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Archive 2018 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?

  
 
melcat
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p.1 #1 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


I commented in the "R leaks" thread that something about the EF–R adapter made me wonder whether it would shut out third party lens vendors. I promised there to start a thread with more detail.

Please note that I'm talking about lenses mounting directly to the body, not via the adapter. I would not be expecting any more trouble with existing EF lenses than new EF bodies normally cause.

In this post I'll give some essential background about the electronic contacts on the current EF mount. In the next one I'll present some of what is known about the contacts in the RF mount, and what that might mean for the availability or not of third party lenses for Canon mirrorless.

The first attached photo shows the contacts on an EF lens, the 85mm f/1.8. Starting at the end with the wide contact, we have 6V for the lens motors, and then the power ground (the wide contact). On the bodies, the wide contact is actually two adjacent contacts. The next pin along is 5.5V, the 1980s standard voltage for TTL digital logic.

The next 4 contacts are the data link. This is what is known as synchronous, meaning the camera body supplies a clock on one of the 4 pins, and for each tick of that clock a 1 or 0 is represented by +5.5V or not on a pin. There is one pin for data going to the lens and one for data going the other way. The 4th pin is logic ground. This type of arrangement is called a parallel synchronous bus and was a perfectly reasonable design for the 1980s (in this case, it's a 1-bit bus).

This makes up the 8 contacts you see in your EF body.

The second and third images show the rear of a lens which can accept teleconverters, the 100–400 Mk II, and the lens end of a teleconverter, the 1.4× II. There are 3 more pins on the lens end of the teleconverter (the rear of the teleconverter has the usual 8, with 2 joined, and is not shown). The 2nd and 3rd of these pins are either shorted or not shorted to the 1st, representing 4 combinations: no teleconverter, a 1.4×, a 2× or something called a "Life Size Converter". The lens, not the camera, can then determine which of these 3 devices, or none it is attached to; it is the lens which then sends modified metadata (focal length, aperture, lens name) to the body using the normal 8 pins. This scheme has the advantage that teleconverters don't actually need any electronics in them, but from the vantage of 2018 seems almost prehistoric—Canon can't introduce another teleconverter with a different multiplier, because there's no way to tell the lens.

We can see that:

- the data link is an old-fashioned clocked one

- the teleconverter presence logic is contorted and inflexible

and we can see why Canon would want a new electronic interface for RF.





pinout on EF lens which doesn't take a teleconverter







pinout on EF lens which takes a teleconverter







pinout on lens side of a teleconverter



Edited on Sep 11, 2018 at 04:34 AM · View previous versions



Sep 10, 2018 at 08:15 AM
melcat
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p.1 #2 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


Now for what we know about the contacts on the RF lenses and adapters.

Canon added 4 more pins, for a total of 12.

We can assume from Canon's claims about higher speed that some or all of these pins are an asynchronous link, meaning that there is no clock signal. The electronics of the 1980s meant that synchronous links were faster, whereas the reverse is true now.

It may be that they use 2 of the 4 pins for an asynchronous link that can transmit in one direction at once (like USB 2), and the other 2 for 3.3V power and ground, but seems more likely to me that it's full-duplex (like USB 3), using all 4 pins for data and allowing transmission in both directions at once.

Obviously the RF lenses still use the 6V motor power on the first 3 pins of the EF mount, and given my speculation that the RF data link is full-duplex probably 2 more of those pins for 5.5V and its logic ground. That makes up in all pins 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8 of the EF mount. Pins 5, 6 and 7 are the data and clock of the old slow synchronous EF data link.

So the first odd thing is that pins 5, 6 and 7 are actually still there on the lens. Could there be a mechanical reason for that? Or do these new lenses still speak the old EF protocol for all their basic operation, with just the extras going over the new pins? If the latter, third party lens makers don't need to ever figure out the RF protocol. But they could not implement a control ring, send DLO data to the body, or use Canon's new closed-loop IS unless they did. Without locking out third parties completely and the attendant bad publicity, Canon would nonetheless have an advantage over them.

The next surprising thing is that all the adapters, including the plain one, include the 4 extra RF pins on the body end. This is disturbing because it raises the possibility that the body will refuse to work if there isn't something talking over those pins, either an adapter or lens. It would mean that third parties could not make short-register lenses that fitted directly onto the body without reverse-engineering the protocol. And that could be a problem if there is encryption involved, as printer manufacturers have done with cartridges.

I should add that none of the well-known reviews, brochures, white paper or online shops I originally looked at showed the lens side of the plain adapter. I eventually was able to see it by freeze-framing a promotional video from a non-US retailer.

The final surprising thing is that the 4 extra pins are present on the lens side of the EF–R lens adapter, even though no EF lens has them. EDIT: this is incorrect. I can think of two explanations:

- Canon just make 12-pin contact blocks to save costs and inventory, and the extra pins aren't used. This is encouraging because it would be a benign explanation of the extra 4 pins on the body side of the plain adapter.

- Canon want to keep open the option of adding RF features like the DLO data transfer to EF mount lenses in the future, perhaps ones meant for video with the drop-in filter adapter. In that case, they wouldn't want adapters out there that don't work with such lenses. But this seems very unlike Canon to make a product which would mount but not work on an EF camera.

(end of incorrect info and speculation)

In summary, it might be that the new mount locks out third party lenses completely, or hobbles their functionality, or does neither. Until we know, I wouldn't be buying. Ideally, Canon would follow Sony and give an undertaking to supply the lens interface to third parties.


Edited on Sep 11, 2018 at 05:18 AM · View previous versions



Sep 10, 2018 at 08:16 AM
MintMar
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p.1 #3 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


I think the pins as such are much smaller problem compared to figuring out the communication. But I guess the 3rd party lens producers will just create an updated tapping device that would read out the communication protocol just as they did it with EF lenses to reverse engineer them.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Sigma's SA mount does use EF protocol to drive the SA lens.



Sep 10, 2018 at 08:34 AM
melcat
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p.1 #4 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


MintMar wrote:
I think the pins as such are much smaller problem compared to figuring out the communication.


Yes, but what if it's encrypted?

I am finding it very hard to think of a good reason why those 3 pins for the old EF data are still there if it is not for Canon to keep some parts of the protocol private to itself. Why have 3 more pins, 3 extra points of failure?



Sep 10, 2018 at 08:37 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #5 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


Since EF lenses can be used via adapters, I assume that third party RF lenses can be made with only the old EF communication and work just fine.

The simple RF-EF adapter costs less that an extension tube, so I don't think it contains any electronics at all. Just electrical connections.



Sep 10, 2018 at 08:59 AM
melcat
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p.1 #6 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


alundeb wrote:
Since EF lenses can be used via adapters, I assume that third party RF lenses can be made with only the old EF communication and work just fine.


I know my post #2 is dense, but please reread it. The plain EF to R adapter has the 4 R pins on the camera side. The most obvious reason for that would be that it has circuitry that identifies it, via those pins, as a valid R system accessory. That would leave third parties needing one of those, or the camera won't speak to their lens.

The post is dense because it tries to be fair and outline all the other reasons those pins might be there.



Sep 10, 2018 at 09:11 AM
tonychen
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p.1 #7 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


It's easy to lock out 3rd party lens with current encryption technology. However, I don't think it's the best of interest for Cannon to do that.




Sep 10, 2018 at 09:12 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #8 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


melcat wrote:
I know my post #2 is dense, but please reread it. The plain EF to R adapter has the 4 R pins on the camera side. The most obvious reason for that would be that it has circuitry that identifies it, via those pins, as a valid R system accessory. That would leave third parties needing one of those, or the camera won't speak to their lens.

The post is dense because it tries to be fair and outline all the other reasons those pins might be there.


Thanks, I also edited my post just as you replied. The low cost of the adapter is also and indication of low complexity.

Can we find good pictures of the new EF 400 and 600 mm lenses? They are marketed as compatible with RF. Is it possible that they have the extra pins?

But in the end, I don't think Canon has deliberately locked out third party lenses. It is just what I think, and not worth much.



Sep 10, 2018 at 09:18 AM
garyvot
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p.1 #9 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


Thank you for the very helpful post.

melcat wrote:
Canon want to keep open the option of adding RF features like the DLO data transfer to EF mount lenses in the future,


This possibility intrigues me the most, as if true it suggests that Canon has no plans to wind down EF lens development in the foreseeable future, or at least that they want to keep their options open. That said, it does mean that any new EF lenses that have the full 12-pin R mount capabilities would not work to their full potential on current SLRs

Could new Canon SLRs with updated EF mounts having 12 pins be planned? Probably not, I'd think, or Canon would have put this enhanced lens mount on the brand new EF 400 and 600 Series III lenses, and so far at least, nobody has said anything about this. But I guess you never know.

(Edit: I see Alundeb raised this same question in a comment just above mine.... Another possibility of course is that these new lenses are designed with "R mount compatibility" specifically to focus faster/better with future pro-oriented R mount bodies. This makes a ton of sense, since Canon could continue to offer its expensive long lenses in EF mount for broadest system compatibility while delivering the best AF performance for its mirrorless models. The bad news is that this suggests there is an upper limit on the AF performance potential of existing EF lenses with R adapters.)



Sep 10, 2018 at 10:24 AM
MintMar
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p.1 #10 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


melcat wrote:
Yes, but what if it's encrypted?

I am finding it very hard to think of a good reason why those 3 pins for the old EF data are still there if it is not for Canon to keep some parts of the protocol private to itself. Why have 3 more pins, 3 extra points of failure?


Yes, encryption is possible, but I don't think it would be some strong encryption - also cameras and lenses will have to be able encrypt/decrypt the commands fairly quickly, and they will be the devices that will have to contain the key which I guess would be shared by all the R system. They might do it per camera and lens, but still, the reverse engineers will be able to purchase lens and camera to take them apart, that is much more than if they only could tap an encrypted communication.

Maybe it's too much hassle to do it than not to do it.



Sep 10, 2018 at 10:49 AM
Mike_5D
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p.1 #11 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


MintMar wrote:
Yes, encryption is possible, but I don't think it would be some strong encryption - also cameras and lenses will have to be able encrypt/decrypt the commands fairly quickly, and they will be the devices that will have to contain the key which I guess would be shared by all the R system. They might do it per camera and lens, but still, the reverse engineers will be able to purchase lens and camera to take them apart, that is much more than if they only could tap an encrypted communication.

Maybe it's too much hassle to do it than
...Show more

The problem with encryption is that it gives the manufacturer a legal weapon against 3rd parties. At least in the US, even attempting to break encryption, no matter how weak, is illegal. Of course, this work could be done outside the US, but the resulting product would probably be illegal to sell here.



Sep 10, 2018 at 10:57 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #12 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


alundeb wrote:
Thanks, I also edited my post just as you replied. The low cost of the adapter is also and indication of low complexity.

Can we find good pictures of the new EF 400 and 600 mm lenses? They are marketed as compatible with RF. Is it possible that they have the extra pins?

But in the end, I don't think Canon has deliberately locked out third party lenses. It is just what I think, and not worth much.


The bayonets for the two mounts are incompatible, so any extra pins on new EF lenses wouldn't be able to reach the new pins on the camera, right? New EF lenses might possibly have things (processors) in that the RF adapter could communicate with that older EF lenses don't, so "older EF pins" might have updated functions - such as new IS algorithms where the canera provides information and refines the IS group movement. If that's the case, I think R lenses will be developed on Canon's normal (slow) timeline while EF lenses that benefit from "tweaks" (rather than full conversion to RF only models) will complete whatever EF roadmap has been in place for years. That would maintain support for EF but might encourage folks to buy RF bodies to get the most benefit. AKA - they don't think their EF body base will switch over quickly - the white paper seems clear that EF will continue for some time to support them.

You mention "new EF 400 and 600 mm lenses? They are marketed as compatible with RF" - does this mean something dfferent from "All EF lenses work on the RF adapter"? I've not seen anything special about them do you have any more detais?



Sep 10, 2018 at 11:13 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #13 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


@AJSJONES - Two teles announced with the EOS-R - lighter and more optimized IS that will undoubtedly work with the EOS-R IS enhancement where the body can talk to the IS system to more finely control it.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/canon-400mm-600mm-32mm/



Sep 10, 2018 at 11:15 AM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #14 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


There's been compatibility issues with 3rd party lenses for quite a while with both canon and nikon.

It would be stupid for Canon to lock out 3rd party lenses. So I doubt they'd do it.



Sep 10, 2018 at 11:21 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #15 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


I wouldn't worry too much - it's much easier to reverse engineer a system than it is to design a system that protects against reverse engineering.


Sep 10, 2018 at 11:38 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #16 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


TeamSpeed wrote:
@AJSJONES@ - Two teles announced with the EOS-R - lighter and more optimized IS that will undoubtedly work with the EOS-R IS enhancement where the body can talk to the IS system to more finely control it.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/canon-400mm-600mm-32mm/


There's no mention of the new EF lenses doing anything special when used on an RF mount. I hope the "assumption" is correct, but why would they omit such a nice piece of info from their releases? It woud require the change to the existing pin functions that I speculated - but why hide it?



Sep 10, 2018 at 11:40 AM
azenis
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p.1 #17 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


I wouldn't worry too much to be frank. It's a suicidal move of Canon if it decides to actually take the extra effort to lock out 3rd party lenses.

Either way, with the EF-R adapter in place, I think what most adapter company would do is to reverse engineer the communication protocol of the adapter. What would be difficult in the first place is if the adapter didn't exist, hence it would be hard to work with the camera's signal alone. With the adapter in place, and the EF's protocol cracked wide-open (at least Sigma is doing a terrific job at it), it shouldn't be hard to just "simulate" an EF lens on one end and get a good understanding of the other end.



Sep 10, 2018 at 11:53 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #18 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


AJSJones wrote:
There's no mention of the new EF lenses doing anything special when used on an RF mount. I hope the "assumption" is correct, but why would they omit such a nice piece of info from their releases? It woud require the change to the existing pin functions that I speculated - but why hide it?


The only close mention is that Rudy, when he announced these lenses, stated that the IS system works even better with newer EOS offerings, but never specifically calls out the EOS-R. So I am not sure either what "compatible with RF" means in the earlier reply.



Sep 10, 2018 at 12:53 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #19 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


TeamSpeed wrote:
The only close mention is that Rudy, when he announced these lenses, stated that the IS system works even better with newer EOS offerings, but never specifically calls out the EOS-R.


Here is RF mount/lens information from the Canon R whitepaper:

RF mount has 3-tab mount like EF, but the tabs have been repositioned to prevent accidental mounting of EF lenses

RF mount has 12 pints vs 8 pins on the EF

RF lenses allow the user to choose the direction of rotation for manual focus control

The lens IS system communicates realtime motion information to DIGIC, which then sends signals back to the lens to help improve IS performance. It's not clear if this is unique to the R but it might be considering how much faster the RF mount communication is.



Sep 10, 2018 at 12:58 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #20 · EF–R Pinout - will 3rd party lenses be locked out from RF mount?


Okay, but the two newly announced 400mm and 600mm lenses are not RF mounts, so none of that applies. That is the question, what is special on these 2 lenses around EOS-R? It seems perhaps nothing other than their weight savings being in alignment with a lighter FF body.

Edited on Sep 10, 2018 at 01:14 PM · View previous versions



Sep 10, 2018 at 01:13 PM
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