I was stumbling around on fleabay this afternoon and ran across a couple of Chinese-made geared heads that appear to be – wait for it – not based directly off existing designs!!! (well, at least none that I'm aware of…)
Has anyone taken the plunge and tried one of these? They're certainly not the prettiest I've seen, but they have a kind of industrial aesthetic that may appeal to some.
The same company makes a ballhead with a 100mm diameter, which they claim to be the largest diameter ball in the world. I can't vouch for the veracity of that statement, but the thing looks like an absolute monster.
I also see that Leofoto has now come out with what looks to be a direct copy of the Arca Swiss L60 leveler. Ah well, I guess it was only a matter of time…
the first one looks to be based loosely on the Mitchel/Worrall cinema head but to it has 2 axis X/Y. i give them a for that. if the resolved the gear lash issues of many others I'd be tempted. but not w/o giving it a whirl first. no sight unseen from Guangdong
again it the cinema vein the 100mm "monster" ball split becomes a standard 100mm half ball leveling platform. they just carried it a little further. i wonder if it could have a drop slot
Check the stated capacity of about 13 pounds. Then to gamble on an unknown Chinese product? ----no thanks.
Arca Swiss L60, L75, and the Cube---no worries. I don't want to be questioning or even thinking about the quality or capacity of my geared head when attaching my expensive camera gear.
Thanks Chris. Yeah, those two heads have been on my radar for awhile. They actually look pretty interesting, but they haven't been a priority yet for me to acquire and test. They don't offer quite full freedom of movement. (Can't point the camera straight up for example). I have found geared heads the most difficult to predict how they will perform. It all comes down the the precision of the machining and fit of the parts. I tested the Leofoto knockoff of the ArcaSwiss D4 and the performance was poor. The Leofoto L60 leveler copy seems interesting, but I haven't taken the plunge given the previous performance of their gear, and ideally I like to avoid giving presence to IP thieves.
I actually have one of the 100mm balls sitting on my desk. It is also sold through Berlebach: https://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=details&id=22&sprache=english
Haven't gotten around to figuring out how to test it, but it is undoubtedly the stiffest head available simply due to its size and lack of neck. Paired with my largest sets of legs, it is the camera body or lens foot that is the limiting factor in overall stiffness of the system.
Thanks Chris. These are interesting. I've purchased lens boards for a 4x5 camera from Luland, and they were very well made. I have no idea if that translates to a good quality head though.
Chris Court wrote:
I was stumbling around on fleabay this afternoon and ran across a couple of Chinese-made geared heads that appear to be – wait for it – not based directly off existing designs!!! (well, at least none that I'm aware of…)
Has anyone taken the plunge and tried one of these? They're certainly not the prettiest I've seen, but they have a kind of industrial aesthetic that may appeal to some.
The same company makes a ballhead with a 100mm diameter, which they claim to be the largest diameter ball in the world. I can't vouch for the veracity of that statement, but the thing looks like an absolute monster.
I also see that Leofoto has now come out with what looks to be a direct copy of the Arca Swiss L60 leveler. Ah well, I guess it was only a matter of time…
I'd actually just added the Leofoto Geared Head G4 to my list of gear to buy once foreigners are allowed back into China and we can go home. The weight is very attractive at 645g (the lowest I've found for a good Geared Head) and cost US$100 (630 rmb) in Shanghai (I'm guessing double that in the USA and it's not been released in Europe), so it's great for when I absolutely need one. The heaviest I'll ever conceivably have on it is 2.5 kgs so it's near perfect for my usage.
And clearly this version is nothing like the Arca Swiss so I guess you are likely referring to the G2 leveler in their lineup (you can find it by going to Geared Heads via the other link below) and even that only bears a passing resemblance to the Arca Swiss (as in as much as any of that style of leveller does - it's a bit like saying a ballhead resembles another ballhead just because it's a ballhead).
I've been using a Leofoto ballhead for a while now and I love it, their gear is very well made and very reasonably priced.
Those Lulands look interesting. Especially the tilt plate.
-------------------------------------------
Frogfish wrote:
And clearly this version is nothing like the Arca Swiss so I guess you are likely referring to the G2 leveler in their lineup (you can find it by going to Geared Heads via the other link below) and even that only bears a passing resemblance to the Arca Swiss (as in as much as any of that style of leveller does - it's a bit like saying a ballhead resembles another ballhead just because it's a ballhead).
I don't know, the G4 looks an awful lot like a D4 and the G2 like an L60 ...
DaveTCC wrote:
The Leofoto L60 leveler copy seems interesting ... ideally I like to avoid giving presence to IP thieves.
Since nearly every high end modern ballhead looks like it was inspired by the B1 and everybody bar Manfrotto uses a certain type of quick release plate ... yeah, good luck with that.
(I appreciate it that Arca Swiss haven't been aggressive about defending IP. Choice is good and the whole industry has benefited. Maybe it's been good for A-S as well. But you do get to wondering, why is it always Arca Swiss pushing the envelope?)
Frogfish wrote:
…I guess you are likely referring to the G2 leveler in their lineup (you can find it by going to Geared Heads via the other link below) and even that only bears a passing resemblance to the Arca Swiss (as in as much as any of that style of leveller does - it's a bit like saying a ballhead resembles another ballhead just because it's a ballhead).
Yes, that's the one I was referring to. Certainly seems to bear more than just a passing resemblance to the AS L60, from what I can see…
Note, I'm no Sinophobe, but blatant copying like this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Yes they do seem to be getting after Arca-Swiss recently don't they? The industrial design is sadly lacking though, the A-S products have a much cleaner look to them. I wonder how long the Leofoto knock-offs will last, I've had an A-S L60 since they came on the market and it's still ticking along very nicely.
Chris Court wrote:
Yes, that's the one I was referring to. Certainly seems to bear more than just a passing resemblance to the AS L60, from what I can see…
Note, I'm no Sinophobe, but blatant copying like this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
C
My point was Chris that a leveller has to perform certain functions and remain compact, so the design isn't going to vary much across any design; see the RRS shown in Peter's post which is again very very similar to the A-S 60 (EDIT - Chris has clarified this isn't an RRS leveller).
Ditto Geared Heads, they all tend to look very similar with the trend to become lighter and more compact from say the early Manfrotto 410 (a large and heavy beast). There are obvious cosmetic differences but still as with e.g. cars, they are all cars, there isn't much leeway for reinventing the wheel, just the cosmetics (allowing for the fact cars are far more complex).
This route is well worn on FM but the fact is that in every industry manufacturers, of any nationality, will make just enough changes to a design to pass scrutiny (clearly in China that wasn't the case before but they are really clamping down on the previously rampant IP theft - it's very visible both on the streets, on Taobao and in the courts, though with 4 times the number of companies that are in the USA it's clearly a long road ahead and very difficult to police).
That said with the impressive progression of R&D in China it's clearly no longer a one way street, we are going to see design ideas flip back and forth and that can only be good for the consumer.
BTW the Leofoto ballheads seem to be really well made, beautifully engineered curves and materials makes them sexy to handle (at least from the ball-heads I've seen in China and the one I possess). Longevity obviously isn't possible to state at this time.
wfektar wrote:
Those Lulands look interesting. Especially the tilt plate.
-------------------------------------------
I don't know, the G4 looks an awful lot like a D4 and the G2 like an L60 ...
Since nearly every high end modern ballhead looks like it was inspired by the B1 and everybody bar Manfrotto uses a certain type of quick release plate ... yeah, good luck with that.
(I appreciate it that Arca Swiss haven't been aggressive about defending IP. Choice is good and the whole industry has benefited. Maybe it's been good for A-S as well. But you do get to wondering, why is it always Arca Swiss pushing the envelope?) ...Show more →
You guys are quick - I was still editing that post whilst having breakfast
Do Arca-Swiss benefit greatly from the constant marketing they receive from other manufacturers stating their plates are Arca-Swiss compliant ? Seems great marketing if so
Frogfish wrote:
see the RRS shown in Peter's post which is again very very similar to the A-S 60.
That IS an AS L60… just with an RRS quick release bolted on top – a common mod for Arca heads. I'm not aware of any other heads with that form factor, but I'm happy to be corrected there.
I do appreciate your other points. I'm old enough to remember when "Jap crap" was a common epithet applied to products from Japan. That country soon erased the perception that products produced there were cut-rate ripoffs of western IP, and clearly China is following the same path of rapidly increasing the quality and innovation of the products they produce, rather than relying primarily on low prices as a driver of demand.
In the meantime, it creates somewhat of a moral choice for the potential customer. I have my personal view on it, but I'm fine if others feel differently.
Chris Court wrote:
That IS an AS L60… just with an RRS quick release bolted on top – a common mod for Arca heads. I'm not aware of any other heads with that form factor, but I'm happy to be corrected there.
Yes it's an Arca Swiss L60 with a replacement RRS clamp, as you say - very common. There's one head that looks like the L60 and that's the L75 which is also made by Arca Swiss. The L60 is 60mm in diameter and the L75 has a 75mm diameter.
peter_n wrote:
.... I wonder how long the Leofoto knock-offs will last, I've had an A-S L60 since they came on the market and it's still ticking along very nicely.
I have an Arca Swiss Cube that is about ten years old. Still operates smoothly and rock solid over the years. The only thing I have had to do is replace the rubber slip-on sleeves that slide over the knobs---Precision Camera sent me the sleeves for a few dollars. Still my favorite geared head. And the new L60 and L75 are fantastic additions to the line.
I really like the dual functionality of the d4; very solid geared head and loosen the two large teardrop knobs on the head body and you have a ballhead. Two for the price of one!
wfektar wrote:
I appreciate it that Arca Swiss haven't been aggressive about defending IP. Choice is good and the whole industry has benefited. Maybe it's been good for A-S as well. But you do get to wondering, why is it always Arca Swiss pushing the envelope?
Well as you know Martin Vogt died in a car crash in Besançon, France early last year and that was a huge blow for everyone at Arca Swiss, not just the Vogt family. Arca Swiss is a very small family-owned company. So that tragedy very understandably led to retrenchment in ideas for a while because Martin was very influential in product design. However Philippe Vogt (the head of the family) is inventive and works with designer Julian Couval - a long term employee. Martin's brother Sam also collaborates in design. I'm sure they miss Martin though for so many reasons.
All companies copy the products of others. Go into a Home Depot and look at the power tools where all that changes is the color of the plastic for the housing. What irks me is when companies, USA and others, copy but do not bother to make any changes to what to me are glaring deficiencies.
I wish companies would look at the best features of competitors' products and make a hybrid that is best of breed or advances the state of the art but that does not happen.
With respect to China and to a lesser degree, Taiwan, the best products are often those made under the guidance of German companies and branded with the name of the German company. The US companies want to produce a widget as cheaply as possible and cut corners and we see the results at Wal-Mart and Home Depot. In China they refer to "German quality" as the best they can produce and "Japan quality" for middle tier products, and what we get in the US in general is bottom tier products. US company CEO's are rewarded 100% based on the stock price and so spend money on stock buybacks rather than on product development or better factorie or on worker training and this is unique to our country and it is easy to see the results.
With photographic products from China as with any other country one needs to read customer review to avoid shoddy products. Some like Smallrig are first class and others are trying to meet a price point and so make changes that reduce the performance or durability of the product.
elkhornsun wrote:
With photographic products from China as with any other country one needs to read customer review to avoid shoddy products. Some like Smallrig are first class and others are trying to meet a price point and so make changes that reduce the performance or durability of the product.
I wouldn't characterize Small Rig as first class as I've had quality issues with dimensions and material. If you mean first class in China relative to other manufacturers maybe so. At least they design their products themselves unlike a company like Leofoto who do manufacture a quality product but everything is built from stolen intellectual property.
elkhornsun wrote:
All companies copy the products of others. Go into a Home Depot and look at the power tools where all that changes is the color of the plastic for the housing. What irks me is when companies, USA and others, copy but do not bother to make any changes to what to me are glaring deficiencies.
I wish companies would look at the best features of competitors' products and make a hybrid that is best of breed or advances the state of the art but that does not happen.
With respect to China and to a lesser degree, Taiwan, the best products are often those made under the guidance of German companies and branded with the name of the German company. The US companies want to produce a widget as cheaply as possible and cut corners and we see the results at Wal-Mart and Home Depot. In China they refer to "German quality" as the best they can produce and "Japan quality" for middle tier products, and what we get in the US in general is bottom tier products. US company CEO's are rewarded 100% based on the stock price and so spend money on stock buybacks rather than on product development or better factorie or on worker training and this is unique to our country and it is easy to see the results.
With photographic products from China as with any other country one needs to read customer review to avoid shoddy products. Some like Smallrig are first class and others are trying to meet a price point and so make changes that reduce the performance or durability of the product. ...Show more →
you also make references to things you have manufactured. could we get a peek that them or will we just get crickets? show with pride.
i do have to question where you get your ideas and if true you should demonstrate with references? i have seen questionable manufacturing from all over the world. mostly from the wild east.
yes china is capable of producing quality. but they do seem to demonstrate the inability to do quality control well. you can get things done if you stand over them and have true QA.
for that. if the resolved the gear lash issues of many others I'd be tempted. but not w/o giving it a whirl first. no sight unseen from Guangdong
