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Archive 2020 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?

  
 
mogul
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


speedmaster20d wrote:
that's not bird photography, it's more like a social club of birders. I am willing to bet $$$ not a single keeper will come from a scene like that

Negative Nelly...one place where bird eye AF will come in handy is not having to go into manual focus if the there are lots of branches in front of the subject. Bird photography is more than an isolated bird with blown out background.



Sep 02, 2020 at 01:18 PM
arbitrage
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


speedmaster20d wrote:
that's not bird photography, it's more like a social club of birders. I am willing to bet $$$ not a single keeper will come from a scene like that


All of that just for a Barn Owl perched 10 miles up



Sep 02, 2020 at 01:24 PM
arbitrage
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


speedmaster20d wrote:
The bird eye detection is a gimmick by definition IMO . How is it going to help with a shot like the one below ? Is it going to be able to detect the eye of a peregrine zipping through? What If the bird is small ? What if the membrane is closed ?

With all due respect all those guys pointing their camera like that will end up with a steep angel, under-belly shot with bad light angle, cluttered and ugly BG. They will get the same junk no matter what grear they are using. A waste of time
...Show more

The eye part on the R5 is more useful for the perched birds. It usually doesn't narrow down to the eye on the flight ones unless a larger heron or such.

I should probably have phrased my statement better....it is more the head detect on the R5 that I found to be very useful for BIF. Keeping the focus away from the near wing and less likely to drift backwards on the neck/body/tail. I'm pretty sure that the head detect would have kept on the spinning head of the tern but never got an opportunity like that to try it out on. It did keep on the heads of waders if they turned away from me and even when they submerged the head foraging past the eyeball. With a half eye above the water line the R5 would snap back to eye-detect.

That said, it is just another tool in the toolbox and the A9 has a pretty uncanny ability to stick on the head vs other body parts even without specific head/eye detect. And with RTT you can basically turn the A9 into head-detect tracking by starting your tracking on the head...just not easy to do for BIF.



Sep 02, 2020 at 01:29 PM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


speedmaster20d wrote:
The bird eye detection is a gimmick by definition IMO . How is it going to help with a shot like the one below ? Is it going to be able to detect the eye of a peregrine zipping through? What If the bird is small ? What if the membrane is closed ?

With all due respect all those guys pointing their camera like that will end up with a steep angel, under-belly shot with bad light angle, cluttered and ugly BG. They will get the same junk no matter what grear they are using. A waste of time
...Show more

I hear you and I also tend to agree with you that bird-eye AF is more gimmicky than not. I havenít tried the Canon R5 though but since I am not considering of switching, since I sold all my Canon lenses, I wouldnít even bother doing that. So far in my experience shooting peregrine falcons, burrowing owls, white-tailed kites, etc. all in-flight getting the eye in focus is not an issue since we are dealing with sufficient depth of field while in flight. I have been using both the GM 600mm and G 200-600mm lenses for over a year on my A9, A9 II and A7r IV. If I get mis-focused images, there are mis-focused entirely and 99% of the time, it is due to my not being able to get or keep them within the intended AF area, whatever that may be.

For perched birds, the depth-of-field may play more a role since I would typically approach the bird to get closer where the depth-of-field is more limited. I target the eye or using flexible spot with AF assists, with or without the RT tracking. If there are branches in front of the bird/birds, 99% of the time, I wouldnít bother taking pictures anyway. They will end up in the trash bin in no time.



Sep 02, 2020 at 03:19 PM
gil3
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


Please educate me.
Long time lurker here (previous member but pw expired) and a passable Minolta/Sony photobirder. My current upgrade path is the 3 year old A9 but the Canon R5 bird eye AF caught my attention. I was not too concerned before with bird's eye focusing performance as I was more into the impact of the image. There were great bird/BIF images here even before the introduction of animal/bird eye AF. However, the BED claim for the R5 made me review my old/recent pics. What I am seeing so far was that for most of my still/BIF shots with ok gears, the eyes were usable.

As I understand it, at shooting distances where I have usable crops at 20% and below at 560mm (840mm equivalent), the plane of focus of the eyes should be almost the same as the head, neck, shoulder up to the extent of the some wing formations at side panning shots. At incoming flight especially at the cropping percentages I mentioned and depending upon the subjects (example, shorter beaks or large heads, etc.); there would be differences in the focal plane that the BED would be of help. For those experts here, let me know if these are not the case.

So far from my ok experience, for medium/larger and slow moving/predictable flights at panning captures, it seemed the eye should be ok even w/o the use of animal/bird eye focus capability.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-cJspzrg/2/6e8cfd36/L/i-cJspzrg-L.jpg


https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NqKtnxG/2/5e07b2fb/L/i-NqKtnxG-L.jpg


https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-6wbGSbq/2/8120b7f9/L/i-6wbGSbq-L.jpg



Sep 02, 2020 at 03:23 PM
speedmaster20d
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


mogul wrote:
Negative Nelly...one place where bird eye AF will come in handy is not having to go into manual focus if the there are lots of branches in front of the subject. Bird photography is more than an isolated bird with blown out background.


Don't get me wrong. Not negative, I am just saying I personally wouldn't spend $30K on gear and spend my day to come up with a cluttered noisy under-exposed snap shots from under the belly of a bird 50 yards away on top of a tree.. If one find satisfaction in that so be it, no objections, after all what makes us happy is what we want.

BTW cluttered branches is one scenario where the eye AF doesn't actually work all that well.




Edited on Sep 02, 2020 at 05:03 PM · View previous versions



Sep 02, 2020 at 04:39 PM
speedmaster20d
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


arbitrage wrote:
The eye part on the R5 is more useful for the perched birds. It usually doesn't narrow down to the eye on the flight ones unless a larger heron or such.

I should probably have phrased my statement better....it is more the head detect on the R5 that I found to be very useful for BIF. Keeping the focus away from the near wing and less likely to drift backwards on the neck/body/tail. I'm pretty sure that the head detect would have kept on the spinning head of the tern but never got an opportunity like that to try it out
...Show more


The A9 seems to do a good job of tracking the head area. for that shot I did use focus tracking (zone with tracking) and the green frame was on the head area when I snapped. I just wish the tracking mode was reliable under all conditions, it will never be 100% just because there are infinite variables in the field. I am sure it will improve with time. If Sony made this tech almost 5 years ago who knows what they have in the works now. I no longer have any Canon lenses, but if I run into someone with R5 I would like to try it and see how it works. you can steal Pius's if you like it

Edited on Sep 02, 2020 at 05:04 PM · View previous versions



Sep 02, 2020 at 04:48 PM
speedmaster20d
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


gil3 wrote:

Please educate me.
Long time lurker here (previous member but pw expired) and a passable Minolta/Sony photobirder. My current upgrade path is the 3 year old A9 but the Canon R5 bird eye AF caught my attention. I was not too concerned before with bird's eye focusing performance as I was more into the impact of the image. There were great bird/BIF images here even before the introduction of animal/bird eye AF. However, the BED claim for the R5 made me review my old/recent pics. What I am seeing so far was that for most of my still/BIF shots with ok
...Show more

Gil,

you are correct. Most BIF shots are taken at a distant where the entire body are at least head and neck is within DOF so the focus being exactly on the eye makes no difference just like Josh said above.

I think the more relevant aspect of eye AF is that if the camera can detect and track the eye, then it won't shift focus from the bird to something else like the foliage in the background or foreground, waves etc. However because there are so many variables (birds eye not being visible at times being one of them) I don't think any system will be able to reliably identify a bird's eye at all times and will likely have to depend on the standard whole subject recognition instead.




Sep 02, 2020 at 04:56 PM
johnvanr
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


Sorry, but this thread is about complaining that the engineers who worked on the adapters that nobody wants were quicker than the engineers who worked on the bird eye AF that nobody needs. Letís stay on track here


Sep 02, 2020 at 05:49 PM
Vetteman
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


tester_V wrote:
LA-EA5 is a nice converter for sure but is this what we need now?
Where is a new Menu, the one like A7Siii has?
Where is the bird's eye AF like Canon has?
Sony, what the hell is wrong with you?
You have time to develop a converter so some of us would use a 40years old glass with a $4500 camera and do not have time for Birds AF?


I see the troll is back. Why take the bait?



Sep 02, 2020 at 06:22 PM
vdo1
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


I want a genie. You rub the LCD, and the genie shows up and carries the camera bag and tripod for you. Should also work as a drone, so no more long teles and shots of bird bellies. 135mm GM and genie follows the bird in flight. What's not to like?




Sep 02, 2020 at 07:13 PM
arbitrage
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


My prediction....the minute that Sony sends out the A9II BED FW update it will all of a sudden cease being a "gimmick" and become a valued feature. I will refer back to this post once that happens just to say I told you so


Sep 02, 2020 at 09:41 PM
telyt
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


chez wrote:
As an aside, during my travels throughout Asia, I never once seen a birder...plenty of street, documentary, landscape and architecture photographers, but not one birder.


I saw a few birders in Japan in February, but the most likely reason you didn't
see any is because you weren't going to the same places they were i.e., off the beaten path.


FWIW eye AF works for birds on my a7rIII if the bird is big enough in the image.



Sep 02, 2020 at 09:50 PM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


arbitrage wrote:
My prediction....the minute that Sony sends out the A9II BED FW update it will all of a sudden cease being a "gimmick" and become a valued feature. I will refer back to this post once that happens just to say I told you so


Frankly, I havenít used the currently existing animal Eye-AF feature, not even a single time. I could see that as a valued feature for perched birds at a fairly short distance. Thatís more in the sense of Eye-AF for portraits, something that I value tremendously. For portraits, I use mostly a short tele lens, having a fast aperture and either wide open or close to wide open and at a shooting distance between 3 and 8-foot distance. For BIF, on the other hand, it doesnít matter much due to the generally extended distance and the corresponding depth-of-field, in respect to whether the eye or the head or the body is in focus.

Edited on Sep 02, 2020 at 10:36 PM · View previous versions



Sep 02, 2020 at 10:22 PM
arbitrage
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


AGeoJO wrote:
Frankly, I havenít used the currently existing animal Eye-AF feature, not even a single time. I could see that as a valued feature for perched birds at a fairly short distance. Thatís more in the sense of Eye-AF for portraits, something that I value tremendously. For BIF, on the other hand, it doesnít matter much due to the generally extended distance and corresponding depth-of-field, in respect to whether the eye or the head or the body is in focus.


I have 1000s of BIF shots in the trash with focus on near wing, far wings, tails, mid-body etc. so I don't feel that DOF is always a solution unless you are willing to stop down sufficiently. But I prefer to shoot wide open as much as possible in order to blow out backgrounds. Of course if one is in a shooting situation where the background is miles away then stopping down appropriately can save AF errors with DOF. If one is shooting fairly small birds (which are usually shot at a bit more distance) then DOF is often sufficient even wide open to have great head/eye focus.

But I have lots of situations where having a system that will actively track the head for a BIF is of a great benefit. Swallow shooting ain't one of them though.



Sep 02, 2020 at 10:35 PM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


arbitrage wrote:
I have 1000s of BIF shots in the trash with focus on near wing, far wings, tails, mid-body etc. so I don't feel that DOF is always a solution unless you are willing to stop down sufficiently. But I prefer to shoot wide open as much as possible in order to blow out backgrounds. Of course if one is in a shooting situation where the background is miles away then stopping down appropriately can save AF errors with DOF. If one is shooting fairly small birds (which are usually shot at a bit more distance) then DOF is often sufficient
...Show more

Getting wing tips in focus instead of the eye definitely sucks, no question about it. So far, the Zone-AF has been pretty good in minimizing that, IMHO. With my situation it is more whether it is in focus or it is completely out-of-focus. Almost nothing in-between. Again, I am not down-playing that but if it is available, sure, why not. Thatís an extra tool/feature to have in your tool box.



Sep 02, 2020 at 10:45 PM
arbitrage
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


Quick video I made of Sony Bird Eye AF....it can work even now so I think Sony should give it a full update and bird support soon....




Sep 05, 2020 at 07:40 AM
vdo1
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Where is the birds eye AF and a new menu?


arbitrage wrote:
Quick video I made of Sony Bird Eye AF....it can work even now so I think Sony should give it a full update and bird support soon....



They surely will. But if it becomes noticeable better than Canon's, the feature will be declared irrelevant.



Sep 05, 2020 at 07:57 AM
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