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Archive 2019 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition

  
 
RustyBug
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p.2 #1 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


wolfloid wrote:
The Yashica would have had a very narrow rangefinder base, which cannot compare to Leica rangefinders, which are inherently much more accurate.


Agreed, that the Yashica is my only direct experience with RF, so I can't speak to the Leica. Can you expand on what would make the Leica RF inherently more accurate ... and what do you mean by "narrow ranagefinder base"?

thx



Nov 19, 2019 at 09:05 PM
charles.K
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p.2 #2 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


AcuteShadows wrote:
I'm currently trying to get rid of using the zoom on my Z7 for manual focusing. I think I'm having some success with the Summarit lenses, and my goal is not necessarily to be able to correctly focus on the eye rather than the eyelashes when using manual focus without using the zoom function.

Would it be harder or easier to focus accurately on a rangefinder camera (such as the Leica M Typ 240) than on the Nikon Z7 (without zoom), say at f/2 or f/2.4 for a typical head and shoulders portrait magnification (and resulting depth of field)? How much
...Show more

I no longer have my M9/M240 but I find focusing with the Z6 and manual lenses like the R 50 Cron and Nikkor 50/1.2 Ais much easier and quicker. I use focus peaking and no zooming is required. The rolling back and forth with focus peaking acts like a RF in nailing the focus. The quality of the EVF with the Z6 is superb and almost do not need the focus peaking as the detail is so good. I use focus peaking red and set it to max.



Nov 20, 2019 at 04:52 AM
wolfloid
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p.2 #3 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


"narrow ranagefinder base"

All rangefinders are based on two separate 'views' (usually the actual viewfinder position and a separate small window some distance away), which vary in their distance apart, and triangulate on a distant focal point. It is a simple matter of geometry. When that base is very narrow, as on cheaper rangefinder cameras, it loses accuracy. The Leica M3 had a particularly long rangefinder base and is considered to be a high point of Leica rangefinder accuracy. Viewfinder magnification also has to be added to the equation, another point where Leicas ecxel considerably over cheaper cameras.

The following quote is taken from this website:
https://www.35mmc.com/24/01/2015/quick-guide-rangefinders-effective-base-length-ebl/

"Rangefinder base length is the space between the camera’s rangefinder window and the viewfinder. It is the difference between two corners of a triangle, the third corner being the subject the camera is focusing on. The longer the base length, the longer the space between two corners of the triangle, the more accurate the rangefinder is."

Much work has been done on focus accuracy, and it seems that the concensus is that for wide angle lenses Leica rangefinders are considerably more accurate than any SLRs or DSLRs. That means between 12mm to about 40mm. It is usually considered more accurate in the 40-75 mm range, but the nature of the focusing (dependent on two small convergent images at centre of the viewfinder) is less useful and less spontaneous for moving subjects at those focal lengths, whereas when using a good SLR/DSLR with good viefinder magnification it is possible to focus anywhere on the ground glass/fresnel section of viewfinder screen. At longer focal lengths SLR/DSLRs are much better, and of course AF has also radically changed what we can expect.




Nov 20, 2019 at 10:52 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #4 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


wolfloid wrote:
"narrow ranagefinder base"

All rangefinders are based on two separate 'views' (usually the actual viewfinder position and a separate small window some distance away), which vary in their distance apart, and triangulate on a distant focal point. It is a simple matter of geometry. When that base is very narrow, as on cheaper rangefinder cameras, it loses accuracy. The Leica M3 had a particularly long rangefinder base and is considered to be a high point of Leica rangefinder accuracy. Viewfinder magnification also has to be added to the equation, another point where Leicas ecxel considerably over cheaper cameras.

The following quote is
...Show more

Thanks. Gotcha on the geometry @ triangulation.



Nov 20, 2019 at 11:10 AM
Arka
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p.2 #5 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


AcuteShadows wrote:
I'm currently trying to get rid of using the zoom on my Z7 for manual focusing. I think I'm having some success with the Summarit lenses, and my goal is not necessarily to be able to correctly focus on the eye rather than the eyelashes when using manual focus without using the zoom function.

Would it be harder or easier to focus accurately on a rangefinder camera (such as the Leica M Typ 240) than on the Nikon Z7 (without zoom), say at f/2 or f/2.4 for a typical head and shoulders portrait magnification (and resulting depth of field)? How much
...Show more

RFs (a species of mirrorless cameras) are great for MF'ing lenses in the 35-50 range at f/2 or slower. In my own experience, 75-90mm lenses are hard to master without the use of accessory magnifiers. Wider lenses often capture content outside the viewfinder window, which is annoying.

Also in my experience, focusing my Leica lenses on pure mirrorless cameras (in my case a Sony A9) is easier than on an RF. This is especially true for longer lenses (where you get digital focus magnifiers and peaking) and wide lenses (where you get a WYSIWYG perspective).

Also, you get the benefit of built in In-body image stabilization ("IBIS") on pure mirrorless cameras, though you need to remember to adjust the IBIS to match the focal length of the lens you're using (at least you do on the Sony cameras when using adapted lenses).

Also, on pure mirrorless cameras you have the option to adapt just about any lens. I'm currently using Leica, Cosina, and Pentax medium format lenses on my Sony (with the last being combined with a FotoDiox tilt-shift adapter). Not sure there are anywhere near as many choices on a Leica M camera.

Finally, there are some really cool adapter options to convert M lenses to AF lenses on Sony cameras like the A9 (no Nikon Z versions yet). For example, the TechArt Pro adapter is an imperfect but highly usable product in this regard that has helped me capture a lot of keepers in situations that would likely have been impossible to reproduce using MF on a rangefinder or mirrorless (i.e., fidgeting or fast-moving subjects and shallow depth of field conditions on long lenses). Fotodiox has a knockoff version of this adapter as well.



Nov 20, 2019 at 03:03 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #6 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


Arka wrote:
Also, on pure mirrorless cameras you have the option to adapt just about any lens. I'm currently using Leica, Cosina, and Pentax medium format lenses on my Sony (with the last being combined with a FotoDiox tilt-shift adapter). Not sure there are anywhere near as many choices on a Leica M camera.


As of the M240 and M10, both are compatible with virtually any 3rd party lens that has a long enough flange distance and doesn't require electrical power to operate (even then there are ways around using most Canon EF lenses, if desired) and make use of the rangefinder coupling of M lenses, unavailable on any other camera system. IMO they combine the best of both types of manual focusing to allow the photographer use of whichever technology best suits the requirements for a given situation.

Granted, as with anything, there are compromises such as the M240's slow live view implementation and relatively low-res EVF compared to newer mirrorless cameras, inability to magnify off center, etc., but the M10 certainly has narrowed much the gap, other than IBIS. As a given, one can use native M lenses on a sensor stack designed specifically for them without worry about image degradation or use of PCX lens attachments, 3rd party sensor mods, etc. So it will depend on what the priority is for desired features.

Without doubt, focus peaking is effective at getting focus very close when shooting at or near wide open with many lenses. My point earlier was that when shooting stopped down, precise EVF focusing without magnification becomes more difficult due to the 'depth' of the peaking. Slight focus misses become more obvious on 40+MP sensors (assuming images are not scaled down for final use). Focus magnification solves much of this but is an additional step that slows down the process and may not be suitable in some situations, which seems to be a concern for the OP.



Nov 20, 2019 at 07:42 PM
Arka
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p.2 #7 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


rscheffler wrote:
As of the M240 and M10, both are compatible with virtually any 3rd party lens that has a long enough flange distance and doesn't require electrical power to operate (even then there are ways around using most Canon EF lenses, if desired) and make use of the rangefinder coupling of M lenses, unavailable on any other camera system. IMO they combine the best of both types of manual focusing to allow the photographer use of whichever technology best suits the requirements for a given situation.

Granted, as with anything, there are compromises such as the M240's slow live view implementation
...Show more

M10 is a nice camera but it doesn't have video, which may be important to some (like me). It's also resolution-limited to 24MP, which isn't bad by any means but certainly less than Nikon and Sony mirrorless alternatives. As a former owner and user of the M240, I will say that I loved and hated that camera - loved the tactility, size, and ergonomics, hated the poor reliability, need for frequent RF recalibration, and slow and often buggy electronics. It was great introduction to the Leica system for me, but once its successor ditched video, I lost interest in Leica RFs. I know that position is sacrilege to many who applauded Leica's decision to dump video, but to me the omission was an important one, as many of my favorite impromptu videos of my daughter were captured using the Leica M240 video feature.

Also bear in mind that Leicas often have some weird limitations and quirks on the extreme ends of one's photography needs. On the m240, you had to use mandatory dark-frame noise reduction for long exposures, which doubles shoot time for that scenario. ISO setting also directly impacts the maximum duration of a given exposure - even a cable release can't defeat Leica's exposure maximums for shutter speed. I believe these constraints are also in the first generation S cameras.



Nov 20, 2019 at 08:24 PM
pmeheut
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p.2 #8 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


Arka wrote:
M10 is a nice camera but it doesn't have video, which may be important to some (like me). It's also resolution-limited to 24MP
...
I know that position is sacrilege to many who applauded Leica's decision to dump video, but to me the omission was an important one, as many of my favorite impromptu videos of my daughter were captured using the Leica M240 video feature.
...
On the m240, you had to use mandatory dark-frame noise reduction for long exposures, which doubles shoot time for that scenario. ISO setting also directly impacts the maximum duration of a given exposure


No sacrilege but one can wonder why you bought a Leica M in the first place. This is not and never has been a "do it all" camera and it is not designed with long exposure or children video in mind.
Most of the cameras can do these a lot better and it seems that the M was maybe the worst choice for you.




Nov 21, 2019 at 01:22 AM
sirimiri
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p.2 #9 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


He said why he liked (bought) it: "tactility, size, and ergonomics". Remember, the M240 heralded some new technologies for the traditionally staid and conservative M line, and here in 2019 we enjoy the hindsight of seeing that Leica dropped video from the M bodies, among other engineering and design decisions made between day one of availability of the M240 versus the M10.

Leica trades in part on mystique. If that (in part) attracted Arka and myself to the M system, who is to say that's the worst choice?

Conversely we could have all gone out bought Samsung NXs...which led to precisely nowhere.



Nov 21, 2019 at 02:16 AM
pmeheut
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p.2 #10 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


sirimiri wrote:
Leica trades in part on mystique. If that (in part) attracted Arka and myself to the M system, who is to say that's the worst choice?

My point exactly.

If you buy a M because of the mystique around it but do not know its limitations and want to use it like a standard P&S, DSLR or mirrorless, this is the worst choice.






Nov 21, 2019 at 04:55 AM
Arka
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p.2 #11 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


pmeheut wrote:
No sacrilege but one can wonder why you bought a Leica M in the first place. This is not and never has been a "do it all" camera and it is not designed with long exposure or children video in mind.
Most of the cameras can do these a lot better and it seems that the M was maybe the worst choice for you.



Don't use the technical limitations of the camera as a cudgel for attacking those who sought more from it. I loved my M240 even with its warts, because it had a lot of what I wanted in a camera. Some of these capabilities disappeared with the M10. Other minor irritations (like the long-exposure) Is it the customer's fault for desiring features removed in an updated version of a camera? Must you rhetorically wonder whether "the Leica M right for you in the first place?" My answer to you is that it certainly could have been. And maybe someday it could be - I still have all my Leica lenses and I'm not letting them go!

Where is it written (other than here by you) that RFs are unsuitable for long exposure work? Could you not use a film based RF for long exposure work? (Answer: yes you could). Could you not use an M240 for video while you cannot do the same for its successor? (Answer: yes you could). Do not conflate technical limitations in Leica's technology with Leica's apparent (to you) desire to serve a customer that sees more in less. There are certainly aspects of Leica's M system that deliberately one-size-does-not-fit-all. If I was whining about how the AF on the M camera stinks, you might have a case to make. But your defense of long-exposure constraints that are clearly technical rather than artisanal reeks of reverse justification and even a hint of snobbery.



Nov 21, 2019 at 12:32 PM
pmeheut
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p.2 #12 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


Arka wrote:
Don't use the technical limitations of the camera as a cudgel for attacking those who sought more from it.


Saying that a camera is not a good choice for you is attacking you?
Strange world.




Nov 21, 2019 at 12:33 PM
Arka
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p.2 #13 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


sirimiri wrote:
He said why he liked (bought) it: "tactility, size, and ergonomics". Remember, the M240 heralded some new technologies for the traditionally staid and conservative M line, and here in 2019 we enjoy the hindsight of seeing that Leica dropped video from the M bodies, among other engineering and design decisions made between day one of availability of the M240 versus the M10.

Leica trades in part on mystique. If that (in part) attracted Arka and myself to the M system, who is to say that's the worst choice?

Conversely we could have all gone out bought Samsung NXs...which led to precisely nowhere.


I don't think I was attracted by mystique. For me, the biggest draw was access to very light and easy-to-use MF lenses that were fast, of excellent quality, and could last a lifetime. The M camera itself was ergonomic and pretty small, both overwhelmingly important pluses to me. The minuses are pretty much as I described above. The thing that disappointed me was the fact that some of the things that made the M240 a good camera for me disappeared with the M10. Worse, some of the things that I discovered about the M that made it less than ideal for me (not everyone purchases a $7000 suspecting that it can't do what every other camera can do in the long-exposure realm) went unaddressed.

In sum, the M10 is a great choice if you want your imaging choices to be narrow - a still image, manually focused RF camera with great ergonomics and (hopefully) improved electronics over its predecessors.



Nov 22, 2019 at 12:46 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #14 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


For long exposures have you ever heard of a cable release? Many of the things you don't like about the M 10 are what many do like about it. A lot of people like me bought the M 262 instead of the M 240 because it didn't have video. I'm glad that Leica left it off the M 10. I love mine. I am kind of excited to see what the new M 10 Monochrom will look like.



Nov 23, 2019 at 04:49 AM
pmeheut
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p.2 #15 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


Arka wrote:
In sum, the M10 is a great choice if you want your imaging choices to be narrow


Yes, this has been the definition of M photography for decades indeed, more or less since the Nikon F.




Nov 23, 2019 at 05:11 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #16 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


I would say it is a great choice if you don't need a one size fits all camera. If you don't shoot a lot of things like sports or birds in flight or certain types of wildlife where you need a lot of distance to get the kind of images that you are looking for then it could be a good fit. I know it is for me. For the type of work I do and the way I work there is not a better tool. If there were I would have it.

Here's an article I find interesting. Scroll down to the Manual Focus section and I agree. It is one of many reasons that I left the DSLR world after a decade for Leica M.
https://www.artphotoacademy.com/the-leica-look/



Nov 23, 2019 at 06:42 AM
Arka
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p.2 #17 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


Of course I’ve heard of a cable release. I have one. Don’t say dumb things for rhetorical effect.

The issue I had for long exposures on the M isn’t the lack of a cable release. It’s the M’s obligatory dark-frame noise reduction that doubles long exposure shoot times, and upper limits on exposure length in spite of having a cable release. The latter constraint is present not only on the M but also on the first-generation S camera - I can only assume it’s an issue with how the sensor is cooled. And in my experience, the upper bound on exposure length is unique to Leica cameras. I doubt it’s an artisanal constraint designed to somehow enhance the experience.

I know how you feel about the lack of video, and you know how I feel. We will never agree on this. But I suspect that if the M10 has video, you might’ve still bought it for all the other reasons you like the format. As for me, the lack of video was enough for me to dump the format as an ongoing concern in my toolkit.

airfrogusmc wrote:
For long exposures have you ever heard of a cable release? Many of the things you don't like about the M 10 are what many do like about it. A lot of people like me bought the M 262 instead of the M 240 because it didn't have video. I'm glad that Leica left it off the M 10. I love mine. I am kind of excited to see what the new M 10 Monochrom will look like.




Nov 23, 2019 at 02:51 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #18 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


If you are on a tripod shooting long exposure does that really matter?

The one size fits all is what everyone else offers including video on a still camera. I would never consider shooting video with a rangefinder. They make video cameras that do that so much better. Proper tool and all. Nice to have one really great digital option that is TRULY different from the rest. A real choice.



Nov 23, 2019 at 03:01 PM
Arka
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p.2 #19 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


airfrogusmc wrote:
If you are on a tripod shooting long exposure does that really matter?


I'm not understanding the question.

I need a tripod for any exposure longer than 1/4s. The problem with my M240 was that whenever I wanted to shoot exposures up to 8s at high ISO, or 60s at low ISO, they effectively became 16s and 2m respectively thanks to dark-frame subtraction. And anything above 60s (low ISO) or 8s (high ISO) was impossible due to Leica's limitations on maximum exposure times. How does a tripod get around those constraints? Also, do you believe that those kinds of constraints are part-and-parcel with Leica's effort to avoid being "one size fits all?" I for one seriously doubt that - this seem more like a technological constraint in the sensors Leica uses for its cameras.

Everyone knows the Leica Ms are lightweight manual focus cameras with very little automation - that's part of the bargain and appeal. It certainly was for me. But the long exposure constraint is one that I discovered myself - I took my lightweight Leica kit out into the back-country to do some astro-photography and realized after a very long hike that I couldn't do it. When I discussed it with the salespeople at the Los Angeles Leica boutique, even they weren't aware of these constraints and were quite surprised. And since there's literally no other camera manufacturer utilizing similar long-exposure constraints, purchasers of Leica's $7000+ cameras are quite likely (like me) to be surprised at such a peculiar omission in capability.

The one size fits all is what everyone else offers including video on a still camera. I would never consider shooting video with a rangefinder. They make video cameras that do that so much better. Proper tool and all. Nice to have one really great digital option that is TRULY different from the rest. A real choice.


That's an interesting generalization of the Leica M's somewhat narrowed use cases, but I do understand the appeal. I also understand your preference for dedicated tools (one that I vehemently disagree with on video, but no need to debate that point). And I am happy that the Leica M works for you. But let me ask you this - if the M10 offered everything it does now and included video, would you have refused to purchase it because it offered a feature that you would never consider using?



Nov 23, 2019 at 11:17 PM
imagesfromobjects
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p.2 #20 · Mirrorless to Rangefinder transition


There's an interview on YouTube with Dr. Kaufmann where he's asked about future Leica products he'd be interested in making, and he mentioned (along with a watch and a smartphone) wanting to make a "Leikina": a stripped-down digital video camera. That, I could maybe get on board with. The watch and cell phone... not so much. He acknowledged that Leica has lagged in this field and foresees Street Videography and reportage-style documentary filmmaking as fitting within the general ethos Leica is about. I'm also really confused by why they dropped video from the M10, and suspect that it was much more about tech than about maintaining the bloodline, but none of us will really ever know the whole story there.

I never shot any video until I had a kid, now I shoot it all the time and people even occasionally pay me for it. Hybrid capability is 100% necessary to me in a camera and I wouldn't consider a digital camera without at least as decent video quality as the a7S. Yes, I still shoot a film Leica too, but I would TOTALLY shoot video on a rangefinder, and indeed, much of my filming is done with tabbed lenses using haptics and zone focusing to pull focus.

Most of what Leica does, I get. Minimal, using only the essentials, extreme high quality and compact form. Awesome. Some stuff I feel like they just do to maintain the mystique and elitism associated with the brand, and that's fine too, but let's call a spade a spade here.
Arka wrote:
I'm not understanding the question.

I need a tripod for any exposure longer than 1/4s. The problem with my M240 was that whenever I wanted to shoot exposures up to 8s at high ISO, or 60s at low ISO, they effectively became 16s and 2m respectively thanks to dark-frame subtraction. And anything above 60s (low ISO) or 8s (high ISO) was impossible due to Leica's limitations on maximum exposure times. How does a tripod get around those constraints? Also, do you believe that those kinds of constraints are part-and-parcel with Leica's effort to avoid being "one size fits all?" I
...Show more



Nov 23, 2019 at 11:49 PM
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