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Archive 2020 · The Leica M10-R

airfrogusmc
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p.13 #1 · The Leica M10-R

There has been rumors of a 35 .95 Nocitux for some time now. I am perfectly happy with the 35 Lux FLE.

Jul 23, 2020 at 04:50 PM

rscheffler
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p.13 #2 · The Leica M10-R

peters wrote:
What say you to an "Electronic Shutter"?

Only as an additional option to EFCS. Given Leica probably won't have access to the tech Sony uses in the a9's sensor, there's a great chance an e-shutter feature will suffer from banding issues under artificial lighting. This is caused by the relatively slow scan speed of most sensors, in the 1/15-1/30 range. I think the new Canons are more around 1/50-1/60 compared to the a9 at 1/160, but still not fast enough to prevent some subject motion distortion and artificial light banding. EFCS would at least be somewhat quieter than the regular shutter and would eliminate the shutter bounce problem with the M240 and probably M10 when used in live view with longer lenses and a tripod. Admittedly, this is probably fairly niche use of an M camera.

Jul 24, 2020 at 02:41 AM

geoffreyg
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p.13 #3 · The Leica M10-R

Not sure the lenses will cover full frame.

SlowDriver wrote:
+1. I would not be surprised if the CL2 were a full frame camera, and if it isn't I would expect a full frame version like 1 or 2 years later.

Most manufacturers have bodies in the 650-750g range. The CL is 403g, the SL2 923g, both with battery.

Leica's line-up IMO is just screaming for a body in-between...

Jul 24, 2020 at 03:17 AM

retrofocus
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p.13 #4 · The Leica M10-R

SlowDriver wrote:
As Steve Jobs famously said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will."

It happened before with the Leica CL film camera. Leica pulled it from the market because it cannibalized into their M camera sales. This also stopped the Leica/Minolta collaboration with rangefinder systems.

Jul 24, 2020 at 06:51 AM

simonedf
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p.13 #5 · The Leica M10-R

retrofocus wrote:
It happened before with the Leica CL film camera. Leica pulled it from the market because it cannibalized into their M camera sales. This also stopped the Leica/Minolta collaboration with rangefinder systems.
Yeah. And what happens now? People that are not interested in a rangefinder and consider the SL2 too big/heavy adapt the M lenses to Sony/Nikon/Canon instead of a Leica body.

Jul 24, 2020 at 11:22 AM

retrofocus
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p.13 #6 · The Leica M10-R

simonedf wrote:
Yeah. And what happens now? People that are not interested in a rangefinder and consider the SL2 too big/heavy adapt the M lenses to Sony/Nikon/Canon instead of a Leica body.

Exactly. I do this since 2014 with M and LTM lenses on my Sony A7R very successfully. Debit is only in the ultra-wide focal length range when the thicker sensor stack can lead to some color casts in the corners which still can be removed in PP. Shooting with nearly 40 MP and Leica M glass since then already.....

Jul 24, 2020 at 11:32 AM

rscheffler
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p.13 #7 · The Leica M10-R

Yes, but currently those potential Leica customers don't have a Leica branded FF option between the M and the SL2.

retrofocus wrote:
Not gonna happen. It would be similar to the CL in the film days - big seller but in-house competition - both now with such digital CL for the M- and SL-series. Imagine such camera for $4K (or less?)�.I would honestly get it in a blink of an eye even just with 24 MP FF sensor if the model allows interchangeable M-lenses.

SlowDriver wrote:
As Steve Jobs famously said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will."

retrofocus wrote:
It happened before with the Leica CL film camera. Leica pulled it from the market because it cannibalized into their M camera sales. This also stopped the Leica/Minolta collaboration with rangefinder systems.

Different time, different market. The CL then was a direct competitor to the M camera.

A FF CL as I propose, would slot under the SL2. Not being a rangefinder, wouldn't compete with that core M feature and dedicated user base. But it could be a camera to attract some who otherwise buy an M (maybe for the system size) but are less interested in RF. In theory, Leica could also produce an adapter like the Techart to allow AF with M lenses on the L system, giving those who might want AF with M lenses such an option (though I think this would be highly unlikely).

I would be more interested in such a CL - one that is relatively compact - than I am in the SL. For me it would augment the M system rather than replacing it. As a smaller camera, I would be more likely to bring it along with an M, than something that is fully DSLR size like the SL2.

Jul 24, 2020 at 12:17 PM

peters
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p.13 #8 · The Leica M10-R

So, let me see what you want...

You basically want an "M" system, smaller, but with Auto-Focus and IBIS.

You do understand that this will make the camera significantly bigger, and the lenses as well, right?

Look, it is this way...

CL - APS-C
M - Full Frame (manual)
SL - Full Frame (automatic)
S - Medium Format (automatic)

Personally, don't see a gap in that line-up.

Jul 24, 2020 at 12:57 PM

flash
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p.13 #9 · The Leica M10-R

*if* Leica want to expand the range (after all they're the only company making APSC, 35mm and miniMF and they sell 1" and smaller), then I see two options.

1. An M with an EVF. Like a Q2 and M10R had a baby. Replacing the RF with the Q2 evf and battery (evf's need power). I would buy this camera.

2.SL Lite. A smaller lighter less featured SL. Possibly with the EVF on the left. Takes L mount lenses and a smaller line of Elmarit primes becomes available.

Of course Sigma could add a viewfinder and shutter to their mini marvel and beat Leica to the punch for option 2.

Gordon

Jul 24, 2020 at 04:12 PM

rscheffler
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p.13 #10 · The Leica M10-R

My feeling is it would be #2.

The first option, being M mount, would preclude use of L system lenses, which Leica would like to sell, too.

The second option would allow adapting M lenses, potentially bridging users in both systems. The impression I have, from various online references, including the latest Karbe video, is that the M is somewhat sacred with reluctance to mess with it too much. Some would argue video in the M240 did. Some might say the same about live view and an accessory EVF, but for that I'm grateful and use it more than I thought I would. But an M without RF likely would be sacrilege.

I agree Sigma could beat Leica to it. The fp is partly there, but for my preferences lacks a proper EVF and non-electronic shutter options. We're probably some ways from seeing FF global shutter sensors. But Sigma seems unpredictable with their camera developments, so who knows what the fp follow up will be, if one at all?

It could actually be Panasonic. In this case, then there will likely be a Leica skinned version.

peters wrote:
So, let me see what you want...

You basically want an "M" system, smaller, but with Auto-Focus and IBIS.

You do understand that this will make the camera significantly bigger, and the lenses as well, right?

Look, it is this way...

CL - APS-C
M - Full Frame (manual)
SL - Full Frame (automatic)
S - Medium Format (automatic)

Personally, don't see a gap in that line-up.

You're addressing me?

Given the size of Leica (small), they haven't seemed to be overly reluctant about releasing products to fill niches.

I want the next M to be an M. No AF. Doesn't have to have IBIS. Just EFCS and if possible, fully electronic shutter.

For the L system, I would like to see a FF M-sized camera, or slightly larger CL, so that it's possible to use L mount lenses as well as adapted M lenses without the size compromise of the SL/SL2. If it's more stripped down in the spirit of the M, that's fine with me, though IBIS would be nice. AF in mirrorless doesn't necessarily affect camera size the way it did with DSLRs. But yes, it definitely affects lens size. I don't see any way around this, which is why it's good to have the option to adapt manual focus lenses when desired.

Jul 24, 2020 at 09:49 PM

SlowDriver
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p.13 #11 · The Leica M10-R

flash wrote:
*if* Leica want to expand the range (after all they're the only company making APSC, 35mm and miniMF and they sell 1" and smaller), then I see two options.

1. An M with an EVF. Like a Q2 and M10R had a baby. Replacing the RF with the Q2 evf and battery (evf's need power). I would buy this camera.

2.SL Lite. A smaller lighter less featured SL. Possibly with the EVF on the left. Takes L mount lenses and a smaller line of Elmarit primes becomes available.

Of course Sigma could add a viewfinder and shutter to their mini marvel and beat...Show more →

An M-mount EVF camera (with IBIS) could work.

Key would be the price. To pull M-glass Sony and Fuji shooters back into the Leica camp a price tag of $8k would be too much, especially as it would probably not offer AF as an option.

Other thing, from a marketing perspective it would ideally need to be called an M, something Leica always said they would not do as (quoting Leica) an M without rangefinder is not an M.

Option 2 is very realistic IMO. A FF sensor, IBIS and a larger battery will add size and weight but it could still be made significantly lighter and smaller than the SL2.

Jul 25, 2020 at 06:23 AM

mightbenow
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p.13 #12 · The Leica M10-R

The only big difference I see with the M10-R compared to my M10-P is the bump in pixels.

Before I got the M10-P though I was shooting with Nikons, D2Xs and a D700, and the difference is huge. I also own a Q2 and 24mp isn't as huge of a difference compared to 40.

My biggest gripe is that I wanted the M10-R to use the same battery the SL and Q2 use and then from there most of Leica's line-up is all on the same battery. I hope that'll happen with M11.

The M10-R is a pass for me, unless I can snag a like-new used M10-R for under $6k I'd go for it, but not at the ~$8300 new. It just doesn't seem worth it, to me, at that price.

Jul 25, 2020 at 12:21 PM

peters
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p.13 #13 · The Leica M10-R

Coming from the 18 mpixels of the M9-P - very worthwhile upgrade!

Jul 25, 2020 at 01:25 PM

flash
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p.13 #14 · The Leica M10-R

SlowDriver wrote:
An M-mount EVF camera (with IBIS) could work.

Key would be the price. To pull M-glass Sony and Fuji shooters back into the Leica camp a price tag of $8k would be too much, especially as it would probably not offer AF as an option.

Other thing, from a marketing perspective it would ideally need to be called an M, something Leica always said they would not do as (quoting Leica) an M without rangefinder is not an M.

Option 2 is very realistic IMO. A FF sensor, IBIS and a larger battery will add size and weight but it could still be...Show more →

IBIS would be nice. I think they changed their tune with the SL2 and it's the main issue I have with my CL. I'd rather add 2mm depth and have it.

Not sure about the price thing. Leica are clearly moving their customer base to a higher price of entry. Low volume high cost. It works for them and they're profitable (one of the only camera companies to do so). I really don't think they care if they get any shooters from Fuji, Sony or Canon come back. Those that can afford/justify it will. The rest will be left by the wayside. Leica are a luxury brand now. They don't play in the same park as the other kiddies.

The M name is much harder. Choosing wrong could actually do lots of reputational damage. The M needs to be pure. At the same time they need the M name to market into that mystique. I was a bit surprised when the resurected the CL name for a non M camera. They got away with that. My guess would be something like *EM* for electronic M. Not an M but with the M reference. Nikon might object though. It's a delicate balancing act. There are still a few uoset that they made one with a digital sensor....

Gordon

Jul 25, 2020 at 03:09 PM

flash
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p.13 #15 · The Leica M10-R

rscheffler wrote:
My feeling is it would be #2.

The first option, being M mount, would preclude use of L system lenses, which Leica would like to sell, too.

The second option would allow adapting M lenses, potentially bridging users in both systems. The impression I have, from various online references, including the latest Karbe video, is that the M is somewhat sacred with reluctance to mess with it too much. Some would argue video in the M240 did. Some might say the same about live view and an accessory EVF, but for that I'm grateful and use it more than I thought...Show more →

The difference between 1 and 2 is that 1 is the first retains the simplicity of the M. No video. Simple menus. No extra custom buttons. Some M users really don't like the complexity of an SL based camera. Many objected to the video being added to the M240. No1 is like an M for people who's eyesight is going (me....). And when you adapt M lenses to a camera it doesn't feel like an M. Buyers till need that emotional connection.

Gordon

Jul 25, 2020 at 03:16 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.13 #16 · The Leica M10-R

flash wrote:
The difference between 1 and 2 is that 1 is the first retains the simplicity of the M. No video. Simple menus. No extra custom buttons. Some M users really don't like the complexity of an SL based camera. Many objected to the video being added to the M240. No1 is like an M for people who's eyesight is going (me....). And when you adapt M lenses to a camera it doesn't feel like an M. Buyers till need that emotional connection.

Gordon

I mostly expect the Leica M11 to be a bit like option 1, but no built in EVF just a much better external one with 3.7 million dots that is optional. I think a better battery will be added for people who want to use the EVF more as well. I do expect a bit better shutter with both EFCS and even silent shooting as options and a top speed of 1/8000 as well. I think these three things can be added without changing the basic nature of the M and would be nice to have. They also won't affect people who don't want to use an EVF and who want to use a regular mechanical shutter. They can still do that. The other big change in the M11 that I expect is a better 24MP sensor with a base ISO of 100 (not 160) and dual gain pixels that allow better high ISO performance. In my mind these changes together justify an M11 designation, then we can expect and M11P, M11M, and M11R in due time.

I wouldn't be shocked, however, if option 2 also is made, but I am less sure that it will succeed. I think people who want to use M lenses will still prefer and M camera. It might if the EVF is really good and it has IBIS that is really good draw some people who want to use M lenses, but it will need a whole new line of smaller L mount lenses if it is really going to succeed. The Sigma 45 f/2.8 is the sort of lens that might be attractive, but I suspect this sort of camera is more likely to be built by Sigma or Panasonic rather than Leica. It won't work well with M lenses, however, unless they make thinner cover glass and I don't see Sigma or Panasonic doing that.

Jul 25, 2020 at 04:06 PM

SlowDriver
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p.13 #17 · The Leica M10-R

Aug 02, 2020 at 06:29 PM

flash
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p.13 #18 · The Leica M10-R

SlowDriver wrote:
Any observations on the SL2 sensor versus the M10-R sensor? Is the M10-R sensor better?

I haven't had time to any extensive testing. I have some serious issues on the home front at the moment (literally the home itself) but my feeling is the M10R sensor is better in DR and highlight recovery. But I don't think it's a reason to pick one over the other. Not sure about noise. I'm mostly at low ISO.

Really, I'm going to need a month with the M10r to learn it and probably do some side by side comparisons. I'm planning a short trip in about a week and might see how they do.

Gordon

Aug 02, 2020 at 06:39 PM

serhan_
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p.13 #19 · The Leica M10-R

Per Bill Claff post: "Base ISO is ISO 125 rather than ISO 100 and dual conversion gain is at ISO 400."

Read noise: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Leica%20M10-R_14

Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR):
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica%20M10-R

Aug 06, 2020 at 02:48 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.13 #20 · The Leica M10-R

serhan_ wrote:
Per Bill Claff post: "Base ISO is ISO 125 rather than ISO 100 and dual conversion gain is at ISO 400."

Read noise: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Leica%20M10-R_14

Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR):
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica%20M10-R

Looks like they have moved the resolution up to 40MP and with small improvements in both base ISO DR and in high ISO DR. Not very big improvements but still quite nice given that the resolution improvements. This puts the sensor performance in the vicinity of other other sensors (see graph below). It basically follows closely the performance of the Nikon Z7 up to its base ISO of 120, but the Nikon Z7 has a stop lower base ISO of 64.

Aug 06, 2020 at 03:50 PM

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