but these companies have to survive somehow. The large volumes will never return, so they cannot do else than change their approach. The Canon R5 may just be the bottom for a serious action camera for the coming years.
How long have not Sony users speculated on a crop A9 like body. All Sony did for crop was extend its A6xxx line some more, and some more, and launch an A1 to shoot in crop mode.
All I hope, is that the Z9 is so good, that I won't have to think about another body the coming 7 years or so. ...Show more →
You may be right about that, at least for 2021. Personally I'm not in a hurry to buy a new system, also because I'm expecting less photo opportunities this year due to continuing lockdowns and all the mayhem that causes in nature. I will have to take a better look at what I can do with my existing gear and postpone some of the plans for action shots If next year it becomes clear you have to spend big bucks for that kind of performance, so be it.
I expect 1-2 serious action cameras with high pixel density at a lower price level within 2 years or so, probably with APS-C sensor like the rumored Canon R7. The market for $4000+ cameras is too small and this would also limit lens sales. But it is difficult to predict where the economy is going from here and especially smaller companies like Nikon might be restricted financially in what they can do.
Also I have to guess how much room there is in e.g.Canon R5 pricing compared to the R6 - if they can drop the R5 price by $1000 and still make good money (with more volume) that might be an easy option for them when they have something even better available in a year or so. Still my preference is on Nikon because of their PF (and other) lenses, so I hope they can offer something competitive
I think there is still a chance for a D850 update. It is a no brainer that one has been under development but that doesn't ensure it will hit the market. I see no chance of a D500 update.
I also see no chance for a lens like a 600/5.6 PF to be released in F mount. Nikon has promised 12 Z lenses for just 2021. There is no way they are releasing much if any F-mount this year also. Especially something as niche as a 600PF. By 2022 the MILCs will be even more dominant in the market and will make it even less likely a 600PF comes out in F-mount.
arbitrage wrote:
I think there is still a chance for a D850 update. It is a no brainer that one has been under development but that doesn't ensure it will hit the market. I see no chance of a D500 update.
I also see no chance for a lens like a 600/5.6 PF to be released in F mount. Nikon has promised 12 Z lenses for just 2021. There is no way they are releasing much if any F-mount this year also. Especially something as niche as a 600PF. By 2022 the MILCs will be even more dominant in the market and will make it even less likely a 600PF comes out in F-mount....Show more →
If Nikon doesn't plan to offer a Z90 within a year or so (mirrorless version of D500 / APS-C version of Z9 with some of the pro stuff left out probably) they really need a D580 because otherwise there is a big gap in their lineup and people might move to other brands, especially if the price of Z9 (and updated D850) is pretty high.
Regarding the 600PF, I wonder how many of the potential customers for such a niche lens have moved to ML body or plan to move as soon as it is available. Is the customer base really bigger than all those existing "pro"/ wealthy users who still have a nice DSLR and plan to stick to it for now?
I agree a later introduction would make a Z mount version of the 600PF more realistic. An F mount lens can be used on Z mount, other way round is impossible. One might consider that an advantage in pushing customers to Z cameras, but it could also limit sales of a 600PF Z lens if customers for such a lens don't want to move to Z yet.
Shhh, don't tell Nikon. Actually, the Z9 looks interesting regardless and I will probably get it anyway. It's a good time to be a wildlife photographer....
If next year it becomes clear you have to spend big bucks for that kind of performance, so be it.