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Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)

  
 
zhangyue
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


rico wrote:
Like most others in this thread I'm a Leica fan and have many $1K's sunk into the brand. The SL, however, makes no sense at all to me as a product line. See postings above mine for numerous good reasons. This new 'cron-SL 28 is competing with a host of top-grade glass in this FL from many vendorsóincluding Leica itself! I own the Elmarit-M ASPH, for example. If speed is an issue then I switch over to the Nikkor 28/1.4E which is a magnificent optic with quite silent AF. I believe the Otus is strongly recommended if one has a
...Show more

28E, 105E and 58G are Crown Jewels in Nikon line. They make me bought a Z6 back.

OTUS is a 1400g MANUAL LENS

Haha, I don't buy many stuff such as R5 or A1 but I don't think those are make no sense



Feb 23, 2021 at 01:36 AM
Arka
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)



zhangyue wrote:
I don't know, I regularly browse Leica S magazine and saw many fashion pros used it in past few years. A set of APO AF Leica glasses certainly won't cheap, no deny size is a negative but really nothing out of line at 700g a piece. We don't have a APO lens set like this before. The plan happen a few years back. I agree it seems in just a few years, more and more great performer show up make them less convincing. But still, Leica is competing at different market, you can't really judge them traditionally. I for one
...Show more

It should surprise exactly no one that the Leica S magazine would feature Leica "fashion pros." I'd be curious to know how many such fashion pros there actually are. Does Profoto even manufacture TTL-compatible Leica triggers for their latest lights? Does Godox? Why or why not?

The absence of such triggers would be a deal breaker for the overwhelming majority of fashion photographers I would think.

SL2 is actually the most enjoyable MILC camera I ever used, bar none. The AF is fast and accurate, even not the top, it really meets my need. IBIS is better than any Nikon and Sony I ever used. Then IQ and ergo are just top top IMHO. High resolution mode is really useable for landscape. M and S alone with AF L glasses support are all top notch as good as you can expect. Everyone is different, that is why you guys brought A1/A9/A7Rx really doesn't do anything much for me personally. I know R5 and Z7x are both top...Show more

I respect your experience but it is different from mine. To me the camera fit well in the hand, but was ponderous over long periods and had questionable autofocus - another deal breaker for me. It's one thing to use an M (which has no autofocus at all) knowing that you're on your own with respect to nailing focus. It's quite another to trust the similarly priced SL's allegedly first-rate AF only to realize later that a quarter of your images are soft.

As for landscape work, weight is really important to any serious back-country photography endeavor. The idea of packing a multi-day backpack with a 2lb camera body with 10-12lbs of zoom and prime lenses (all of which cost upwards of $25,000) is ludicrous when I can just as easily pack a total of 5-6lbs of Sony gear costing less than $12,000 while offering even better resolution. I can use the weight savings for more food, or just use less energy schlepping less gear miles and miles into the wilderness. Now if you're just shooting the Tunnel View at Yosemite or helicoptering in on some luxury tour, maybe the SL is a good fit for landscape work. Heck, it might even impress some of the people on tour with you. But the SL enjoys no advantage in that situation over Sony, Canon, or Nikon competitors.

And as you seem to acknowledge, the SL system is pretty useless for birds or sports. So my earlier point about very narrow use cases stands. If the ergos are good enough that you can ignore lack of capability, great - maybe the lack of capability isn't important to you. But how many buyers are out there looking to spend twice as much on a camera system laden with middling technology and so much excess bulk? I don't know - maybe enough to justify Leica continuing to build for the system... time will tell.

I am subjective on gear I bought but I am also quite objective on how others think about Leica. So, I don't mind criticizing them. As long as there are people like me can appreciate certain thing Leica offer, they will continue deliver. Until, it shows that really no more enough customers to support their business model, they will fail. Market is always fair. Peoples' opinion are not.

I would love to see what the market size is for the SL, as well as the gross and net profit figures. What is Leica's expectation for system sales? Are they looking to get to a certain installed base? How many of these $5000, 700g f/2 Summicrons does Leica plan to sell? How much are they relying on Panasonic to keep the system alive and relevant? I could be way off base - the market for the SL might be huge and I may just not understand the business proposition at all. But again, the lack of compatible third party flash triggers for Leica SL cameras suggests to me that the market is pretty small (and so had better be highly profitable). I mean, Profoto makes Connect wireless triggers for Olympus but not Leica!

We all soon find out. Who knows, what will happen in the future. I have a feeling that future cameras are become more and more capable like R5 and A1, it nevertheless makes people less care about tech spec of camera. Ultimately, enjoy using it seems more important, at least for me.

Some people will care less and less about camera specs. Some people, like M customers, want to escape the specification treadmill and get something simple. But the SL is supposed to take the mirrorless heavyweights on, not sit above the fray as a non-tech, high-quality solution for luddites looking to escape the perils of automation! The SL is supposed to go toe-to-toe with Sony, Canon, and Nikon on the technology front. Instead lags behind all of them at more than twice the price. For Leica's M cameras, such engineered backwardness is an asset. For the SL, I don't think it is.




Feb 23, 2021 at 02:41 AM
rscheffler
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


I seem to recall reading some years back that Leica wanted to grow to 1% of the photography hardware market.

The SL line of cameras and lenses addresses the mainstream interchangeable lens market and provides them with a full product offering. It's something to offer potential customers who otherwise would not be interested in the much more niche M and S systems. Or M or S customers looking to augment one of those while remaining within the Leica ecosystem.

Rather than suggesting a potential customer look at another brand to fill such a need, at least this way Leica can offer their own solution, which to me makes complete sense.

Of course this does not ensure such potential customers will be guaranteed buyers due to various reasons, including the points you (Arka) have stated. But Leica would seem to believe they can generate enough revenue from SL to justify its development.

I'd guess most here understand that Leica's relationship with Panasonic is both fortunate and unfortunate. Fortunate in that it provides access to technology and a base for product customization that otherwise might be difficult for them to develop in-house for various reasons. Unfortunate in that Panasonic's technology is not competitive with market leaders in at least one major aspect: AF follow-focus capability due to their seemingly stubborn dedication to DFD contrast-detect AF, rather than PDAF technology.

IMO it again boils down to a very familiar point: Leica trails the competition in some on-paper specifications. Does this matter? Does it sufficiently detract from other (often intangible, highly subjective) things they have done exceptionally well? Maybe, maybe not. This can also be said for every system. I mean, I should know as a Canon user for the past 20+ years, right? I'm surprised I was able to create any usable images whatsoever in the last ~10 years given how pathetically terrible their sensor technology was compared to the competition, not to mention lagging in the MP race, or their questionable DSLR AF performance... The funny thing is, when I tried some of the competition, I ran into a lot of little 'gotchas' that never appeared in the marketing materials and consequently soured the experience for me.

From my own perspective, not having used the SL system other than brief demos, I absolutely love the look I see from SL glass, particularly the Summicron primes. Despite being aware of the system's potential weaknesses and that it probably wouldn't address all of my requirements, I would still love to give it a try (in this respect, it's very similar to the initial hurdle I felt the M system presented). Maybe it would work for me. Maybe I could work around its weaknesses. Maybe not. But it's the only way I'd know, which again is similar to my experience with the M system. Leica is betting there are likely others with similar feelings, but with deeper pockets than me.



Feb 23, 2021 at 07:51 AM
dog rocket
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Iíve had 3 Sony mirrorless, 2 Nikon mirrorless and now 1 Leica mirrorless. If I had specific requirements in a camera other than what I do I would probably not have the Leica. If AF was my biggest priority, I would probably not have mirrorless at all. In fact, my most specific requirement is IQ and thatís one of the reasons I have the Leica SL2. My other biggest requirement is adapting lenses which all of these cameras can do.

Quality, UI and IQ matter to me most. I shoot for enjoyment and I shoot a lot of people, models, landscape. I hated skin tones on Sony. Hated the form factor and UI. Nikon was better in all those respects but skin tones on the Leica are absolutely incredible to me and finally require no fiddling in post.

All you guys who quoted me: have you owned all these cameras are are you shooting from the hip? Lol

Now that Sony has a $6.5K camera (10% more than Leica SL2) whatís the next complaint? I have just one question: whatís the shelf life of steak sauce these days? I hope to have this SL2 for 10 years.

Sony might be shooting holograms by then but just about any camera has enough tech for me these days. I just wanna get all that out of the way and shoot high resolution, high IQ, 2D images!



Feb 23, 2021 at 08:25 AM
Rob L
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


I don't do this for a living, just a hobby. But on the SL2, I really enjoy and am willing to pay for - the way the battery is inserted and removed, the diopter adjustment, the viewfinder, which while being the same panel as Sony and others is miles better because of the optics behind it, (and no nose grease on the screen!) the weather sealing, the simplicity and lack of buttons everywhere, the lack of flimsy plastic pieces like the battery doors and the diopter adjustment on most other cameras, the sound and feel of the shutter, the stability that is a function of the weight, the room for my right hand fingers, the fact that this is the best setup for M mount glass or film era SLR lenses, which other mirrorless cameras degrade substantially.
For the lenses, I like that the Summicrons are solid and metal and the focus ring doesn't make that scraping plastic sound. These SL Summicron lenses based on my testing at infinity overlooking my town, really are in another league and I've had all of the best E (and M) mount glass. I can be happy with a 2 or 3 lens kit and if I need a zoom, ultra wide, telephoto, fast aperture or cheap, there is Sigma and Panasonic. If I want small and light there is Sigma I Series, CV M mount etc.
The SL Summicrons are not that big! Heavy yes. Same filter size as GM 24 and 1 cm (3/8"). longer. 5mm (3/16") longer than GM 35.



Feb 23, 2021 at 11:10 AM
rico
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


rscheffler wrote:
I'd guess most here understand that Leica's relationship with Panasonic is both fortunate and unfortunate. Fortunate in that it provides access to technology and a base for product customization that otherwise might be difficult for them to develop in-house for various reasons. Unfortunate in that Panasonic's technology is not competitive with market leaders in at least one major aspect: AF follow-focus capability due to their seemingly stubborn dedication to DFD contrast-detect AF, rather than PDAF technology.

DFD is a debacle that ruins the Lumix line, and takes Leica with it. Why Panasonic stays this course is a mystery: it's even more quixotic than Fujifilm and their non-Bayer sensors. I'm a big fan of Panasonic with Lumix P&S, four Toughbook laptops, cordless phones, and a rice cooker but DFD is an absolute no-go with me. As for Leica product rationale, I have no doubt that SL makes sense to themóand maybe even money. When I go the Leica digital route, the models that appeal to me are the Q, CL, and M. Yes, they are quirky, but in that spirited Leica way. SL is just a charmless techno wannabe. Just my opinion.



Feb 23, 2021 at 12:10 PM
zhangyue
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Arka wrote:
It should surprise exactly no one that the Leica S magazine would feature Leica "fashion pros." I'd be curious to know how many such fashion pros there actually are. Does Profoto even manufacture TTL-compatible Leica triggers for their latest lights? Does Godox? Why or why not?

The absence of such triggers would be a deal breaker for the overwhelming majority of fashion photographers I would think.



I respect your experience but it is different from mine. To me the camera fit well in the hand, but was ponderous over long periods and had questionable autofocus - another deal
...Show more

I think Leica themselves offer TTL trigger and flash. and maybe many still use manual setting for flash. (or forced to do so as Leica customers) I really don't know but I agree with you that Leica is sloppy here.

SL2 is about 900g, similar spec R5, Z7II and a74 are around 650~740g. So we are talking about 200~300g difference. and they build better with high density so the size difference is even less. If you do landscape and care size, you have option to get M glass cover from 16mm to 90mm. The total weight will be less than most if not all. Then there is awesome Panasonic and Sigma prime and zoom if you want AF. High resolution file give me better IQ than any FF camera out there. Treat it as 3 stop ND filter if you want with double Dynamic range in additional pixel count. I don't do multi-day hiking but I do hike regularly in 5~15mile during national park visit. SL2 doesn't bother me more than Z7 or A7Rx. (SL2 might give advantage in total weight if I use M glasses given other don't play M glass as well) If that become an issue in the future, I will pick a different camera but it is not yet.

If I shoot bird or sports, I am sure I will get a R5 or A1 and a long glass or two. I can afford them since I buy Leica Then I still want use SL2 at daily base. I won't persuade you or others that SL2 can do manual focus fine with either peaking or eyeball with M glasses, I constantly see people complain about manual focus, not my writing or success results matter to you or any others in this regard. I am happy, that is all it matters.

If Leica do toe to toe with Sony, Canon or Nikon, they will be gone by now, many did. When you use traditional on paper spec judge camera, you should not be a Leica customer, especially their MILC. Obviously you are not SL customer

I personally never a fan of native SL glasses, especially their huge zoom. In this forum, I expressed my opinion about it before, I stand behind my comments. Then I have to say it has something to do with my S experience in term of AF glasses and also from my long term experience with Leica, state of art AF require technology above Leica's pay grade. However, given I never need fancy AF for my photography I really don't mind a APO set of 35/75, or 28/50/90 if:
They have real focus ring; They sell cheaper at 3.5K a piece; I don't have so many stuffs around; or SL is my only system.

None of above happened, so I didn't buy them. A backpack from Walmart has more pockets then a boutique brand one if pockets count is the only reference point but there is still demand for those luxury ones. There is market for this. No matter how we look at, Leica is a luxury brand and will always be.



Feb 23, 2021 at 12:31 PM
Rob L
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


A real focus ring will never happen on today's auto focus designs because there is no helicoid and focusing is achieved by moving separate and small focus groups that are essentially mounted on rails. Those days are gone, but what you do get is fast focusing. The SL Simmicrons, after the firmware update have a very nice manual focus action - linear and with a selectable throw of 90, 120, and 360 degrees I think.


Feb 23, 2021 at 01:02 PM
SlowDriver
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


zhangyue wrote:
SL2 is about 900g, similar spec R5, Z7II and a74 are around 650~740g. So we are talking about 200~300g difference.


200-300g is significant for most people though... the R5 is 738g, about 200g lighter than the SL and the R5 has lighter OEM lenses available as well whereas the lightest Leica lens is 700g...

I carried the SL everywhere for about 2-3 years and then I gave up... It is simply not a carry everywhere camera...

I would be first in line for a 650-750g FF L-mount body. Unfortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon though...



Feb 23, 2021 at 03:29 PM
zhangyue
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


I donít disagree.

I think Leica made a wrong turn for L Mount in product Definition stage. They seems aim for pro who care less about size and weight but durability, IQ and AF. It turn out the industry move much faster than they can keep up with. They might be right as there is M for other usage. But for me, I would prefer a CL sized SL offer the same hardware spec.

The initial zoom and 50lux size and weight are really shocking me actually. But sigma and canonikony new intro lenses for mirrorless made them look less offensive. But new Sony GM and sigma i along with Voigtlander manual glass change the tune again.

I used SL2 mainly for M glasses during travel. For non travel day out, I put any lenses from OTUS to S glasses on them for fun depend on mood. Mostly just work on one prime lens at a time. I donít mind itís size and weight in this case, even I do, none of other option offer better integration and ergo to set the camera up as simple as it.

If I go out to buy a new camera today, SL2 is still my choice. Just offer a perspective may differ to others.

SlowDriver wrote:
200-300g is significant for most people though... the R5 is 738g, about 200g lighter than the SL and the R5 has lighter OEM lenses available as well whereas the lightest Leica lens is 700g...

I carried the SL everywhere for about 2-3 years and then I gave up... It is simply not a carry everywhere camera...

I would be first in line for a 650-750g FF L-mount body. Unfortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon though...




Feb 23, 2021 at 03:57 PM
 


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Arka
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


zhangyue wrote:
SL2 is about 900g, similar spec R5, Z7II and a74 are around 650~740g. So we are talking about 200~300g difference. and they build better with high density so the size difference is even less. If you do landscape and care size, you have option to get M glass cover from 16mm to 90mm.


But I have that option on Sony cameras too (albeit with certain sacrifices in capability). I actually use my Leica lenses on Sony cameras and have enjoyed some success.

The total weight will be less than most if not all. Then there is awesome Panasonic and Sigma prime and zoom if you want AF.

Here again, the number of third-party lens options isn't really a Leica advantage - its competitors do just as well if not better in the third party lens department - a wide variety of Sigma options, and even some fast and light Tamron zooms that are quite excellent.

High resolution file give me better IQ than any FF camera out there. Treat it as 3 stop ND filter if you want with double Dynamic range in additional pixel count.

I'm hard pressed to see any meaningful difference between 60MP images shot on GM glass and the 24MP or 47MP DNG files I shot on SL and SL2's that I rented/borrowed for weekend shoots, but I recognize that can be pretty subjective.

I don't do multi-day hiking but I do hike regularly in 5~15mile during national park visit. SL2 doesn't bother me more than Z7 or A7Rx. (SL2 might give advantage in total weight if I use M glasses given other don't play M glass as well) If that become an issue in the future, I will pick a different camera but it is not yet.

Most of my issues with the SL system are directed at the lenses, which are equal parts ponderous, dim, and expensive. $5000 and 700g for an f/2 wide angle prime is, quite frankly, silly. I was more than happy to drop $4000 on a <300g 35mm f/1.4 Summilux - a lens I still have and love. I'll be damned if I do the same for a 35mm 'cron that weighs twice as much and has shitty AF performance on it's dedicated camera body. And the zooms are even more absurd. $5500 or $7000 for variable aperture zoom lenses that weigh as much as four bricks? No way.

But on this point, I think we are agreed.

If I shoot bird or sports, I am sure I will get a R5 or A1 and a long glass or two. I can afford them since I buy Leica Then I still want use SL2 at daily base. I won't persuade you or others that SL2 can do manual focus fine with either peaking or eyeball with M glasses, I constantly see people complain about manual focus, not my writing or success results matter to you or any others in this regard. I am happy, that is all it matters.

I don't see much point in getting an SL for manual focus on M lenses. You can use an M camera for that and have more fun doing it. Or you could use focus-peaking on any of the new Sony, Canon, or Nikon MILCs.

If Leica do toe to toe with Sony, Canon or Nikon, they will be gone by now, many did. When you use traditional on paper spec judge camera, you should not be a Leica customer, especially their MILC. Obviously you are not SL customer

No I'll never be an SL customer, though I will own an M camera again someday. That's a format I miss, and I'm actually keeping all my lenses for when that day happens.

None of above happened, so I didn't buy them. A backpack from Walmart has more pockets then a boutique brand one if pockets count is the only reference point but there is still demand for those luxury ones. There is market for this. No matter how we look at, Leica is a luxury brand and will always be.

But a luxury brand needs to understand its strengths, and high-end MILC technology isn't Leica's. For comparison, consider a well-known luxury watchmaker like Patek Philippe, or even Rolex. They make mechanical watches with varying degrees of premium finishing. But none of their highly sought-after watches are anywhere near as accurate as a basic quartz wristwatch costing thousands or tens of thousands of dollars less. Rolex's mechanical anachronisms don't count your steps, monitor your heart rate or send you text messages like a $300 Apple Watch does. So should Rolex release an electronic smartwatch with capabilities inferior to an Apple Watch, and then charge Rolex prices for it (e.g., $5000 at minimum)? How would their customers respond? We don't need to look too far to see the likely answer - Tag Heuer is selling branded electronic smartwatches at prices north of $2500. They've generated little interest in a customer base that is obsessed with mechanical traditions, and will happily pay stupid amounts of money for obsolete contraptions that adhere to those traditions (I consider myself to be among those obsessed people). Tag Heuer apparently expected this - its CEO acknowledged that despite having spent a year and much treasure developing their "Connected" line of smartwatches, they were really only seeking "additional business," and that the core business was still mechanical timepieces.

It seems to me that Leica's user base is similarly idiosyncratic - Not necessarily anti-technology, but anti-complexity. They want working technology with a modest set of reliable features and favor a certain ergonomic approach. And Leica is known for an ergonomic approach compatible with that user group, along with top-notch optics. That's why their smaller M and Q cameras do so well despite their high cost. That's why their obligate black-and-white Monochrom cameras are still waitlisted!

For me personally, Leica is interesting because of the cutting-edge optics in small packages, ergonomics, and manageable size. The SL ticks none of those boxes - it's a big camera missing some basic ergonomic aids like a tilting or articulating LCD. The base technology is so-so, and the lenses are expensive, slow, perfect in a perfectly ordinary sense, and (like many lens designs that place optical correction Łber alles), much too large for their capabilities. Yet it's advertised not as a return-to-basics photographic tool, but a multi-function MILC that can take on anything you throw at it.




Feb 23, 2021 at 05:35 PM
zhangyue
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Arka wrote:
But I have that option on Sony cameras too (albeit with certain sacrifices in capability). I actually use my Leica lenses on Sony cameras and have enjoyed some success.


Not really, we all know the sensor stack compromises rangefinder glass performance. SL2 is way better than anyone in this regard.

Arka wrote:

Here again, the number of third-party lens options isn't really a Leica advantage - its competitors do just as well if not better in the third party lens department - a wide variety of Sigma options, and even some fast and light Tamron zooms that are quite excellent.


I canít speak for everyone but for Leica M user, having a SL2 seems make a lot sense. It can take third part zoom or AF glasses from Panasonic and Sigma and including their own SL ones. At the same time, they offer IBIS and top quality IQ.

Arka wrote:
Most of my issues with the SL system are directed at the lenses, which are equal parts ponderous, dim, and expensive. $5000 and 700g for an f/2 wide angle prime is, quite frankly, silly. I was more than happy to drop $4000 on a <300g 35mm f/1.4 Summilux - a lens I still have and love. I'll be damned if I do the same for a 35mm 'cron that weighs twice as much and has shitty AF performance on it's dedicated camera body. And the zooms are even more absurd. $5500 or $7000 for variable aperture zoom lenses that
...Show more

Yes, I bought my 50 APO M and 35mm lux brand new myself last year with no regret but I didnít buy any SL glasses. $5000 for 700g is silly if you buy a lens from other manufacture but not so much for Leica, even I didnít buy them I donít think they are out of my expectation on price end anyway. They are always like that. Are they? Other than size and price, quality seems no question top notch. If there are people pay $5K OTUS a few years back, I donít see anything out of line with AF and APO with one stop slower from Leica.
I think we are in agreement that both have no will to buy them but I donít think it is silly to buy them for someone like them.

Arka wrote:

I don't see much point in getting an SL for manual focus on M lenses. You can use an M camera for that and have more fun doing it. Or you could use focus-peaking on any of the new Sony, Canon, or Nikon MILCs.


There are a lot points compare to other camera and M itself. IBIS, high resolution, EVF viewing frame and focus, all EXIF record. It like how this forum formed before, there are many people enjoy manual shooting. And I am one of them. Actually, in terms of adapting rangefinder glasses especially native OEM one, SL is the one canít be beat. Pop a M lens, it auto detects focal length, IBIS will kick in. Back wheel will become a zoom wheel without any extra adjustment and joystick can be move freely for focus point. With single hit, you get 100% zoom. The joystick implementation on SL and S are better than anyone out there. Shooting on M is very different enjoyment. They both offer different charm.
Everyone is different. You and I both like M. but I have a very little interests for Q as I feel it is too big for a fixed camera but I donít think it is silly for people consider them at 5K +.

As we all see here, if industry all have the same thinking and same set of paper spec (including AF, size, build, price) as reference to judge product. It will be boring. We might all just shooting the same brand and hug each other for wonderful choice we made about our gears.

As far as I can see, there are a lot of interesting gears introduced in past few years and it will be more in the future. It will be tough for manufactures but good for us as customers. The truth is in market itself regardless what anyone think.

I am not the one necessarily agree with SL line but I donít have as strong objection as you do. It is really nothing out of line from Leica, TBH.



Feb 23, 2021 at 07:42 PM
rscheffler
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Arka wrote:
It seems to me that Leica's user base is similarly idiosyncratic - Not necessarily anti-technology, but anti-complexity. They want working technology with a modest set of reliable features and favor a certain ergonomic approach. And Leica is known for an ergonomic approach compatible with that user group, along with top-notch optics. That's why their smaller M and Q cameras do so well despite their high cost. That's why their obligate black-and-white Monochrom cameras are still waitlisted!

For me personally, Leica is interesting because of the cutting-edge optics in small packages, ergonomics, and manageable size. The SL ticks none of those
...Show more

Perfect in a perfectly ordinary sense could be interpreted as derogatory or as a complement. Given what we know about lenses over the decades, making a 'perfectly normal' lens that draws seemingly aberration-free, is not an easy feat. Otherwise we'd be swimming in boring lenses spanning those decades.

I appreciate you're not a fan of 700g f/2 lenses, but I would still consider these to be cutting edge technology, based on the performance Leica has squeezed out of them. Both in terms of sharpness and (unassuming) rendering/character.



Feb 23, 2021 at 08:00 PM
rico
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


zhangyue wrote:
Actually, in terms of adapting rangefinder glasses especially native OEM one, SL is the one canít be beat. Pop a M lens, it auto detects focal length, ...

It detects FL if you use a coded lens. All my dozen Leica M lenses predate such new-fangled technology. The thin sensor cover would be nice although digital M sensors already enjoy that feature. I adapt M lenses of 50mm and longer onto the A7ii and Z6 with no problems of edge color or blurring. It's the symmetric WA designs that are unusable: exactly why I will own an M10 one day.



Feb 23, 2021 at 08:23 PM
Arka
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


rscheffler wrote:
Perfect in a perfectly ordinary sense could be interpreted as derogatory or as a complement. Given what we know about lenses over the decades, making a 'perfectly normal' lens that draws seemingly aberration-free, is not an easy feat. Otherwise we'd be swimming in boring lenses spanning those decades.

I appreciate you're not a fan of 700g f/2 lenses, but I would still consider these to be cutting edge technology, based on the performance Leica has squeezed out of them. Both in terms of sharpness and (unassuming) rendering/character.


If you have a 700g, $5000 budget to make a "perfectly normal lens" that draws "aberration free" in the ranges and speeds Leica is playing at (28, 35, 75, all at f/2), the feat becomes easier I think. I find it far more "cutting edge" that Canon, Sony, Sigma, Nikon, and others can design exceptional lenses with up to a stop more light gathering capacity that weigh the same or less than the Leica SL lenses, and sell them for anywhere from a fifth to half the price. And let's not even talk about Leica's $5500-$7000 variable aperture zooms weighing in at between 3-4 lbs each.

Indeed, Leica's own M lenses are far more impressive to me than any of the costly behemoths it's churning out for the SL system. Those SL lenses are approaching the size and expense of its S-system lenses, all of which feed light to a far larger sensor.



Feb 23, 2021 at 09:26 PM
zhangyue
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


rico wrote:
It detects FL if you use a coded lens. All my dozen Leica M lenses predate such new-fangled technology. The thin sensor cover would be nice although digital M sensors already enjoy that feature. I adapt M lenses of 50mm and longer onto the A7ii and Z6 with no problems of edge color or blurring. It's the symmetric WA designs that are unusable: exactly why I will own an M10 one day.


Yep, if it is uncoded, you still can input from their M list. You need extra step but you keep all the EXIF info. This option you can put first page of menu that you can program to you like. I use this for input TTartisan 50mm .95 and voigtlander 75mm f1.5 that only two M glasses without code. I also use R to M that require you manual input R glass from list. I didn't buy expensive OEM R to L adapter that auto decode ROM lenses.

It is really hard to explain all these little detail in paper until you use those glasses on SL any version to appreciate these little details.

If you ask me, the pleasure of shooting your M glass on M is really not thin cover glass but rangefinder shooting. If it is only for the pixel quality, SL2 with IBIS is even preferred in that regard minus very few super wide lenses that still perform better on native M.



Feb 24, 2021 at 12:31 AM
Sauseschritt
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Desmolicious wrote:
Remember when photographers carried a couple of prime lenses because they were small?


With Leica SL ? Nope, dont remember that one.



Feb 24, 2021 at 05:25 AM
Desmolicious
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Sauseschritt wrote:
With Leica SL ? Nope, dont remember that one.


What did you have for breakfast today?



Feb 24, 2021 at 10:57 AM
Planetwide
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Arka wrote:
If you have a 700g, $5000 budget to make a "perfectly normal lens" that draws "aberration free" in the ranges and speeds Leica is playing at (28, 35, 75, all at f/2), the feat becomes easier I think. I find it far more "cutting edge" that Canon, Sony, Sigma, Nikon, and others can design exceptional lenses with up to a stop more light gathering capacity that weigh the same or less than the Leica SL lenses, and sell them for anywhere from a fifth to half the price. And let's not even talk about Leica's $5500-$7000 variable aperture zooms weighing
...Show more

Size is determined by optics, as we have seen from Zeiss and Leica with the OTIS & SL line respectively. To achieve pure APO performance requires lenses of this size. Anything smaller, requires compromise, and this is inescapable.True APO performance is the distinguishing factor with the SL lenses. The aesthetics, bokeh and draw of a Leica SL lens show this, and that is the reason for the price.

In this case, the other manufacturers have chosen to follow a different route by using in camera processing to a far greater extent. There is nothing wrong with this, other than it may limit resolution going forward. Leica's SL & modern M lenses do this to a far less extent, plus they are designed to out resolve a 100mp sensor. Why is this important, well as we have all seen, as the MP's go up, new lenses are required to reach the performance of the sensor.

Canon with their RF line are supposedly designing for high MP sensors, but I doubt that is true for all lenses. I can't comment on Nikon, as I do not own their system, but I would guess that their top lenses are much the same as Canon's RF L's in philosophy.
I own the RF system and the SL system, and the SL and Panasonic lenses do show finer detail than the equivalent Canon L lenses. There are many reasons for this, and one maybe the anti aliasing filter on the R5. I do know that when I turned the corrections off on the 50L RF lens it was quite a surprise, there is a lot of processing going on. But who cares, in the end the resulting image was useable, and each is a tool with its place in photography.

I think that we are in the Golden age of photography, as all manufacturers are being driven by sensor development to put out better and better lenses. And honestly, Leica, Pana, Canon and Nikon are all good, we are splitting hairs here.




Feb 24, 2021 at 11:44 AM
zhangyue
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Official: Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28mm F2 ASPH lens ($5,195)


Yes, I forget that Leica mentioned many times that the whole set is 100M ready. They have internal 80lpmm MTF data for cron SL set but they never publish it

With current trend in lens design. any difference will be diminish return but difference is there just need pay a lot more to get it.

Forget about price, it really is determined by demand and supply.



Feb 24, 2021 at 12:39 PM
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