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Archive 2020 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?

  
 
Keliot
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


Hello.
Just saw some confusing post regarding getting the max 20 ES FPS on A9i/ii when using third party E lenses, or adapted.

Could it be verified by current owners whether they are able to get max fps of 20 with Tamron/Sigma/others or whether it gets bumped down to 10fps?

I am considering A9 and 20fps is the main draw for action/sports/active type photography that I am hoping to do. I have access to second hand third party lenses and don't foresee myself buying Sony lenses soon due to various constraints.




Nov 13, 2020 at 08:52 AM
QuietOC
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


The majority of Sony E-mount lenses don't support 20 FPS burst tracking on the A9. Most of Sony E-mount lenses support 15 FPS--the only exception is the contrast-detect only original APS-C 16mmm F2.8 pancake kit prime.

https://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/support/ilc/products/ilce9/continuousshooting/en/index.html

No third-party lens or adapter supports 20 FPS burst tracking. I've looked hard for any exception to this. Most probably support 15 FPS.

The Sony LA-EA adapters originally only supported LO frame rate bursts, which is 5 FPS on the A9 with the electronic shutter, but the LA-EA3 got a firmware update to allow 10 FPS with current A-mount lenses (SSM II) and 8 FPS with older A-mount lenses. Many third-party adapters emulate the Sony LA-EA adapters and inherit the same limitations.



Nov 13, 2020 at 02:56 PM
rattlebonez
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


Interesting
On the A9II I set my RAW to uncompressed for 14bit dynamic range
So 12 fps throughput
That seems a good match for lenses that only do 15 fps
Is that true of the 100-400 and 200-600 zooms as well?


A9II uncompressed RAW continuous shooting is 14 bits
A9 uncompressed RAW continuous shooting is 12 bits

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00229990



Edited on Nov 13, 2020 at 05:48 PM · View previous versions



Nov 13, 2020 at 03:49 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


So I tested my Tamron 70-180mm f/2.8 on my a9. Settings were, ES, Flex Spot L w/tracking, Silent Shutter, AF-C, High speed, uncompressed RAW. Configured similar to what I might use it. The lowest I got was 15 FPS, ad the highest 16.5.

Plenty fast for me.



Nov 13, 2020 at 04:07 PM
mogul
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


rattlebonez wrote:
Interesting
On the A9II I set my RAW to uncompressed for 14bit dynamic range
So 12 fps throughput
That seems a good match for lenses that only do 15 fps
Is that true of the 100-400 and 200-600 zooms as well?


I believe 14 bit is not available with continuous AF & high speed...there is no difference in 12 or 14 bit to the eye.



Nov 13, 2020 at 04:15 PM
rattlebonez
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


Mogul,
with the A9 continuous shooting is 12 bits compressed or uncompressed
the A9II gained 14bits for continuous shooting with uncompressed



Nov 13, 2020 at 05:50 PM
Keliot
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


QuietOC wrote:
The majority of Sony E-mount lenses don't support 20 FPS burst tracking on the A9. Most of Sony E-mount lenses support 15 FPS--the only exception is the contrast-detect only original APS-C 16mmm F2.8 pancake kit prime.

https://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/support/ilc/products/ilce9/continuousshooting/en/index.html

No third-party lens or adapter supports 20 FPS burst tracking. I've looked hard for any exception to this. Most probably support 15 FPS.

The Sony LA-EA adapters originally only supported LO frame rate bursts, which is 5 FPS on the A9 with the electronic shutter, but the LA-EA3 got a firmware update to allow 10 FPS with current A-mount lenses (SSM II) and 8 FPS with
...Show more

Thank you so much.
It seems the phrase "20 FPS A9" is thrown about so freely and constantly as to be accepted on faith yet the limitations are not quite explained and acknowledged as widely, it seems a touch misleading. I understand the desire to market "top line features" but for intelligent sophisticated camera review by experienced pro's should have been more explanatory.

After reading a few reasonable sounding reviews about how great the 20FPS A9 is one could be misled. Luckily I've been digging a bit deeper into it.

I am not trashing the A9/Sony in any way, just saying I wish things were explained and laid out a bit better by the multiple reviewers that all seem to gloss over that fact. Yes, it is available in the manual, but not sure people go to read the manual deeply when they survey the cameras they are interested in, they turn to reviews.

Again, don't want to sound too negative here and engender animosity just saying I expected a bit more from the reviewers and the info and explanations available. Perhapsit is my own inexperience and unfamiliarity. I ran into similar "difference" between stated and realized specs with my other brand, so it seems to be an industry wide thing. Everyone is doing a bit of truth bending, saying something glossy and not explaining the actual reality. Same thing with buffer performance, always something with that that limits you, but not fully clarified upfront.

Oh, the misleading world of photography, nothing is as it seems.



Nov 13, 2020 at 05:51 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


The 20 FPS is a valid benchmark. All the other brands publish their highest "potential" numbers as well but have similar restrictions on lenses and other factors to achieve that potential. So, the relative benchmark remains useful.


Nov 13, 2020 at 07:28 PM
osv2
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


Keliot wrote:
Thank you so much.
It seems the phrase "20 FPS A9" is thrown about so freely and constantly as to be accepted on faith yet the limitations are not quite explained and acknowledged as widely, it seems a touch misleading.


no doubt it's hard to understand for a sony newbie such as yourself, who just joined fm a month ago... and there are things that the manual doesn't tell you, which doesn't help either.

modern e-mount bodies focus in two ways:

1) the camera body thinks that it's an e-mount lens(20fps max a9/a9ii or ~10-11fps max a7/a6 series, both are sony limits)

2) the camera body thinks that it's an a-mount lens(10fps max a9/a9ii or ~2.5fps max a7/a6 series, both are sony limits)

so e-mount af adapters have to emulate either of those but nothing else... they either allow you to choose which one to emulate(metabones), or the adapter decides for itself which lens type it emulates(mc-11)... for instance:

supported sigma-brand glass on mc-11 is #1, the best-case scenario
canon-brand glass on mc-11 is #2

3rd-party e-mount lenses will of course be #1, because the camera thinks that they are e-mount lenses, which they are.

so why don't we see any 20fps 3rd-party e-mount lenses? is sony limiting it? probably not, there are many cases of 15fps af-c sigma lenses for example.

sony itself can't make all lenses do 20fps af-c on the a9:
25 sony lenses that'll do 20fps max
26 sony lenses that'll do 15fps max
http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/support/ilc/products/ilce9/continuousshooting/en/index.html?id=spt

note that most of the 15fps af-c lenses are older designs, i doubt that there are any 15fps lenses that have the latest sony xd linear af motors? xd linear af motor = 20fps lens, and in some cases even faster than that with future bodies, according to hints that sony dropped with the fe400(?).

it's not just sony, focus motors limiting af speed is a problem with the r5, where the manual states that many 1st-gen canon lenses can't even do 12fps with the r5... and then there is nikon putting slow stepper motors in z-mount lenses, it's so slow that the dpr z50/1.8 review said that: "it's at least as fast as most of the company's older primes" :-0

beyond all that, sony doesn't provide any standardized method for measuring af-c speed... i usually reel off a really long af-c burst with the a9, while the target is changing distance to the camera, so the camera has to constantly re-focus, then i read the shot times in the exif.

i don't know how accurate that is, and unfortunately people never specify how they determine af-c speed in their own testing... i've literally never seen anyone else reference exif times, so i don't know how other people measure it.




Nov 13, 2020 at 09:48 PM
Keliot
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


1bwana1 wrote:
The 20 FPS is a valid benchmark. All the other brands publish their highest "potential" numbers as well but have similar restrictions on lenses and other factors to achieve that potential. So, the relative benchmark remains useful.


Yes, absolutely, that is valid, it is fully able to do that and other brands have limitations/restrictions that affect them and they too publish highest best case scenario numbers. Fully agree with your statement.

Just wish things were more transparent, clearer, better laid out for us beginners/amateurs by those in the know who deal with cameras much more extensively and put together otherwise strong reviews. I wish the marketing talk was made more "real" by the community of experts. So many people have such deep knowledge.




Nov 13, 2020 at 10:08 PM
QuietOC
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?



osv2 wrote:
no doubt it's hard to understand for a sony newbie such as yourself, who just joined fm a month ago... and there are things that the manual doesn't tell you, which doesn't help either.

modern e-mount bodies focus in two ways:

1) the camera body thinks that it's an e-mount lens(20fps max a9/a9ii or ~10-11fps max a7/a6 series, both are sony limits)

2) the camera body thinks that it's an a-mount lens(10fps max a9/a9ii or ~2.5fps max a7/a6 series, both are sony limits)

so e-mount af adapters have to emulate either of those but nothing else... they either allow you to choose which one
...Show more
The burst tracking rate doesn't seem to have anything to do with AF motor speed. The slowest focusing Sony FE lenses officially support 20 FPS: 50mm F1.8 and 50mm F2.8. It is likely something similar to the change made on A-mount. Sony claimed the A-mount lenses that support 10 FPS on the LA-EA3 had 4x faster tracking compared to the older ones that only support 8 FPS. They talked about a new LSI circuit. The change that was made was likely the lens communication rate. Sony may eventually release II versions of the older FE lenses adding 20 FPS support and perhaps aperture drive support.



Nov 14, 2020 at 12:47 AM
osv2
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A9i/ii max FPS w/ 3rd party lenses?


QuietOC wrote:
The burst tracking rate doesn't seem to have anything to do with AF motor speed.


burst rate is traditionally defined as just a general camera body term... that's how canikon got away with never doing this:

http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/support/ilc/products/ilce9/continuousshooting/en/index.html?id=spt

dslrs are notorious for not actually matching the fastest advertised burst rate of the body... sony changed all that, by spec'ing the burst rate capability of both the lens and the body.

if the burst rate keeps up with a fast-moving target, the lens has by definition a fast focus motor, and every sony lens that i've used on the a9 does that, at the advertised spec.

QuietOC wrote:
The slowest focusing Sony FE lenses officially support 20 FPS: 50mm F1.8 and 50mm F2.8.


that reputation wrt to the fe50/1.8 at least is something that came about before sony released firmware updates.

i've seen a number of claims that the fe90 has slow focus, but i have many a9/fe90 sports pics that prove that is wrong, it'll keep up with just about any moving object, at the rated 15fps af-c... and so will both of those lenses, i'd imagine.

but then again it also depends on how we define "slow focusing"... the fe90 is not the fastest at racking focus from mfd to infinity, or at racking focus over long distances.

cipa gave us specifications and procedures for measuring stabilization, i think even to the point of including which test machines to use... is there a standardized test procedure for burst rate?




Nov 14, 2020 at 10:27 AM





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