p.49 #2 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
phinix wrote:
Took it out for a walk.
Its hard to judge if this copy is good or not, what do you guys think?
Do you see any obvious issues?
All SOOC, CV 21mm f3.5 VM II on Sony A7C. I think these are f8, I either do f3.5 or f8.
Yes, I see the very big negative issue of CA resulting in extremely high levels of purple fringing in the tree branches. I have never experienced this lebel of CA in my copy which I shoot on my Leica M cameras. I am wondering if this is an issue with adapting to Sony, or whether you shot these as JPEGs or RAW images, and if you have enabled lens correction in either camera or in LightRoom (or other processing software).
p.49 #4 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
1bwana1 wrote:
Yes, I see the very big negative issue of CA resulting in extremely high levels of purple fringing in the tree branches. I have never experienced this lebel of CA in my copy which I shoot on my Leica M cameras. I am wondering if this is an issue with adapting to Sony, or whether you shot these as JPEGs or RAW images, and if you have enabled lens correction in either camera or in LightRoom (or other processing software).
This would be an unacceptable level of CA for me.
As adopted VM lens on Sony body, camera does not apply any corrections. These are SOOC jpgs, nothing was edited - I'm guessing either this copy has flaws, or it does it on Sony?
Do you think I should return it and get other copy?
p.49 #5 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
Before you decide let's do a little test. Shoot some RAW files similar to the ones you posted. Lots of branches against a bright background. The eith you, or if you don't have the acabilities I will do it for you, let's process the files in Lightroom using the proper lens corrections. Then we will know whether or not it is a bad copy, or just not the right choiuce foir you the way you shoot and process.
To be honest with you, I do not shoot my M mount lenses adapted to my unmodified sensor Sony cameras. I have found to much image degradation when doing the. I shoot M mount lenses, on Mount cameras. If I want to shoot a Voigtlander lens on my Sony cameras I buy the e-mount versions for that.
p.49 #7 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
1bwana1 wrote:
Yes, I see the very big negative issue of CA resulting in extremely high levels of purple fringing in the tree branches. I have never experienced this lebel of CA in my copy which I shoot on my Leica M cameras. I am wondering if this is an issue with adapting to Sony, or whether you shot these as JPEGs or RAW images, and if you have enabled lens correction in either camera or in LightRoom (or other processing software).
This would be an unacceptable level of CA for me.
OK, I shoot in raw+jpg so have raws of those photos as well.
I just imported it to Lightroom. When applied lens profile, it fixed distortion etc also ticked remove CA, but it took off just a bit, those branches in left top corner still look like have it.
How can I post raw file here?
OK, here are few screenshots from top left corner of that photo in RAW in Lightroom.
(all here: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjAzM1h)
p.49 #9 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
phinix wrote:
OK, I shoot in raw+jpg so have raws of those photos as well.
I just imported it to Lightroom. When applied lens profile, it fixed distortion etc also ticked remove CA, but it took off just a bit, those branches in left top corner still look like have it.
How can I post raw file here?
Yeah, even with the corrections applied the problems persist to a level that I would find unacceptable. Please note that this doesn't say anything about whether or not you have a good copy of the lens.
The next step would be to try and do some manual corrections. However, I doubt you or anyone would want to put that much work into images shot with this lens on that body.
This is exactly why I have stopped adapting M mount lenses to unmodified Sony cameras.
In order to acheive the high levels of performance with small lenses that leica is famous for, Leica treats the lenses and the camera as a system. These small diameter lenses with full frame coverage require that the further from center of the sensor, the higher the angle of incidence the light direction must be. The widder the focal length, the greater this problem gets. Leica designs their sensors to cpmpensate for this with famously amazing results. The glass cover is thin, and is composed of microlenses that are designed so that as you move away from center, they are no longer symetrical, but curved to optomize for this high angle of incidence. The Sony sensor glass layer is thicker, and has symetrical microlenses that cannot compensate for this high angle of incidence. This results in the chromatic aberations, distortions, and smearing, that we are seeing here.
The small M mount Voigtlander lenses also have this design. The result is that you need to either buy the E-Mount version of the lenses, or send your camera to a place like Kolari Vision to have the sensor glass replaced by a thinner version. In my opinion the reults are still not as good as a native M mount lens on a Leica sensor.
This is all just simple physics and won't change no matter how good a copy of the lens you get. So changing it out will not solve your issues.
I have both the M mount and the E-Mount versions of this lens. I have included a picture below. You can see that although they are both "Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar" lenses they are very different in size and design. This for very good reasons.
I hope you find this information educational and usefull.
p.49 #10 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
1bwana1 wrote:
Yeah, even with the corrections applied the problems persist to a level that I would find unacceptable. Please note that this doesn't say anything about whether or not you have a good copy of the lens.
The next step would be to try and do some manual corrections. However, I doubt you or anyone would want to put that much work into images shot with this lens on that body.
This is exactly why I have stopped adapting M mount lenses to unmodified Sony cameras.
In order to acheive the high levels of performance with small lenses that leica is famous for, Leica treats the lenses and the camera as a system. These small diameter lenses with full frame coverage require that the further from center of the sensor, the higher the angle of incidence the light direction must be. The widder the focal length, the greater this problem gets. Leica designs their sensors to cpmpensate for this with famously amazing results. The glass cover is thin, and is composed of microlenses that are designed so that as you move away from center, they are no longer symetrical, but curved to optomize for this high angle of incidence. The Sony sensor glass layer is thicker, and has symetrical microlenses that cannot compensate for this high angle of incidence. This results in the chromatic aberations, distortions, and smearing, that we are seeing here.
The small M mount Voigtlander lenses also have this design. The result is that you need to either buy the E-Mount version of the lenses, or send your camera to a place like Kolari Vision to have the sensor glass replaced by a thinner version. In my opinion the reults are still not as good as a native M mount lens on a Leica sensor.
This is all just simple physics and won't change no matter how good a copy of the lens you get. So changing it out will not solve your issues.
I have both the M mount and the E-Mount versions of this lens. I have included a picture below. You can see that although they are both "Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar" lenses they are very different in size and design. This for very good reasons.
I hope you find this information educational and usefull.
Thank you for your reply, it is very informative.
I thought that I could buy this VM lens for Sony camera, cause it was so small, nice to handle, short focus throw etc
I had many E mount Voigtlanders and did not like the size and weight. However, I had 35mm 1.4 which is almost the same as E mount 21mm and liked the size - for me it was maximum I could use on A7C.
So you are saying that E mount has no issues at all and all corrections are applied on camera? How is focus throw? is it short, like 90-100 degrees like VM, or freaking long, like CV40mm 1.2 E mount has?
I bought this VM cause saw many people, including Fred here, confirming that VM is great on Sony and there are no issues.
To be honest, I don't really see that CA when looking at photo on a screen, without magnifying. Would you say that VM would make photos a lot worse on Sony? Like definitely you wouldn't recommend it and get E mount instead?
Do you have other Voigtlander VM lens you use? I guess if you have, you use them on your modified Sony body?
p.49 #11 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
I just bought E version to compare with my VM.
It so cool that when I set f8 and focus to hard stop, I get great sharp photos.
My previous Voigtlanders did not do that, infinity sharpness was just a mm from hard stop.
Compared to VM version it still has, but a lot less CA. However, weight wise its same, either VM and adapter or E version on my A7C. I think I will keep E version this time. I love VM for being so small, like that focusing tab etc but for this specific focal length, E feels somehow better on Sony A7C. Only that focusing ring on E feels hard to move, really has that resistance - for this I prefer VM focusing.
p.49 #13 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
phinix wrote:
I just bought E version to compare with my VM.
It so cool that when I set f8 and focus to hard stop, I get great sharp photos.
My previous Voigtlanders did not do that, infinity sharpness was just a mm from hard stop.
Compared to VM version it still has, but a lot less CA. However, weight wise its same, either VM and adapter or E version on my A7C. I think I will keep E version this time. I love VM for being so small, like that focusing tab etc but for this specific focal length, E feels somehow better on Sony A7C. Only that focusing ring on E feels hard to move, really has that resistance - for this I prefer VM focusing....Show more →
Did you by chance take the same picture with both the VM and the E version of this lens (and maybe even posted that somewhere)?
Jun 14, 2023 at 07:23 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.49 #14 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
phinix wrote:
I just bought E version to compare with my VM.
It so cool that when I set f8 and focus to hard stop, I get great sharp photos.
My previous Voigtlanders did not do that, infinity sharpness was just a mm from hard stop.
Compared to VM version it still has, but a lot less CA. However, weight wise its same, either VM and adapter or E version on my A7C. I think I will keep E version this time. I love VM for being so small, like that focusing tab etc but for this specific focal length, E feels somehow better on Sony A7C. Only that focusing ring on E feels hard to move, really has that resistance - for this I prefer VM focusing....Show more →
These results are consistent with my memory of Fred's tests. The CVM (Leica M mount version) 21 f/3.5 isn't quite as good as the CVE (Sony E mount version) 21 f/3.5 on a Sony camera. The CVM 21 f/1.4, however, IRC does very close to as well as the CVE on Sony cameras, and the CVM 15 f/4.5 is almost indistinguishable with the CVE 15 f/4.5. This is all from memory, so go back and check Fred's results and I might add lots of people seem to have trouble getting a good CVM or CVE 15 f/4.5 so for that lens test it for centering if you get it and make sure you have a good one.
p.49 #16 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
phinix wrote:
No, but I can do that if you want? Can indoors be ok? lots of details etc?
Would be perfect, anything goes as long as the camera is on a tripod and both lenses set to f/3.5, focus on the same thing..
Would also be great if you could turn of in camera vignetting/CA/distortion corrections before.
I was always suspecting the optics between M and E are the same, but I might be wrong about that.
p.49 #17 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
BastianK wrote:
Would be perfect, anything goes as long as the camera is on a tripod and both lenses set to f/3.5, focus on the same thing..
Would also be great if you could turn of in camera vignetting/CA/distortion corrections before.
I was always suspecting the optics between M and E are the same, but I might be wrong about that.
I'll try to arrange something
But I don't have tripod, so will be hand held.
It's not what I see in the images from my E vsn, however. Comments re 'f8 and shoot away' have given me some truly memorable photos that simply had to be taken in 2-3 seconds flat. The Sony bodies and this 230 gram lens are a true point and shoot combo at f8. Two thumbs up from this user for work within its intended envelope.
p.49 #19 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
How does this little lens work in low light situations? Like night environmental portraits or night street?
I have it but did not have a chance to try it out in those conditions.
p.49 #20 · Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5 Color Skopar Review
phinix wrote:
How does this little lens work in low light situations? Like night environmental portraits or night street?
I have it but did not have a chance to try it out in those conditions.
So why not take it and go out in the streets of Glasgow or Edinburgh or wherever in the Haggisland after dusk to try it out?
PS :Szkocja to piękny kraj.W czerwcu i lipcu pogoda jest tak zmienna,że nawet w środku dnia może najść tyle chmur aż robi się ciemno.Nie trzeba nocy.
