arbitrage wrote:
I had the A9III on loan for 3 weeks but in the end I didn't end up buying one.
I liked all the QOL improvements that you already know about from the A7RV. I got some cool images using the pre-capture and higher FPS options and can't wait to have pre-capture and maybe 60FPS on an A1II.
But the 24MP killed it for me. I trashed lots of shots that I would have been able to keep if I'd used the A1. The action happened too far away for on a number of occasions and after trying to crop in to a reasonable FOV, the image had just a couple MPs left and I deleted them.
Comparing the few A9III hummer shots I posted, the fountain one is shot very close up so does look very sharp. The one catching bugs is a huge crop and if you go to Flickr you can see it doesn't have much resolution.
Overall, I found the A1 images to be superior. In the past 18-24MP sensors I owned had the ISO advantage and that helped their IQ make up for some of the lack of pixels. But the A9III doesn't have that high ISO advantage over an A1 because of the global shutter and therefore the A1 images are always looking better due to more pixels.
For me, using the A9III solidified my decision that the A1II is the camera for me and I'll save my money for that instead of adding an A9III to the bag. ...Show more →
Thank you for the super-detailed response, @arbitrage. I guess I will also wait. Greatly appreciate your input!
arbitrage wrote:
I had the A9III on loan for 3 weeks but in the end I didn't end up buying one.
I liked all the QOL improvements that you already know about from the A7RV. I got some cool images using the pre-capture and higher FPS options and can't wait to have pre-capture and maybe 60FPS on an A1II.
But the 24MP killed it for me. I trashed lots of shots that I would have been able to keep if I'd used the A1. The action happened too far away for on a number of occasions and after trying to crop in to a reasonable FOV, the image had just a couple MPs left and I deleted them.
Comparing the few A9III hummer shots I posted, the fountain one is shot very close up so does look very sharp. The one catching bugs is a huge crop and if you go to Flickr you can see it doesn't have much resolution.
Overall, I found the A1 images to be superior. In the past 18-24MP sensors I owned had the ISO advantage and that helped their IQ make up for some of the lack of pixels. But the A9III doesn't have that high ISO advantage over an A1 because of the global shutter and therefore the A1 images are always looking better due to more pixels.
For me, using the A9III solidified my decision that the A1II is the camera for me and I'll save my money for that instead of adding an A9III to the bag.
jhapeman wrote:
I would say that I agree with this almost 100%. The main difference is that I kept the A9III I ordered and I still use it about half the time--mainly when the number of pixels won't matter because either the subject is larger or because I know I'll be closer to the action. I also tend to carry two cameras when I'm out--one on the 600GM on a tripod and one slung over the shoulder (now with the 300GM). That gives me the flexibility to switch to whichever is best at the given moment. All of that said, I have no doubt that the moment the A1II is released I'll be selling my A9III and switching to two A1II's. ...Show more →
Thank you guys for your insights.
I guess you save me the money an A9iii would cost.
I’ll likely wait for the A1ii and hope that it can achieve more than 60 FPS.
120 FPS with pre-capture is particularly attractive for me.
But having shot the original A9 a lot after having experienced the A7R and A7Rii with 36, respectively 42 MP, I always felt 24 MP was not quite enough for my photographic interests.
Have either of you considered a switch to Canon? I say this, because while Sony got everyone to start releasing innovative features, they don't seem to be improving it much. Case in point is Sony's problem with "fixing" its focus once it's locked on to something in front of the subject. Apparently, this is still not improving, even with the latest and greatest AF + A.I chip:
Start at 24:09: ?si=ksfp05x0UxuLwvId&t=1449
I've heard the same reported from several others, as well. I tried out the R3 for a few days once and it seemed to be as others have said....far "smarter" at grabbing the desired subject with busy backgrounds / foregrounds. The R1 is supposedly adding some sort of A.I processing on top of quad-pixel AF. Regardless of the resolution, this sounds like Canon is about to take a major lead in actually getting the shot. Any thoughts?
Have either of you considered a switch to Canon? I say this, because while Sony got everyone to start releasing innovative features, they don't seem to be improving it much. Case in point is Sony's problem with "fixing" its focus once it's locked on to something in front of the subject. Apparently, this is still not improving, even with the latest and greatest AF + A.I chip:
?si=ksfp05x0UxuLwvId&t=1443
I've heard the same reported from several others, as well. I tried out the R3 for a few days once and it seemed to be as others have said....far "smarter" at grabbing the desired subject with busy backgrounds / foregrounds. The R1 is supposedly adding some sort of A.I processing on top of quad-pixel AF. Regardless of the resolution, this sounds like Canon is about to take a major lead in actually getting the shot. Any thoughts?...Show more →
I'll jump in here. I have watched that video and honestly that guy just has no idea how to actually configure and use the A9III. He was using it totally wrong--it's not a Canon like his usual camera and you can't configure it the same. That doesn't even get into the myriad of deeper settings in the menu that allows you to very finely customize how well the AI AF works in terms of sticking to a subject vs. jumping around.
All of the reputable reviews I've seen clearly show that the A1 still outperforms anything from Sony or Nikon when it comes to tracking moving objects. The Nikon Z9/Z8 are now very similar in capabilities after several firmware updates, but we're talking about competing with a camera that was released in 2021. I don't expect to see Sony do anything to "upgrade" the old A1 with a totally new AI system out there that will no doubt be released in its successor.
Having fiddled with the Canon and Sony cameras I think the approach they both take is more "generic" in terms of the AF settings and really everything in general. That means it will perform well across the most common denominator of situations that that average person runs into. Sony makes their cameras incredibly configurable and the downside of that is if you aren't comfortable really delving in and learning you can get less than ideal results by configuring things incorrectly or less than optimally. The video you link is a prime example of that.
As for the R1...well all we have right now is just smoke and mirrors so I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath for anything there. The whole quad pixel AF is also just smoke and mirrors rumors now as well. All of this also skims over the fact that the consensus rumor is that the R1 will still be stuck back at 24mpx.
I'm not sure about your claim on innovative features either. They are the first of the majors to have full raw precapture, the first with a global shutter sensor, the first with true sustained 120fps raw shooting. Those are not minor innovations at all. I expect we'll see something new and special in the A1 as well. If they had nothing up their sleeves we would have seen an updated A1 announced with the A9III. What it will be remains to be seen, but I do truly believe they will have something--so far every time there's been an update to a flagship it's come with some nifty new stuff.
jhapeman wrote:
I'll jump in here. I have watched that video and honestly that guy just has no idea how to actually configure and use the A9III. He was using it totally wrong--it's not a Canon like his usual camera and you can't configure it the same. That doesn't even get into the myriad of deeper settings in the menu that allows you to very finely customize how well the AI AF works in terms of sticking to a subject vs. jumping around.
All of the reputable reviews I've seen clearly show that the A1 still outperforms anything from Sony or Nikon when it comes to tracking moving objects. The Nikon Z9/Z8 are now very similar in capabilities after several firmware updates, but we're talking about competing with a camera that was released in 2021. I don't expect to see Sony do anything to "upgrade" the old A1 with a totally new AI system out there that will no doubt be released in its successor.
Having fiddled with the Canon and Sony cameras I think the approach they both take is more "generic" in terms of the AF settings and really everything in general. That means it will perform well across the most common denominator of situations that that average person runs into. Sony makes their cameras incredibly configurable and the downside of that is if you aren't comfortable really delving in and learning you can get less than ideal results by configuring things incorrectly or less than optimally. The video you link is a prime example of that.
As for the R1...well all we have right now is just smoke and mirrors so I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath for anything there. The whole quad pixel AF is also just smoke and mirrors rumors now as well. All of this also skims over the fact that the consensus rumor is that the R1 will still be stuck back at 24mpx.
I'm not sure about your claim on innovative features either. They are the first of the majors to have full raw precapture, the first with a global shutter sensor, the first with true sustained 120fps raw shooting. Those are not minor innovations at all. I expect we'll see something new and special in the A1 as well. If they had nothing up their sleeves we would have seen an updated A1 announced with the A9III. What it will be remains to be seen, but I do truly believe they will have something--so far every time there's been an update to a flagship it's come with some nifty new stuff. ...Show more →
Moving subjects, I agree, according to pretty much all reviews I've seen, the A1 is top dog. We're talking about the specific situation of the camera acquiring the subject in busy scenes, not a single bird flying across a blue sky. Very different scenario. I have a lot of trouble getting my A1 to grab onto birds in trees, and even when it does, it's often not focusing on the eye most of the time, rather the general shape of the bird (and that's only because I manually put the small tracking box over it and turned AF ON). My A7RV does FAR better at acquiring the bird, and that has the new A.I chip, which is great to see as it clearly makes a difference. This has me excited for the future A1mk2, but at the same time, we have the chip in their latest camera, and it sounds like it's having the same problems I've had with my last several Sony cameras when it comes to birds, specifically.
trippalhealick wrote:
Moving subjects, I agree, according to pretty much all reviews I've seen, the A1 is top dog. We're talking about the specific situation of the camera acquiring the subject in busy scenes, not a single bird flying across a blue sky. Very different scenario. I have a lot of trouble getting my A1 to grab onto birds in trees, and even when it does, it's often not focusing on the eye most of the time, rather the general shape of the bird (and that's only because I manually put the small tracking box over it and turned AF ON). My A7RV does FAR better at acquiring the bird, and that has the new A.I chip, which is great to see as it clearly makes a difference. This has me excited for the future A1mk2, but at the same time, we have the chip in their latest camera, and it sounds like it's having the same problems I've had with my last several Sony cameras when it comes to birds, specifically. ...Show more →
That Wild Alaska youtube video stated at the end "this will improve with firmware updates", but I have absolutely zero faith in Sony suddenly changing their ways in this regard. They will just sell you another camera.
trippalhealick wrote:
Moving subjects, I agree, according to pretty much all reviews I've seen, the A1 is top dog. We're talking about the specific situation of the camera acquiring the subject in busy scenes, not a single bird flying across a blue sky. Very different scenario. I have a lot of trouble getting my A1 to grab onto birds in trees, and even when it does, it's often not focusing on the eye most of the time, rather the general shape of the bird (and that's only because I manually put the small tracking box over it and turned AF ON). My A7RV does FAR better at acquiring the bird, and that has the new A.I chip, which is great to see as it clearly makes a difference. This has me excited for the future A1mk2, but at the same time, we have the chip in their latest camera, and it sounds like it's having the same problems I've had with my last several Sony cameras when it comes to birds, specifically. ...Show more →
Again, the video is terrible and he has no idea what he's talking about. All of the Sony cameras with the new AI system EXCEL at finding the subject in a busy scene--IF you set it right. He had it on bird and was surprised it wasn't finding animals? There's literally a dedicated animal mode and/or a bird-animal combined mode, both of which do an outstanding job.
I've used the A7RV and A9III extensively, and the system is the same--except it works even better on the A9III than it does on the A7RV.
The A1 has a four-year-old subject recognition system. When it came out nothing could come close to it. Yes, it's long in the tooth, but if you understand the limitations and how to work around them it's a non-issue. I take tens of thousands of fabulous shots with my A1 every year and 99% of them are small birds in trees. You just have to master how to get the most out of the camera. In particular, knowing how to swap between spot and zone AF rapidly to acquire subjects.
With the A9III I can forget a lot of those skills because the AI AF is just that good.
jhapeman wrote:
Again, the video is terrible and he has no idea what he's talking about. All of the Sony cameras with the new AI system EXCEL at finding the subject in a busy scene--IF you set it right. He had it on bird and was surprised it wasn't finding animals? There's literally a dedicated animal mode and/or a bird-animal combined mode, both of which do an outstanding job.
I've used the A7RV and A9III extensively, and the system is the same--except it works even better on the A9III than it does on the A7RV.
The A1 has a four-year-old subject recognition system. When it came out nothing could come close to it. Yes, it's long in the tooth, but if you understand the limitations and how to work around them it's a non-issue. I take tens of thousands of fabulous shots with my A1 every year and 99% of them are small birds in trees. You just have to master how to get the most out of the camera. In particular, knowing how to swap between spot and zone AF rapidly to acquire subjects.
With the A9III I can forget a lot of those skills because the AI AF is just that good. ...Show more →
You are mistaken about the tracking subject he used. If you skip to the 26 minute mark, you can see he's clearly using animal for the bears behind brush. That's not a great apples to apples comparison to a bird on a limb, as the bears weren't really looking toward him most of the time, but you're discrediting the guy, and I've not seen any reason to disbelieve him. I've watched plenty of his videos, and I can attest to my experiences being the same as his with every Sony camera i've used (a9, a9mk2, a1, a7r3, 4, 5, etc). What setting can be changed on this camera to make it find birds in brush more effectively?
trippalhealick wrote:
You are mistaken about the tracking subject he used. If you skip to the 26 minute mark, you can see he's clearly using animal for the bears behind brush. That's not a great apples to apples comparison to a bird on a limb, as the bears weren't really looking toward him most of the time, but you're discrediting the guy, and I've not seen any reason to disbelieve him. I've watched plenty of his videos, and I can attest to my experiences being the same as his with every Sony camera i've used (a9, a9mk2, a1, a7r3, 4, 5, etc). What setting can be changed on this camera to make it find birds in brush more effectively?
Well for starters it looks like he's using wide vs. zone; I'd never suggest use wide mode when you have a ton of brush or other things that might interfere with the focus. That's just the wrong way to use the focus zones. Then we have no idea what the put the sensitivity on. There are a TON of buried settings in the new system--I assume you've messed with some of them? You can completely change how it handles things that come in the foreground, how tightly it locks on a subject after it's acquired it, etc.
He just hasn't used the system enough to understand how to properly use it.
jhapeman wrote:
Well for starters it looks like he's using wide vs. zone; I'd never suggest use wide mode when you have a ton of brush or other things that might interfere with the focus. That's just the wrong way to use the focus zones. Then we have no idea what the put the sensitivity on. There are a TON of buried settings in the new system--I assume you've messed with some of them? You can completely change how it handles things that come in the foreground, how tightly it locks on a subject after it's acquired it, etc.
He just hasn't used the system enough to understand how to properly use it. ...Show more →
I've used the Canon R3, as well as the A1 and that A7RV with the A.I chip, and I can tell you that the Canon does better. What you're calling "generic" settings, I'd call a more simplified approach to getting the results most users would like to get, without requiring a lot of manual intervention. Also, what you're calling "knowing how to use the camera" is knowing it's limitations and having to manually work around them. I can tell you that the Canon R3 does a lot better job grabbing onto birds in brush than my Sony A1 does. The A7RV, it would likely be a toss-up since Sony added the AI chip, but then you're working with a non-stacked sensor, which brings the limitations of 10fps if you want to avoid rolling shutter or just shoot faster than 10fps. Sony couldn't even be bothered to turn on Subject Recognition on the A9III out the box. (Start at 8:11: ?si=DlsGM2TQXLmzZQ6E&t=491).
To me, Canon is clearly more focused on end results and user experience, and that's on top of the fact their AF system seems to be smarter. And that's before they're adding quad-pixel AF and AI, which are both reported coming in the R1. Even if I thought having to go into a menu system and tweak settings to somehow improve the AF was actually some sort of advantage, there is no setting on the a7RV, nor the A1, and I'd bet money nor the a9III that will improve Sony's cameras' subject recognition.
trippalhealick wrote:
I've used the Canon R3, as well as the A1 and that A7RV with the A.I chip, and I can tell you that the Canon does better. What you're calling "generic" settings, I'd call a more simplified approach to getting the results most users would like to get, without requiring a lot of manual intervention. Also, what you're calling "knowing how to use the camera" is knowing it's limitations and having to manually work around them. I can tell you that the Canon R3 does a lot better job grabbing onto birds in brush than my Sony A1 does. The A7RV, it would likely be a toss-up since Sony added the AI chip, but then you're working with a non-stacked sensor, which brings the limitations of 10fps if you want to avoid rolling shutter or just shoot faster than 10fps. Sony couldn't even be bothered to turn on Subject Recognition on the A9III out the box. (Start at 8:11: ?si=DlsGM2TQXLmzZQ6E&t=491).
To me, Canon is clearly more focused on end results and user experience, and that's on top of the fact their AF system seems to be smarter. And that's before they're adding quad-pixel AF and AI, which are both reported coming in the R1. Even if I thought having to go into a menu system and tweak settings to somehow improve the AF was actually some sort of advantage, there is no setting on the a7RV, nor the A1, and I'd bet money nor the a9III that will improve Sony's cameras' subject recognition.
You're constantly on here kvetching about the Sony's recently. Either you're a troll, or you should just sell your Sony gear and buy a Canon. No it's not about limitations. It's 100% about knowing how to use your gear. I'd 100% prefer gear that lets me configure it to match my conditions rather than a generic one size fits all approach.
As for not turning on subject recognition, all I can say is why would they? Unless they are mind readers they have absolutely NO idea how you are going to use your camera and what subjects you would want it to recognize.
You are literally the only person I've seen on this forum call the Canon AF system "smarter" so that's clearly just your opinion, and again, since you feel so strongly, just buy the Canon and stop trolling here.
trippalhealick wrote:
there is no setting on the a7RV, nor the A1, and I'd bet money nor the a9III that will improve Sony's cameras' subject recognition.
Actually, I may be mistaken on this. There is the "Recognition Sensitivity" setting under subject recognition, on the a7RV. Let me test this. I'm assuming they mean that it makes the recognition more likely to grab a BIRD and not a LIMB. lol
jhapeman wrote:
You're constantly on here kvetching about the Sony's recently. Either you're a troll, or you should just sell your Sony gear and buy a Canon. No it's not about limitations. It's 100% about knowing how to use your gear. I'd 100% prefer gear that lets me configure it to match my conditions rather than a generic one size fits all approach.
As for not turning on subject recognition, all I can say is why would they? Unless they are mind readers they have absolutely NO idea how you are going to use your camera and what subjects you would want it to recognize.
You are literally the only person I've seen on this forum call the Canon AF system "smarter" so that's clearly just your opinion, and again, since you feel so strongly, just buy the Canon and stop trolling here. ...Show more →
I asked a question of other Sony shooters that have tried cameras I haven't had a chance to use, to get an idea if the a9III shows promise of Sony improving their systems, or if we're just getting a camera that can shoot faster. I've not said anything troll-like. Just a consumer with my eyes open, that's all. If you've not heard anything about Canon's AF catching up with Sony, you might want to absorb more content on the matter, as I've certainly read/watched a lot, and I've seen this reported multiple times from a wide variety of shooters.
Have either of you considered a switch to Canon? I say this, because while Sony got everyone to start releasing innovative features, they don't seem to be improving it much. Case in point is Sony's problem with "fixing" its focus once it's locked on to something in front of the subject. Apparently, this is still not improving, even with the latest and greatest AF + A.I chip:
Start at 24:09: ?si=ksfp05x0UxuLwvId&t=1449
I've heard the same reported from several others, as well. I tried out the R3 for a few days once and it seemed to be as others have said....far "smarter" at grabbing the desired subject with busy backgrounds / foregrounds. The R1 is supposedly adding some sort of A.I processing on top of quad-pixel AF. Regardless of the resolution, this sounds like Canon is about to take a major lead in actually getting the shot. Any thoughts?...Show more →
I owned R5 for 7 months or so and have had the R3 on loan a couple times from CPS.
I've always said that Canon had the best subject recognition database and I still think it does even after shooting the A7RV and the A9III with the updated AI chip.
It has been a while since I've used the R3 or R5 so it is sometimes hard for me to really remember.
I watched that AF section of the video you linked. That was some tough situation. I would really have liked for him to switch over to the R5 or R3 and show how much better it would do in that scenario. I'm not certain it would do a lot better without some help like he had to give the A9III.
He was shooting in Wide which is certainly the totally incorrect AF Area to use for that type of setting. He was using a 2nd AF mode (looked like maybe L Flex Spot) to hone in when Wide was near focusing. I think if he'd used Expand Flex Spot with Tracking ON (he had tracking off it looks like as I never saw the tracking square with vertical lines come up once) it would have held the bear for a lot of that but maybe not when all we saw was the bear's butt staring at us
One thing I did find with the A9III which I felt was a regression from the A1 (and previous A9 series) is that it did have a higher tendency when it wasn't detecting a subject (even for just a brief moment as the bird turned away) where it really seemed to want to prioritize the nearest thing in the focus area and I had it jumping on near grass way more than the A1 et al. I find with A1 and previous cameras that the AF prioritized centre of the frame (or centre of the AF area) and would just keep dancing the squares on the subject until it could ID it again as long as I keep the subject relatively centred in the frame.
I think the A9III has improved subject detection of birds in clutter a bit over the A1 but I wasn't blown away by it. You still couldn't just throw the camera in Wide, aim it at a bird in a bunch of sticks and have it detect the bird reliably unless the bird was positioned in a perfect sideways field guide pose. The Canon system is better at doing that for sure.
But no, I have no interest at switching back to Canon. The A1 still does many things better than the R5/R3 for my type of shooting. Especially for bird acquisition during BIF against complicated backgrounds. Shooting swallows against distracting reed/tree backgrounds is still night and day how much better A1 is over R3/R5 or Z8/Z9.
I'd love to have the subject recognition improve on the A1 to R5 level but really I don't shoot that type of stuff. I really only take bird portraits if they are against clean backgrounds. Unless I'm really bored or it is the only bird I've found all day, I won't be aiming at a bird sitting in a bunch of messy branches anyways. And if I do I have my custom key set to Small Flex Spot with Tracking and can nail the eye every time so it doesn't matter much to me.
One last thing...I found a big improvement on the A9III was the ability to decide if you wanted body/head/eye or just head/eye or just eye. This was a huge benefit to shoot large BIF like GBH close up if you set it to head/eye or just eye it really ignored the near wing which all the other cameras like to grab instead of the head/eye. That was a great improvement.
I owned R5 for 7 months or so and have had the R3 on loan a couple times from CPS.
I've always said that Canon had the best subject recognition database and I still think it does even after shooting the A7RV and the A9III with the updated AI chip.
@arbitrage The A7RV has those same priority of body parts controls as the A9III, and I just went outside after adjusting the "Subject Recognition" to the max, and I have to say, it did FAR better than any previous Sony camera I've shot with, at least in subject recognition in a visually busy environment. It was already better than the Sony cameras I've used before, but it actually surprised me at just how good it did. Here is a small gallery of shots I just got after adjusting the recognition sensitivity. Not exactly keepers, but these are my best examples of how well it got past the obstructions to grab the subject.
arbitrage wrote:
He was shooting in Wide which is certainly the totally incorrect AF Area to use for that type of setting. He was using a 2nd AF mode (looked like maybe L Flex Spot) to hone in when Wide was near focusing. I think if he'd used Expand Flex Spot with Tracking ON (he had tracking off it looks like as I never saw the tracking square with vertical lines come up once) it would have held the bear for a lot of that but maybe not when all we saw was the bear's butt staring at us
The one damn small feature I wanted (aside from animal eye AF in video) for the A1 was full-time DMF. If I had this one simple feature, I wouldn't have any reason to consider switching. lol
trippalhealick wrote:
The one damn small feature I wanted (aside from animal eye AF in video) for the A1 was full-time DMF. If I had this one simple feature, I wouldn't have any reason to consider switching. lol
I'm lucky to have full time DMF on my two main lenses 400GM and 600GM because it is built into the lens with the dedicated switch. But I do sorely miss it when using my 100-400 and was so happy to have it with the A9III (and A7RV). Sony should easily be able to give the A1 that feature now that it is on the same base FW as the newer bodies...but they probably won't...because they need me to buy an A1II.
