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Archive 2018 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)

  
 
timballic
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p.3 #1 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


mapgraphs wrote:


Lately, I've been trying to track another variable, one that nobody seems to have questioned - the camera. The lens testing I have followed seems to assume that the sensor, cover glass and mount registration and alignment are not variables, that any tolerance variation is all the lens. I suspect (without any empirical evidence) that tolerance variation, in combination, between all these parts (including the lens) might be a factor, especially with Sony mounts. Push the tolerance to one extreme or another, combined with an extreme tolerance in the same direction with the lens, etc... Then there is understanding
...Show more


I agree it could be, IF the problem is the same with each lens, eg, the same corner/edge is soft. If that were the case, definitely have the camera checked out. (Though if every other lens is fine on it, that would suggest against that being the cause.) However, in my case at least, with four decentred FE 28/2s, 3 different corners were the issue, and plenty of other lenses having no problems on the body, which made it obviously the lenses at fault. (I've NEVER had that degree of problem with any other lens!)



Nov 29, 2018 at 09:12 AM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #2 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


DrShouter wrote:
I buy a new lens, after a quick test i discover that it is really off (decentered, tilted whatever) and not useable (I think my example clearly states that this copy is broken, even at landscape apertures it is clearly visible). Your solution for the bad quality control is to send the brand new 5 minute old lens in for a week or month long repair? Why should somebody do that? After such results the lens is going back to the dealer (the bad thing is, that de dealer will ship it to another unhappy customer).


I send in for service rather than replacement to avoid the chance of getting another dud (a long shot, but possible!), and to give an itemized list of any faults (along with descriptions and images) to do my best to get that "excellent copy" when it returns. This has worked several times to my benefit and enjoyment, providing a worry free piece of equipment.

I love Sebbe's analytical approach, and although I'm not a scientist, I am a competitive marksman who makes his own ammunition. So I'm used to testing, and especially batch testing for acceptable accuracy out to 500 meters. At a certain level, the gun and ammo is no longer the major factor in accuracy and scores -- it is the shooter's skill and temperament (call it technique, or lack of). I've found you can make a matter like equipment testing a hobby or competition in itself and become so absorbed that you lose your edge as a marksman by not getting enough "trigger time" in real life practice and competitions.

I only need my gear to function slightly better than my technique, mostly so I don't worry, "was it me?", or was it the gear? Once the gear is good, it's almost always ME, the idiot behind the trigger, to blame for poor performance. Of course, gear needs to be routinely checked due to wear and tear (usually leading up to major events, or in photography, major assignments or trips), but that is a minor point and usually only needs minor adjustment if something has changed.

Not a perfect analogy, guns and cameras, but I think it pertains here when establishing acceptable performance.



Nov 29, 2018 at 09:24 AM
ggreene
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p.3 #3 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


retrofocus wrote:
I personally find it irresponsible buying for example 5 copies of the same lens and sending 4 (or maybe even all of them ) back.


Totally agree. That is pathetic.



Nov 29, 2018 at 10:05 AM
GMPhotography
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p.3 #4 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


ggreene wrote:
Totally agree. That is pathetic.


I agree I dont do that myself. I buy one at a time but im not afraid to send it back if i have too.



Nov 29, 2018 at 10:07 AM
retrofocus
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p.3 #5 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


Gunzorro wrote:
I love Sebbe's analytical approach, and although I'm not a scientist, I am a competitive marksman who makes his own ammunition. So I'm used to testing, and especially batch testing for acceptable accuracy out to 500 meters. At a certain level, the gun and ammo is no longer the major factor in accuracy and scores -- it is the shooter's skill and temperament (call it technique, or lack of). I've found you can make a matter like equipment testing a hobby or competition in itself and become so absorbed that you lose your edge as a marksman by not getting
...Show more

That's the first time that I hear that a private person is allowed to make his own ammunition. I guess you have a permit from the state? I am saying this since ammunition-making can be a risky and even dangerous process working with gun powder and other ingredients like nitrates. It sounds like a very interesting and unique hobby though.



Nov 29, 2018 at 11:28 AM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #6 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


Ammunition making is common and legal in all 50 states without permit, and in most countries that allow private ownership of firearms. Otherwise, costs to shooters would be prohibitive for competitive or practice purposes. Many cartridges I use in competition are specialized and not available commercially in stores -- too specialized a market.

There are many misconceptions about the dangers of components for ammunition, and much fear and false information. "Gun powder" (current smokeless powder, in used since the late 1800s) is not explosive, unlike dynamite or the older black powder (black powder is still available and legal for firearms, including use in old rifles and pistols from historic times). It is flammable, yes. Unconstrained it will catch fire rapidly and burn vigorously, but not explode. Gasoline is more dangerous for fire. Natural gas for homes is quite dangerous and can explode if it fills a room and a spark is present. Propane is dangerous too. It's matter of being familiar with the dangers and avoiding accidents with safe practices.

It is simple to learn how to make ammunitions and re-load empty cases to fire again. Driving a car is inherently more dangerous to the user and surrounding people and property.



Nov 29, 2018 at 11:47 AM
retrofocus
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p.3 #7 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


Gunzorro wrote:
Ammunition making is common and legal in all 50 states without permit, and in most countries that allow private ownership of firearms. Otherwise, costs to shooters would be prohibitive for competitive or practice purposes. Many cartridges I use in competition are specialized and not available commercially in stores -- too specialized a market.

There are many misconceptions about the dangers of components for ammunition, and much fear and false information. "Gun powder" (current smokeless powder, in used since the late 1800s) is not explosive, unlike dynamite or the older black powder (black powder is still available and legal for firearms, including
...Show more

Thanks for the clarification - I was unaware that ammunition making is legal here in the US. Coming originally from Europe, this would be a big no-no (including gun ownership in general). I agree with your consent that natural gas itself is also a big hazard - I was shocked when I first came to the US many years ago and saw that stoves and other utilities were used with gas (gas is mostly just used for central heating in Europe).



Nov 29, 2018 at 12:39 PM
Beni
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p.3 #8 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


mapgraphs wrote:
Lately, I've been trying to track another variable, one that nobody seems to have questioned - the camera. The lens testing I have followed seems to assume that the sensor, cover glass and mount registration and alignment are not variables, that any tolerance variation is all the lens. I suspect (without any empirical evidence) that tolerance variation, in combination, between all these parts (including the lens) might be a factor, especially with Sony mounts. Push the tolerance to one extreme or another, combined with an extreme tolerance in the same direction with the lens, etc... Then there is understanding the
...Show more

That is always one of our testing variables in our studio. Yesterday I was testing a new Sigma ART 50mm 1.4 on a new A7rIII. I was fully aware that the camera mount could be faulty so I ran known lenses on the camera to see if they showed the same results on the new camera as on the other one. Only then could I test the new lens which as I mentioned was slightly decentered pixel peeping the edges of the corners but the problem wasn't showing at out shooting apertures and as such we're keeping it.



Nov 29, 2018 at 01:54 PM
Chris_88
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p.3 #9 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


RCicala wrote:
This is a topic that's near and dear to my heart. It's also a topic that suffers, as so many do, but lack of definition. Reality is that Lens copy x may seem absolutely fine to Joe and be absolutely unacceptable to Bill. At last count I've tested somewhere around 40,000 lenses and I'll share what I know.

Out of the box, our failure rate for lenses (pretty high standards) overall is just under 2%. With low variability lenses it's 1%. Lenses we think of as bad are, at most, 5%.

Let's do some quick math. If 2% of lenses
...Show more

Roger, just curious, how much effort/cost do you think would be involved in increasing the number of near-perfect lenses? You mentioned greater consistency could be achieved by an additional 60 bucks per lens in your 2016 article on QC, but that probably wouldn't increase the number of near-perfect copies substantially, right?

Reading your articles, I came away with the impression that to get a higher shot at a near-perfect lens and go from 65-75% to say 95% would involve a considerable increase in cost, since everything would have to be sourced/built to even higher standards. Seeing how the average Joe won't notice the difference and production plus end consumer prices would become more expensive, I honestly don't see a lot of incentives for companies to try and considerably alter this state of affairs (other than trying to improve overall consistency for those additional 60 bucks).



Nov 29, 2018 at 04:30 PM
pdmphoto
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p.3 #10 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


RCicala wrote:
This is a topic that's near and dear to my heart. It's also a topic that suffers, as so many do, but lack of definition. Reality is that Lens copy x may seem absolutely fine to Joe and be absolutely unacceptable to Bill. At last count I've tested somewhere around 40,000 lenses and I'll share what I know.

Out of the box, our failure rate for lenses (pretty high standards) overall is just under 2%. With low variability lenses it's 1%. Lenses we think of as bad are, at most, 5%.

Let's do some quick math. If 2% of lenses
...Show more

"Failure rate" is a very subjective term - even if qualified with "pretty high standards".

Most of the lenses I keep I have tried at least 2 copies. The Sony lenses, have had a higher rate of variation than other lenses I have tried, with a higher rate of what I would deem a "failure". The other lenses (Loxias and Voigtlanders come to mind) seem to have more general variation, were some corners are sharper (even if well centered), or varying amounts of slight decentering.

Part of the problem may be the golden copies that often seem to get used for "review". After the review is published people get dissatisfied because their copy doesn't perform to the published standard. There may be some stellar copies of a lens, but many other copies won't live up to it. The other part of the issues is MTF graphs that get published by the manufacturer. Some won't perform to the published MTF graphs. The shortcoming won't be obvious and it would not be easy to label that lens a failure. The CV 15 seems to be an anomaly for Voigtlander, but is a good example of unacceptable vs. failure when it comes to variation. I would call the majority of the bad ones a failure, others may say it is normal variation.



Nov 29, 2018 at 05:16 PM
RCicala
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p.3 #11 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


Chris_88 wrote:
Roger, just curious, how much effort/cost do you think would be involved in increasing the number of near-perfect lenses? You mentioned greater consistency could be achieved by an additional 60 bucks per lens in your 2016 article on QC, but that probably wouldn't increase the number of near-perfect copies substantially, right?

Reading your articles, I came away with the impression that to get a higher shot at a near-perfect lens and go from 65-75% to say 95% would involve a considerable increase in cost, since everything would have to be sourced/built to even higher standards. Seeing how the average Joe
...Show more

Chris, this is one of those things that you can't put a broad brush too. It is true that thorough optical testing would not increase the cost of the lens greatly. The issue becomes then what does the manufacturer do when lenses fail? I think it would be easy to keep the <2% bad lenses out of the system, but it's probably not going to make more 'near perfect' lenses.




Dec 02, 2018 at 07:46 AM
bluloo
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p.3 #12 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


I had an excellent 16-35. Sold it, and later repurchased. Had two decentered copies, and gave up.

I expect more quality variation on less costly lenses, but with modern manufacturing techniques, it shouldn't be very high in any case.

We tend to be on the picky side here, and I'd guess that the majority of lenses sold, that many of us might return, are happily being used elsewhere.



Dec 02, 2018 at 11:43 AM
Parariss
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p.3 #13 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


RCicala wrote:
Chris, this is one of those things that you can't put a broad brush too. It is true that thorough optical testing would not increase the cost of the lens greatly. The issue becomes then what does the manufacturer do when lenses fail? I think it would be easy to keep the <2% bad lenses out of the system, but it's probably not going to make more 'near perfect' lenses.




I'm reminded of the case where a lot of us bought the Zeiss ZM35/1.4 (which, at $2k, was not cheap) and put a corrective front element on it to make it work better with Sony's thicker sensor cover glass. One also had to remove shim rings from inside the lens. Inside, IIRC, people would find from zero to three shim rings, and in 3 different color-coded thicknesses, inserted by Zeiss to make sure the shipped product's quality matched it's price point.

For those shims to happen, the lens had to be (1) designed from the beginning to incorporate shimming, then (2) someone had to test each lens and determine what shimming each lens needed, then (3) a substantial majority (few FM-ers reported zero shims inside) of lenses had to be disassembled, shimmed by hand and reassembled. And, (4) depending on how accurate their diagnosis process is each reassembled lens might even need to be retested and re-shimmed a second time.

I want good lenses and will pay extra (some amount...) for quality, but that's an awful lot of costly remanufacturing that seems unlikely to be feasible for a more mass market consumer products manufacturer like Sony. (Perhaps not for an upscale product line like GMs are supposed to be.)

The alternative is the notion of "Designing for Manufacturability." Wherein each component is manufactured and assembled with sufficient tolerances and quality so as to render a final Quality Assurance and tuning (shimming) step unnecessary (although one usually still verifies samples). But, sufficiently tight standards for every component must be both possible and not cost-prohibitive or else the product basically has to be redesigned or dropped. (From reading Roger's blog, it sounds like this is the problem with the 70-200GM -- the design is theoretically good, just not buildable.)

Every manufacturer has to balance what the customer wants and what price they will pay with what can be possibly designed and what can be feasibly built. I don't know which of these factors Sony is weak on relative to other manufacturers or even whether they are. (Only Roger knows! But, if Sony seems to be failing to deliver desired quality it may simply be that we happen not to be located at the optimum point of balance Sony thought they had to choose.



Dec 02, 2018 at 02:58 PM
Chris_88
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p.3 #14 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


RCicala wrote:
Chris, this is one of those things that you can't put a broad brush too. It is true that thorough optical testing would not increase the cost of the lens greatly. The issue becomes then what does the manufacturer do when lenses fail? I think it would be easy to keep the <2% bad lenses out of the system, but it's probably not going to make more 'near perfect' lenses.



Thanks for sharing your insight, Roger. That assessment basically confirmed what I had expected. I guess that means that those who won't settle for anything less but near perfect lenses will have to continue cycling through a handful of copies of each lens they buy for the forseeable future.

Living in a country where return policies are far less lenient than in the States or Europe, I can't play this game here, even if I wanted to.



Dec 02, 2018 at 04:40 PM
Tana P
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p.3 #15 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)



My History:

16-35F4: good 2nd copy
16-35F2.8: gave up
I wanted to upgrade to GM 16-35 F2.8. I tested 2 used copies against the Zony F4 and the 1st copy did alot worst and the 2nd was only better at 16 and 35 FL. I gave up my search and continue using my great copy of F4.
35F1.4: 1st copy not good. will not try my luck again.
35F2.8: good 1st copy
40F1.2: good 1st copy
55F1.8: good 1st copy
85F1.8: 1st copy not good. will try my luck again.
70-200F4: good 2nd copy






Dec 05, 2018 at 03:33 AM
ice29
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p.3 #16 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


21/2.8 loxia - a good 1st copy
28/2 - a good 1st copy (for this lens)
55/1.8 - chose from 2 in a shop, one was really bad on one side, the other (which I took) was perfect
85/1.8 - a good 1st copy

yesterday received 16-35/2.8 (bought online), right side blurry even stopped down @ 35mm - will have to see what I do with it



Dec 05, 2018 at 06:34 AM
jankap
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p.3 #17 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


Please also have a look at the blog of Jim Kasson, where he describes a simple and accurate method to test for decentered lenses. One can send him the results, if you are unsure. But it is a very simple method.
See his blog at the right side (right as the opposite of left javascript:void(0).
Jan



Dec 05, 2018 at 11:08 AM
Mikeality
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p.3 #18 · Experience wirh Quality Control Issues (Sony, Zeiss, CV)


16-35 f4 - Decentered (Right hand side noticeably soft/fuzzy at 35mm)
24-70 f4 - Good 1st copy (Surprisingly good considering the bad rep)
70-200 f4 - Good 1st copy
50 f1.4 - Good 1st copy

I'm really itching to buy a 16-35mm f2.8 GM, but it would really pi55 me off if I dropped 2200 USD on a lens which ended up being anything short of perfect



Apr 02, 2019 at 10:50 PM
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