p.10 #1 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
Pixel Perfect wrote:
I'd seriously buy an A9II second hand if they are available. While the 61MP is enticing, the fact you are stuck in mechanical shutter and have VF blackout, smaller buffer and slow buffer clears is hard to bear after you have used the A9/A9II. The 200-600 is still excellent with the 1.4x TC even wide open at 840mm and for birding it's usually enough reach. Also if your source material is good, Topaz Gigapixel AI does a great job of uprezzing. I often do a mild 20-30% max uprez and it looks better than the original. Just don't expect miracles if you have massively cropped and the subject is small and/or very noisy.
Once you have used the A9 and mastered it, you will be amazed at how good the AF is and that silent blackout free shooting is amazing. Can't wait to eventually update to the A1....Show more →
Great info, thanks! It seems that the A1 is the way to go if I want to give Sony mirrorless a go. Those 61MP really are enticing though.
p.10 #2 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
RKnecht wrote:
Great info, thanks! It seems that the A1 is the way to go if I want to give Sony mirrorless a go. Those 61MP really are enticing though.
True. A correctly functioning A1 is indeed the way to go for birding and action shots.
Until Sony gets on top of its issues though an A9 or A9 mark II is a good substitute.
What's primarily missing, more pixels.
p.10 #3 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
ilkka_nissila wrote:
Hmm. At 600 mm, f/6.4 (sorry, the calculator I used doesn't have f/6.3) at a distance of 10 m to subject (using standard CoC of 0.03 mm), the depth of field is 10 cm. That's 1000x one tenth of a millimeter. Small pixels or not, I doubt that anyone would be able to discern between focus errors of 0.1 mm in practical use, unless we're talking about macro work.
Adjusting the CoC to pixel pitch of the A7R IV, we get a depth of field of 1 cm at a distance of 10 m. Still 100x greater than 0.1 mm.
Even a km is made up of 10ths of mms
What I'm saying is the mis-focus was like the back half of the bird's eye in focus and not the front half vs an even spread over the eye. 10ths of centimetres make more sense?
p.10 #4 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
sygtryggr wrote:
Thanks. Sounds like the conclusion of the issue being operator error and/or operator expectations still applies.
“At the molecular level...everything is out of focus”
Doctor Rock
Actually no...you really don't understand if you still think that statement is correct. Why can I get sharp shots at f/4 600mm that are focused right where I want them and can't get them with a lighter, easier to handhold lens at f/6.3 at 600mm when I'm the exact same distance from the exact same subject? Can you explain where operator error or expectations applies? I know the combo is sharp. When it hits it is sharp so it isn't unrealistic IQ expectations between my 600GM and 200-600.
p.10 #5 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
arbitrage wrote:
Actually no...you really don't understand if you still think that statement is correct. Why can I get sharp shots at f/4 600mm that are focused right where I want them and can't get them with a lighter, easier to handhold lens at f/6.3 at 600mm when I'm the exact same distance from the exact same subject? Can you explain where operator error or expectations applies? I know the combo is sharp. When it hits it is sharp so it isn't unrealistic IQ expectations between my 600GM and 200-600.
You describe anecdotal observations with a number of variables to include prime vs zoom lenses and different apertures involved.
I’d be willing to add to the 700,000 words I have read on this issue if someone took your observations and applied the scientific rigor required to provide a logical explanation for what you describe.
So until that happens, I have to simply draw my own conclusions, as does everyone else.
p.10 #6 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
AGeoJO wrote:
I used the combo in the afternoon last Monday and as I posted previously, I was impressed by the cursory look and even more so after a closer look. I venture to say that my keeper rate is actually closer to 90%. It didn’t miss any focus for flying larger birds, such as white pelicans and egrets. And also for smaller birds, such gulls, terns, etc. They flew sideways, away from me and straight at me. Granted these are not super fast birds but they are not too slow either.
My settings are as follows: mostly at 600mm, f/6.7, 1/4000sec., Zone AF, electronic first curtain shutter, Auto ISO, AF Tracking Sensitivity: 1 (Locked-on), Priority Set in AF-C: AF and OSS mode 3. I am using the A7r IV way more now than my A9 II also in combo with my GM 600mm lens for faster flying kites. It feels like it is on steroid now. I am not sure whether it is due to the FW or just the circumstances I was shooting under or not sure what either. But for sure I feel more confident in using this body for wildlife,...Show more →
I'm curious about your choice of sensitivity set to 1 (locked-on). For me this seems to delay the refocus as the subject gets closer or farer, but I was (until now) using priority in AF-C to balanced emphasis so I'm gonna give a try to your settings. I was quite pleased anyway with the keepers rate but it sure could be better (sometimes the perfect posture is the soft one...).
Thank you
p.10 #7 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
sygtryggr wrote:
You describe anecdotal observations with a number of variables to include prime vs zoom lenses and different apertures involved.
I’d be willing to add to the 700,000 words I have read on this issue if someone took your observations and applied the scientific rigor required to provide a logical explanation for what you describe.
So until that happens, I have to simply draw my own conclusions, as does everyone else.
The 600 prime is f4. The extra weight is significant, but f4 is the most important aspect. Same focal length as the zoom at the long end, but f4 means shallower DOF. (DOF stands for Depth Of Field). The zoom is f6.3, therefore deeper DOF. What this means is that any focus inaccuracy would be much easier to see with the prime.
So the comparison to the prime was in fact very relevant but you missed that.
The conclusion most make is that users with plenty of great results over a long time with various equipment have earned credibility and therefore if they report a problem, it would be wise to listen rather than dismiss their problems as operator error.
p.10 #8 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
If I am interested in a topic then I read all primary and secondary material available and then use deductive reasoning/logic (logos) to formulate a conclusion. I tend to see through logical fallacies (errors in reasoning) using this approach. For example, in my research on this topic I have seen logical fallacies to include circular reasoning, post hoc and appeal to popular opinion (your argument)
Some people such as yourself tend to use pathos (emotion) to make a point and draw a conclusion, which is fine, everyone thinks differently.
So I have listened, and have drawn my own conclusion, as have you.
p.10 #9 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
sygtryggr wrote:
If I am interested in a topic then I read all primary and secondary material available and then use deductive reasoning/logic (logos) to formulate a conclusion. I tend to see through logical fallacies (errors in reasoning) using this approach. For example, in my research on this topic I have seen logical fallacies to include circular reasoning, post hoc and appeal to popular opinion (your argument)
Some people such as yourself tend to use pathos (emotion) to make a point and draw a conclusion, which is fine, everyone thinks differently.
So I have listened, and have drawn my own conclusion, as have you.
So, what logic is it that you’re using here? People that actually have the combination available for comparison are telling you their observations, and you’re just dismissing them as operator error without any evidence of operator error being a contributing factor.
It sounds to me like you’ve drawn the conclusion that you want rather than the one that is based on the only available evidence.
Jul 22, 2021 at 01:01 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.10 #10 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
lwan wrote:
I'm curious about your choice of sensitivity set to 1 (locked-on). For me this seems to delay the refocus as the subject gets closer or farer
it's true that locked-on will maintain the location of the focus plane longer, but that only applies when the af system has lost sight of the target... it's waiting longer for the target to be recognized again, at the same distance it was at before, as opposed to immediately jumping to another potential target in the frame.
i don't see how that is relevant to how quickly the system refocuses, as in, the lens motors aren't going to move slower with the locked-on setting.
p.10 #11 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
I've only had the pair for a short time. Could someone give a fairly concise description of "The Problem?" I'm not sure if we have a problem or just symptoms of the results. My only outings so far have been elephant seals and sea otters but overcast or fog and trying airplanes near LAX was even foggier so nothing to really judge from.
p.10 #12 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
The A7Riv and 200-600 combo requires more specific setup criteria than other lens combos, but if properly setup can be an excellent pairing even for demanding BIF environments.
I initially held off my purchase of this combo due to the online discussions of supposed problems. I finally took the plunge after firmware 1.2 came out as some had indicated improvement in performance after the firmware update. I had read probably every post regarding the issues with this combo and based on this research came up with my own plan on how to setup this combo to get the best results for my primary target of BIF.
My approach was simple and effective. Maximize available light for focusing and minimize camera workload by turning off technologies requiring processing time not needed.
Here is my setup that yields 90%+ in focus shots on fast moving targets:
Use shutter speed priority and set speed to 1/2500 or faster.
Use Auto ISO with range set to 100 - 2500. This tends to keep lens at its widest aperture.
Leave OSS set to OFF.
Use AFC in Zone for most BIF situations and change to expanded spot for birds in brush or trees.
Do not use tracking modes as I find A7Riv will keep focus on target even without it.
Use balanced shutter release.
Use Hi speed drive mode (not Hi +) to virtually eliminate view finder blackout.
Shoot in short bursts of 2-4 frames verifying focus between bursts.
I shoot in Crop mode 90% of time for additional reach and better view of target focus in viewfinder.
I have custom buttons set up for changing between Crop Mode and Full resolution,and for changing focus mode.
I have AF ON button set up to shift between Auto and Manual focus.
I invite you to check my image samples on the 200-600 image thread to judge for yourself as to the quality of images captured by this combo using these settings.
I have been extremely pleased with this combo. The speed of focus acquisition, the ability to hold focus even when bird flies behind some reeds or tree branches, and the fact that even without eye focus capability the bird's eye and head are in sharp focus 90% of time, are all impressive attributes of this combo. Perhaps I was just lucky, but based on reports from others enjoying similar results, I feel there is just a necessary learning curve in getting this combo to perform at its best. Hopefully, my experience and settings will help shorten that learning curve for others.
PS: I shoot everything hand held and pre-focus lens to anticipated range of targets to minimize focus acquisition time.
p.10 #13 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
R426 User wrote:
The A7Riv and 200-600 combo requires more specific setup criteria than other lens combos, but if properly setup can be an excellent pairing even for demanding BIF environments.
I initially held off my purchase of this combo due to the online discussions of supposed problems. I finally took the plunge after firmware 1.2 came out as some had indicated improvement in performance after the firmware update. I had read probably every post regarding the issues with this combo and based on this research came up with my own plan on how to setup this combo to get the best results for my primary target of BIF.
My approach was simple and effective. Maximize available light for focusing and minimize camera workload by turning off technologies requiring processing time not needed.
Here is my setup that yields 90%+ in focus shots on fast moving targets:
Use shutter speed priority and set speed to 1/2500 or faster.
Use Auto ISO with range set to 100 - 2500. This tends to keep lens at its widest aperture.
Leave OSS set to OFF.
Use AFC in Zone for most BIF situations and change to expanded spot for birds in brush or trees.
Do not use tracking modes as I find A7Riv will keep focus on target even without it.
Use balanced shutter release.
Use Hi speed drive mode (not Hi +) to virtually eliminate view finder blackout.
Shoot in short bursts of 2-4 frames verifying focus between bursts.
I shoot in Crop mode 90% of time for additional reach and better view of target focus in viewfinder.
I have custom buttons set up for changing between Crop Mode and Full resolution,and for changing focus mode.
I have AF ON button set up to shift between Auto and Manual focus.
I invite you to check my image samples on the 200-600 image thread to judge for yourself as to the quality of images captured by this combo using these settings.
I have been extremely pleased with this combo. The speed of focus acquisition, the ability to hold focus even when bird flies behind some reeds or tree branches, and the fact that even without eye focus capability the bird's eye and head are in sharp focus 90% of time, are all impressive attributes of this combo. Perhaps I was just lucky, but based on reports from others enjoying similar results, I feel there is just a necessary learning curve in getting this combo to perform at its best. Hopefully, my experience and settings will help shorten that learning curve for others.
PS: I shoot everything hand held and pre-focus lens to anticipated range of targets to minimize focus acquisition time. ...Show more →
Very good list of how to make the combo work. I feel after all my testing that the two most important items in your list are OSS Off and 2-4 shot bursts. Good light is also important.
The only thing I would add to your list is that stopping down the lens to f/7.1 or f/8 improves results.
p.10 #14 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
I concur with your comments. I have experimented with narrowing the aperture and the increase in depth of field does help, but good light is definitely needed as I have noticed on cloudier days it is not as quick to focus as it does with the wide open apertures. With my normal settings, on bright days I noticed that that camera will sometimes automatically use a narrower aperture if I don't increase the shutter speed. I have found that 1/2500 - 1/3200 shutter speed is the sweet spot as I haven't seen much improvement in setting it faster.
p.10 #15 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
I just got an a7rIVa that I intend to use with Tamron 150-500. I set up my a7rIVa mostly like Mark Smith suggested in his video, but am wondering on one thing - af tracking sensitivity, he sets it to 5 (responsive) but I`m not completly sold on this idea, if I remember correctly @arbitrage has this set lower (more sticky)?
p.10 #16 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
bobek13 wrote:
I just got an a7rIVa that I intend to use with Tamron 150-500. I set up my a7rIVa mostly like Mark Smith suggested in his video, but am wondering on one thing - af tracking sensitivity, he sets it to 5 (responsive) but I`m not completly sold on this idea, if I remember correctly @arbitrage@ has this set lower (more sticky)?
A bird flying towards you may outrun what the camera considers related distance. If you set the camera to sticky, it will not try to pick it up again. With flexible the camera tries to jumps directly to the bird. Of course whether this actually happens depends on the distance and speed of the bird.
p.10 #17 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
R426 User wrote:
I concur with your comments. I have experimented with narrowing the aperture and the increase in depth of field does help, but good light is definitely needed as I have noticed on cloudier days it is not as quick to focus as it does with the wide open apertures. With my normal settings, on bright days I noticed that that camera will sometimes automatically use a narrower aperture if I don't increase the shutter speed. I have found that 1/2500 - 1/3200 shutter speed is the sweet spot as I haven't seen much improvement in setting it faster.
Why not use manual mode and auto ISO. I got sick of the camera choosing aperture in S mode. I lock it at what I want.
p.10 #18 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
That is certainly an option, but in my experience with my setup the camera is always selecting the widest available aperture for the zoom setting I am using and is very consistent in ensuring max available light for the focus system, which was my primary goal. Certainly there may be times where additional depth of field is desired and you can change your settings to achieve that. In my case, my priority is auto focus performance and my settings ensure I am using the widest aperture available 99% of the time.
p.10 #19 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
One example is when I was using the 300 f/2.8 for surfing. I didn't always want to shoot at f/2.8 as I wanted a bit more DoF especially when some birds got close, where I wanted f/5.6. In S mode the camera basically kept it wide open. Now on Canon cameras you can limit the maximum aperture, but I prefer using M mode as I can just roll the rear dial and change aperture instantly to what I want. Camera can't possibly know what aperture is appropriate for what subject. Occasionally I'm also using my long lenses for landscape shots too and quickly want to stop down to f/11.
p.10 #20 · A7rIV & 200-600 looks like issues may have been resolved
Been playing around with my new 200-600 today and it was very difficult to nail shots on the RIV....it doesn't help that bright light equates to high heat haze conditions which make it hard to assess base-ISO sharpness.
I did get some evening shots that I'd say are very sharp, just less detailed due to being ISO 640+
On the other hand the 200-600 is a breeze to shoot on the A7SIII, no blackout, great AF, and the low resolution masks some of the challenges of FL and atmospherics. I might grab a 1.4 or 2x TC and primarily use the A7SIII with it.
