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Archive 2004 · Sensor Brush scam

  
 
mt-m
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p.7 #1 · Sensor Brush scam


I'll repeat my post. I have a number 10 Winsor&Newton Regency Gold 510 brush from PearlPaint store. Synthetic. If you blow air on it for several seconds it will attract dust particles. For a second sweep you'll have to "charge" it again.

Alternatively you can just rub your brush very quickly along say, a plastic pen, for the same result.

So - if sensor brush operates the way I described above, then you can get identical result with a brush I mentioned. I think it was about $8 at Pearl Paint.

No, I don't have a "Plasma charger" in my basement. But if you'd like I can take a picture of my Ducati's valvetrain. Looks really cool and "techie". You can "preview" it in my avatar



Nov 23, 2004 at 11:30 AM
DC.Paul
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p.7 #2 · Sensor Brush scam


RServranckx wrote:
And will you have scratched your sensor by testing some brushes with harder bristles?

I'd rather pay more ONCE for a Sensor Brush and have the right brush from the start with great results, rather than run a higher risk of scratching my filter with other brushes with hard bristles.



My thoughts exactly, and its what I've said on this topic all along. Essentially, f you feel comfortable disproving Sensor Brush as 'marketing hype,' or a scam, then head up to Michael's, buy some synthetic brushes and hop to it. It's your CMOS/CCD.

Me? Well, my 20D cost 15x the amount of one of these kits, and based on the overwhelmingly positive feedback I read from SB users, I decided the price was worth it.



Nov 23, 2004 at 11:58 AM
KIDERAL
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p.7 #3 · Sensor Brush scam


As I read all eleven pages, I make the following observation: It is not the brush that is doing the work, rather it is the charge attracting the particles.

Can you charge a pect pad? if so it should work.

Can you charge a full sized pad? If a clean charged pad the size of the image sensor just touches the protective glass, it should attract the dust.

How can you measure the charge

Remember those old discwasher static chargers? You zapped the discwasher pad and then cleaned the album (I guess I am showing my age here)... They may be of use here...



Nov 23, 2004 at 12:44 PM
John_T
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p.7 #4 · Sensor Brush scam


I think you missed a page Dean. Vinyl record cleaners got rejected for potentially having too high a charge.

I think the valid point has been made. If it is worth a hundred bucks to you to safely and completely clean your sensor whenever the whim hits you, then there's not much more to talk about.



Nov 23, 2004 at 01:17 PM
sjms
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p.7 #5 · Sensor Brush scam


yes please lock this one down


Nov 23, 2004 at 01:22 PM
sandy_est
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p.7 #6 · Sensor Brush scam


It's an interesting phenomenon that everyone who has bought this product is defending the company so frivolously. It sure says something about human nature.

I for one remain very skeptical.

I'm all for entrepreneurship and I don't like it when small companies get bad-mouthed. However, manufacturing devices for cleaning sensors of expensive cameras is a very responsible task. Regardless of that, Visible Dust doesn't mention any of the risks involved, but they don't want to take legal responsibility either. They just warn against other methods, so that their product would look better.

RServranckx wrote:
So, what's this about mixed reviews? Heck, if the Sensor Brush is good enough for Rob Galbraith, Michael Reichmann and Moose Perterson, then it's good enough for me!


I've also read the reviews, and I think that Rob, Michael and Moose are extremely irresponsible. They have tried a method that they knew nothing about, found out that it works, and recommended that people should "not walk, but run" [RG] to get them - without mentioning any potential risks whatsoever. At the very least, they could have mentioned that if you break the sensor with the product, your warranty is void.

It looks like our favorite professionals were so thrilled with this new product that they just threw reason out the window. And let's face it, they are professional photographers, not professional engineers or scientists so we shouldn't listen to their conclusions about safety anyway... Well, they probably have the bucks to buy new cameras if they damage their current ones. Good for them.

Too bad Canon isn't making statements about these specific products. At the moment they advise against using this method.

I agree with David and think that this product has "SCAM" written all over it. At the very least, this company is giving out very controversial statements. Let's look at what is on the VD site:

visibledust.com wrote: Attracting protein and DNA to the glass-like surface of a biochip for attachment requires special preperation of that surface. Because dust has many common characteristics with DNA, our products are able to utilize that same technology.

We aren't trying to attract dust, we are trying to remove it.

visibledust.com wrote: Sensor Brush has a wooden handle to reduce the risk of electrostatic discharges to the sensor. Regular brushes may transfer 5000-10000 voltage charges to the sensor.

Avoid using similar looking brushes. Traditional brushes (Artist or Paint brushes) can cause microscopic abrasions or staining. This can lead to blurry images due to sensor fatigue which is hard to correct in Photoshop or other graphics programs.

Most traditional brushes contain mixed filaments that will stain the sensor cover glass over time. Somtimes the brushes are mixed with animal hair containing scales which act as an abrasive on glass surfaces. These microscopic scales
...Show more

This is where it starts to smell "scammy". Is it really so that using traditional brushes is extremely hazardous, but these brushes are absolutely 100% safe. There is not a single mention on the website of any possible risks involved, but they still say that they won't take any responsibility if you damage your sensor.

It seems that they REALLY don't want us to try out regular brushes. Now why is that?

I find it very hard to believe that material of the brush handle would make electrostatic discharges any more likely.

visibledust.com wrote: Addition of positive molecules to the surface of Sensor Brush™ makes it even stronger for dust attraction. This is achieved through gas chamber or chemical treatments using highly advanced equipment.

OR chemical treatments! So which one is it? Gas chamber or chemical treatments? Sounds like they don't know themselves how the brushes are manufactured... It's of course a huge relief that they MIGHT BE using "highly advanced equipment".

On the old website was a picture of a regular document scanner (among other things) and above it was written: equipment used in the process of making the brushes.

visibledust.com wrote: NEVER ATTEMPT TO CLEAN YOUR CHAMBER WITH MICROFIBRE CLOTH OR COTTON SWABS. These materials will tear and leave more behind.

They sure don't leave us with many alternatives...

And the conclusion: IF they sell regular (but selected) brushes for sensor cleaning while making all sorts of claims about the technology used in the process, and while strongly advising against using other brushes, then it IS a scam. All the claims about plasma chargers and advanced processes are probably just put there to justify the high prices.

If they really manufacture the brushes themselves as they imply AND really inspect every brush microscopically, which they claim, then this MIGHT NOT be a scam, but I'm not convinced. At least there isn't a single picture of the brush manufacturing process on their website, but then again, they don't directly claim that they manufacture the brushes either.



Nov 23, 2004 at 01:30 PM
toonhorse
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p.7 #7 · Sensor Brush scam


I can't stop myself from responding.

Their website claims:"Warning - Avoid using similar looking brushes. Traditional brushes (Artist or Paint brushes) can cause microscopic abrasions or staining. This can lead to blurry images due to sensor fatigue which is hard to correct in Photoshop or other graphics programs."

Can someone explain what "sensor fatigue" would possibly mean? I can only fathom that they are implying that the AA filter would slowly degrade over time (due to the abrasions). Personally, I find that hard to believe.

I have found no proof that soft paint brushes actually scratch glass. Furthermore, if the brush is charged by blowing air on it prior to cleaning, it really shouldn't have to touch the AA filter at all to pick up the dust particles.

It seems that $100 is good enough for peace of mind for most users of this product. No matter how hard I try, I cannot justify the expense at this time.

BTW someone might want to advise them that "preparation" is misspelled on the main page of their site. Things like that don't look very professional to me.







Nov 23, 2004 at 02:43 PM
eeprete
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p.7 #8 · Sensor Brush scam


Does the term "Fool's Gold" come to mind with anyone?

If I spent $100 on a product that claimed to work, I too would do nothing but claim it was a success, as psychologically we want nothing more than to know it's a success, rather than admit failure.

These brushes have not even been around long enough to determine the long term viability or adverse effects. Maybe these brushes too will degrade the sensor over time with enough use. Very few of us know the answers to any of these questions, whether we are believers and/or users of the product.

I am tempted to buy this brush just to have a scientist friend compare against some other brushes under a microscope for me.



Nov 23, 2004 at 03:06 PM
toonhorse
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p.7 #9 · Sensor Brush scam


eeprete wrote:
I am tempted to buy this brush just to have a scientist friend compare against some other brushes under a microscope for me.


I sure would be interested to see what your scientist friend found out. Should we start a collection for it?



Nov 23, 2004 at 03:12 PM
John_T
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p.7 #10 · Sensor Brush scam


I don't get it.

The people who have bought them and have used them are happy.

Those who haven't and don't are not.

Who has the vested interest?

I'll clean my sensor with a shoe brush if I like and it's nobody's business but mine.

I didn't vote for Ralph Nader either.



Nov 23, 2004 at 03:16 PM
RServranckx
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p.7 #11 · Sensor Brush scam


eeprete wrote:
If I spent $100 on a product that claimed to work, I too would do nothing but claim it was a success, as psychologically we want nothing more than to know it's a success, rather than admit failure.


Yes, sure, everyone who owns a sensor brush and claims to be happy with the results are surely liars. What a load of bull... this statement is. It's also downright insulting.

Hey, I'm done with this thread. All I can say is that when I see dust on my sensor when I shoot landscapes at F/22, and that these dust spots completely disappear after I use sensor brush, the product is good enough for me. I really don't have the energy nor the desire to convince you that all the satisfied users of the sensor brush are not lying. Oh, wait, maybe the plasma thingy somehow hypnotizes us all?!? Give me a break, for crying out loud.

Rob



Nov 23, 2004 at 03:35 PM
danks
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p.7 #12 · Sensor Brush scam


The people who have bought them and have used them are happy.

I have met folks swear that things like astrology and water divining work too. So, it does not surprise me that folks who bought these ultra-expensive brushes are defensive. I have no doubt the brushes work . . . just feel sure almost ANY soft-bristled brush would.

Man! This whole sensor cleaning business is just WAY outt'a control.

First off, in my experience, it is rarely necessary.

Secondly, it is not rocket science . . . why are so many trying to make it out to be?

How many are out there with damaged sensors/AA filters anyhow? Must be a regular epidemic.

Edited by danks on Nov 24, 2004 at 12:52 AM GMT



Nov 23, 2004 at 03:40 PM
hvr_oosterzele
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p.7 #13 · Sensor Brush scam


You guys make it sound like 100$ is the price of a Rolls Royce.

Rarely necessary?? Not if you often do macro work using up to f/25.

Admit failure? What failure??

Astrology? Water Divining? I've also had enough of this thread when they start insulting me.

Bye



Nov 23, 2004 at 03:49 PM
eeprete
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p.7 #14 · Sensor Brush scam


Chill out Rob. It's obvious you feel quite defensive about the product.

There was nothing I said that was meant to be at all derogatory, or insulting. Also, if you reread what I wrote, at no point did I call anyone a liar. I am thinking of buying a D30 just to try and do about 400 cleanings with this brush. All I said is we tend to believe more in something when we have a vested interest in. I for one have had great results with the Copperhill Method and once I got it down pat, it wasn't intimidating nor difficult. The patience factor is the biggest stumbling block with that method. If this proves to be that much better or easier, than in my eyes, it too would be worth the $100 pricetag.

Secondly I mentioned the long term effects of such a product even if it is proven to work. No one obviously knows it yet. Maybe there are little microabrasions being created, although they may not be visibile to the naked eye.

If anyone is that willing, I will go buy a D30 and if they want to donate $10 a pop, I will go buy the brushes and run the camera through 400 cleaning cycles and post the results in 60 days or so. We may only need about 50 naysayers to conduct this rather unscientific study. Even at one cleaning per week, it would take 8 years to match the 400 cleaning cycle number.



Nov 23, 2004 at 04:01 PM
sandy_est
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p.7 #15 · Sensor Brush scam


John_T. wrote:
I don't get it.

The people who have bought them and have used them are happy.


Of course they are! We all know this thing works! We just can't be absolutely sure whether it can cause damage or not.

We also don't know if the brushes are actually worth more than 10 dollars and are being sold WITH MISLEADING guidance and FALSE CLAIMS.


Those who haven't and don't are not.


Yes, we aren't. That is because we want clean sensors as well, but we aren't willing to risk damage on our sensor or we aren't willing to pay the ridiculous prices.


Who has the vested interest?


Those with vested interest don't seem to be interested in this discussion. And since we are trying to investigate whether they were fooled, that is understandable. Unfortunately, it seems that they are even trying to get the moderators to lock this thread. That would be a great shame, since this is a VERY IMPORTANT DISCUSSION. The threads about this product might eventually show us how to get rid of the dust problem ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Many have claimed that it has already happened and that is very likely true. Using a charged brush to clean a sensor might very well be the ultimate solution. We, who don't agree with Visible Dust marketing strategies and pricing, also want to find a solution so that we can be as happy as you sensor brush owners.

We are the kind of people who want to know exactly how things work, before we invest our money. That is why we want to discuss about this invention and try to figure out what it is all about.

Here is a CLEAR possibility for many photographers to save a lot of money!


I'll clean my sensor with a shoe brush if I like and it's nobody's business but mine.


It becomes our business when you post messages about it, but for the record, I would advise against that (as well).



Nov 23, 2004 at 04:23 PM
sjms
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p.7 #16 · Sensor Brush scam


jeff or fred please lock this one up


Nov 23, 2004 at 04:33 PM
sandy_est
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p.7 #17 · Sensor Brush scam


sjms:
jeff or fred please lock this one up


Sjms,

You are not the moderator here. If you don't like the discussion, you can stay away. Let the moderators do the moderation. If Fred or Jeff will read your post, then for sure he has already formed his own oppinion on whether to lock this thread or not.

This kind of civillian-moderation is certainly not going to make this place any better. If you simply can't resist your thread-policing, please send PM:s to Fred or Jeff and don't post them directly on threads.

Locking this thread would be a great shame, since the technology discussed is of great importance, but we can of course open a new thread if the moderators feel that this discussion has become impertinent.



Nov 23, 2004 at 04:47 PM
eeprete
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p.7 #18 · Sensor Brush scam


What would be the purpose in locking the thread? I for one am quite intrigued on what exactly happens with this process and would love to find out more information to share with the crowd.

I was one click away from purchasing the brush earlier today, and still may follow through.

Based upon some research by myself and a friend, we don't find Visible Dust on this list of companies using plasma technology. http://www.plasmas.org/world.htm

Perhaps they are using a plasma film depostion chamber as mentioned on one of the other pages I've located regarding plasma technology. http://www.plasmas.org/topics.htm#devices

However, I still can't find any information on a "plasma charger". If anyone else finds info, please share it. As mentioned above, I don't think the issue is whether it works or not, as it's proven to work, however the two main issues at hand here are the long term effects on the AA filter, and whether or not these same results can be achieved with an alternative brush.

Perhaps the science is not in the brush, but the process they run it through.



Nov 23, 2004 at 04:50 PM
kpiontek
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p.7 #19 · Sensor Brush scam


I would also like to add my 2 cents. I'm a scientist myself working among other things with the DNA array chips. The CEO of both Visibledust.com and the biotech company Celonex, Fariborz Rahbar-Dehghan, has not published a single paper in his life with regards to his scientific background either with the DNA array chips or the antibodies they create, not exactly encouraging. And dust and DNA having many common characteristics? Hmmmm. It sounds very much like pseudo-science. Does the brush work? I have no doubt that it does. I also think it is a simple art brush with synthetic fibers whatever brand it may be. I honestly hope they do hand inspect them (which I could also do myself under our microscope), but I share my concern with Sandy and eeprete, the serious lack of long-term impact. Take any soft brush and move it over a glass surface, you will not cause any immediate harm, yet the results will be cumulative. Has the company taken steps to ensure that it will not cause any problems? If so how? I couldn't find any information. It would be easy enough and should be performed if you make the claim. Just take the brush and move it 5000 times over the AA filter. Look at the AA filter under a microscope and you will see whether it causes harm. Has the company performed any tests to substantiate their claims with regards to safety to the AA filter? What are their guarantees? Will they pay for the replacement of your AA filter if you used their product and caused damage? I, like everybody here, would like to have a solution that works and is easy to apply, even if would cost $100, IF and here is the rub it is also safe for the AA filter. What baffles me is the people having purchased the brush are so strongly defending the product as safe to use on the AA filter without any proof provided by the company or guarantee that it would be safe long term. I would just remind everyone to be cautious. Eeprete, great idea to perform the test on D30, but then why not test a couple of art brushes, too? In short, you would have performed the test the company SHOULD have done. I go and buy a few art brushes and check them under the microscope, wash them with 100% alcohol and send the to you for your test. Maybe you want to open a company invisibledust.com and sell the brushes ;-)


Klaus



Nov 23, 2004 at 05:19 PM
gfiksel
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p.7 #20 · Sensor Brush scam


People, there is no such a thing as a plasma charger!!! I work in plasma research.
It's a high tech scum. Their site reeks with pseudo science - plasma charger, drawings that would make a 5-year old proud...

Here is my favorite from their site that, I thought, would keep anybody away, but I guess, I'm wrong in my assumption:
*******
Wooden Handle - Sensor Brush™ has a wooden handle to reduce the risk of electrostatic discharges to the sensor. Regular brushes may transfer 5000-10000 voltage charges to the sensor.
******
Wooden handle as a high voltage insulator? Why not plastic? If you require insulation then why there is that cheesy metal holder that keep the fibers together? Does a biotech company makes brushes? Or they buy them in Wal-Mart and wooden handles cost a buck less?

And what about the 10000V? If there is 10000V on the brush, why the heck you recommend sticking it in the camera?

There is thread here debating the affect of micro electric field from the lens motor on the banding. Well, if you see the banding in a few months, think whether you've been moving the 10000V brush across the AA filter.

This thread does not need to be locked. Things like that have to be exposed.



Nov 23, 2004 at 05:53 PM
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