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Archive 2017 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue

  
 
T-O Shooter
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p.30 #1 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Christian H wrote:
On the D500 all you need for bird/wildlife photography is 25-point AF-C. Rarely if ever misses the critter's eye. Fucking magic.

Christian

You only actually have one point that works on 25 point. So you're better than you thought.

Extremely good shooting, especially if the critter is a cockroach.
Jul 01, 2017 at 07:32 PM
Christian H
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p.30 #2 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


T-O Shooter wrote:
You only actually have one point that works on 25 point. So you're better than you thought.

Extremely good shooting, especially if the critter is a cockroach.

With older cameras you used to have to move the single-point thingie around to make sure you hit the eye, and even then things were a bit hit or miss. The D500 - in my year-long experience - only needs a ballpark fit to get the job done. I've no idea how it does that - faster processor? face recognition? - but I haven't had to change a thing about my focusing style. As long as the focus area is somewhere around the head it goes for the eye instead of the nose, ears, or whatever other random body part older AF systems sometimes decided you wanted to have in focus.
Jul 02, 2017 at 11:47 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.30 #3 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


It depends on the contrast of the eye area vs. other areas; if the eye has contrasty features, and background or other parts of the subject are not competing with it, this is what happens, ie. it favours the best focus target within the dynamic area if primary point is not on a good target. I guess the quality of the focus target is what one could call it. Anyway, I would expect that the lighting and animal species affect the performance, but also other factors such as how close and detailed the background is and shooting technique.

I'm happy to hear that you're getting good results.

Edited on Jul 02, 2017 at 12:49 PM · View previous versions
Jul 02, 2017 at 12:45 PM
rb_stern
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p.30 #4 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Please help - I have been shooting with a D7100 and a 300 f4PF and 1.4TC for some time - a great combo for motionless birds and large, slow BIF. But not so good for fast, irregularly moving warblers, or e.g. Swallows in flight. In AF-C and single point, or dynamic 9 or 21 the camera loses focus when a bird against a blue sky leaves the central focusing spot. I have been saving up for, and reading all the on line stuff in preparation for, a D500. Everything I have read has indicated how good the autofocus is in these and all other situations, and Steve's on line videos plus others are full of good advice - until I read this thread!

The thread is making me nervous about dropping near enough CAN3k on a camera in which the auto-focus may not be as good as it's cracked up to be. Furthermore, it's full of trolls and accusations to the extent that I don't know who is referring to what. Can someone please reassure me (or not) that the auto-focus on the D500 is significantly more accurate and faster than the D7100 for fast moving birds, IF or not, and if Steve Perry's video tutorials are wrong, what is right!

Thank you,

Richard
Jul 02, 2017 at 12:46 PM
trenchmonkey
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p.30 #5 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


rb_stern wrote:
Please help - I have been shooting with a D7100 and a 300 f4PF and 1.4TC for some time - a great combo for motionless birds and large, slow BIF. But not so good for fast, irregularly moving warblers, or e.g. Swallows in flight. In AF-C and single point, or dynamic 9 or 21 the camera loses focus when a bird against a blue sky leaves the central focusing spot. I have been saving up for, and reading all the on line stuff in preparation for, a D500. Everything I have read has indicated how good the autofocus is in...Show more →

Consider yourself reassured! I have 2 and was an EARLY adopter (read serial #xxx101)
I use Group AF 90% of the time or single point. More keepers this last year than previous
2 combined shootin' BIF/rodeo. Nothing else touches this body in that regard. Nothing.







Jul 02, 2017 at 01:05 PM
Steve Perry
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p.30 #6 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


rb_stern wrote:
Please help - I have been shooting with a D7100 and a 300 f4PF and 1.4TC for some time - a great combo for motionless birds and large, slow BIF. But not so good for fast, irregularly moving warblers, or e.g. Swallows in flight. In AF-C and single point, or dynamic 9 or 21 the camera loses focus when a bird against a blue sky leaves the central focusing spot. I have been saving up for, and reading all the on line stuff in preparation for, a D500. Everything I have read has indicated how good the autofocus is in...Show more →

The D500's AF is indeed much better than the D7100 - or any other Nikon camera other than the D5 ( that's a tie), so no worries there. The Dynamic AF modes in the D5/D500 are simply different and much of the debate in this thread is to whether that's a good or bad thing.

More to the point, I was just out in Custer Sate Park last week and I happened upon some swallows around nesting boxes. They were very busy and not too timid around people. I am in the process of reviewing the D7500 so I started with that camera - I found Group AF was about the best way to capture them FWIW. Still, the hit rate was low - as expected with that kind of target.

Out of curiosity, I wondered how the D5 (same AF system as the D500) would fare. So, I gave it a try and my keeper rate went up noticeably (again, group AF - I think Dynamic just isn't a good match for that kind of target - at least not for me). The D5/D500 AF system really is better, no question about it. Its ability to both get and keep a lock are far better than the previous AF systems.

So, I say get t he D500 and don't worry too much about it. See page 9 of this thread for how the Dynamic mode in the D5/D500 work compared to pervious cameras. Some people like it better, some not as much, for me and the subjects I shoot it's a wash - I can make it work just as well as the old system, I only need to adjust my shooting style.

Hope that helps

A few shots from the D5/D500's AF system that I know would have been more difficult to capture with the old system. Heck, the D5/D500 almost make you feel like you are cheating. (Sorry, I don't have any swallows processed yet)
Jul 02, 2017 at 01:15 PM
henry albert
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p.30 #7 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


rb_stern wrote:
Please help - I have been shooting with a D7100 and a 300 f4PF and 1.4TC for some time - a great combo for motionless birds and large, slow BIF. But not so good for fast, irregularly moving warblers, or e.g. Swallows in flight. In AF-C and single point, or dynamic 9 or 21 the camera loses focus when a bird against a blue sky leaves the central focusing spot. I have been saving up for, and reading all the on line stuff in preparation for, a D500. Everything I have read has indicated how good the autofocus is in...Show more →

I wouldn't worry about the D500. It's the best DSLR in the world not named D5, IMO. I'm not happy about the change in dynamic, not happy at all, but when my first D500 disappeared from my car a few months ago, I didn't hesitate to buy another.



Jul 02, 2017 at 01:23 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.30 #8 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


I too didn't get good results with the 9-pt dynamic on the D7100 (got a lot of shots focused on spectators instead of the athletes) and sold the camera because the D810 gave better results even if I had to crop (in the application of figure skating). I was able to use group area in the D810 for long distance shots and that gave excellent results.

I think taking off the TC when using the 300 PF improves AF results a lot. Could you try that before deciding on purchasing a new camera?

Also if it is possible to test a D500 of a friend or if a brick and mortar store has a demo unit you could try, I think it would help you get an idea of the relative performance of the camera and your existing one, with your subjects and shooting conditions. Try single point and group area as well as dynamic area.
Jul 02, 2017 at 02:15 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.30 #9 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


rb_stern wrote:
Please help - I have been shooting with a D7100 and a 300 f4PF and 1.4TC for some time - a great combo for motionless birds and large, slow BIF. But not so good for fast, irregularly moving warblers, or e.g. Swallows in flight. In AF-C and single point, or dynamic 9 or 21 the camera loses focus when a bird against a blue sky leaves the central focusing spot. I have been saving up for, and reading all the on line stuff in preparation for, a D500. Everything I have read has indicated how good the autofocus is in...Show more →

If you're a dynamic AF mode shooter as I am, the D500 may not be for you. If you can live with group, single point, and single point with a 1 sec delay if you lose that single point, than you'll be fine. I think tightening up your discipline on keeping the primary focus point on target will make the dynamic usable. I disagree with Steve Perry on his latest comment where he says the Dynamic AF is just different. It is not "just different". It doesn't work as it's suppose to.

Ken G over on DPReview got this reply from Nikon the last couple of days. This info came from the design team at Nikon is Japan. This is probably the latest, furthest up the food chain response that anyone has received. This is part of the response

"I ( Nikon USA customer service rep ) apologize for the delay, and for the confusion. According to our design group at Nikon Corp, the Dynamic Area AF function has been enhanced with the newest AF sensor, particularly for subjects moving toward or away from the camera.
Dynamic Area AF (9, 53, 72, or 153 point) does not track the subject, however it will expand the area the subject will remain focused should it BRIEFLY leave the initial focus point.
If the subject leaves the selected number of AF points, then the camera will refocus.
If the subject leaves the initial focus area and enough time has lapsed before the subject is recentered, the camera will refocus."

It says this "Dynamic Area AF (9, 53, 72, or 153 point) does not track the subject, however it will expand the area the subject will remain focused should it BRIEFLY leave the initial focus point. If the subject leaves the selected number of AF points, then the camera will refocus."
It does not do that. It does not use the extra points at all. And that is the problem. It's quite clear in the above response what it's suppose to do. If you're on D153 and you lose the initial focus point and end up on the furthest most point from the initial focus point it is suppose to remain focused. It does not. It acts as if it has left the entire cluster of points.

I was recently shooting some barn sparrows in flight in light rain and tested the D500 against the D4s. D500 group / D4s d9. The D4s was as good as the D500. Switch the D500 to Dynamic and it was useless. There's a couple of D500 images on DP.

That is not to say you can't put up fantastic images with the D500. You certainly can. And the D500, working as it should or not, will blow the D7100 away. You just need to know what you're working with and adjust yourself to what it is. If group and single point is your thing, there's nothing to adjust. If dynamic is your thing, well there is no dynamic. Settle for single point with a 1 second delay.

Nikon must believe we're all idiots if they can send out that response and continue to act as if it's working as designed. A grade 6 student could figure it out.



Jul 02, 2017 at 05:19 PM
Robert Dull
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p.30 #10 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Settle for single point with a 1 second delay.

so are you saying the camera simply stops adjusting focus?
Jul 02, 2017 at 06:23 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.30 #11 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Robert Dull wrote:
Settle for single point with a 1 second delay.

so are you saying the camera simply stops adjusting focus?


If you were using single point AF and your focus point came off the target it would immediately focus on whatever was under the primary focus point.

But if you use any of the dynamic modes and you lose the primary focus point on your original target and you have blocked shot delay set to 5 ( or whatever it's called on the D500 / don't have it handy ) you will have approximately one second to get the primary focus point back on target. 4. 3.2. etc. settings reduce that 1 sec even further. The remaining points 24 of them in D25 and so on, do absolutely nothing. So it's single point enhanced by a maximum 1 second delay. After the 1 sec ( or whatever ) the camera will focus on whatever is under the primary focus point. Workable now that Steve ( and others ) have figured out what was happening and if you're good and diligent. But you have lost the benefit of all those other points.


Jul 02, 2017 at 06:32 PM
Robert Dull
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p.30 #12 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


using dynamic 25 point,if the primary point comes off the subject does the camera simply stop focusing during the duration of the delay?




Jul 02, 2017 at 06:48 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.30 #13 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Robert Dull wrote:
using dynamic 25 point,if the primary point comes off the subject does the camera simply stop focusing during the duration of the delay?



Nikon is saying Dynamic doesn't track, so I assume they mean it's just holding the same focus distance. Which doesn't make sense as action can move quite a distance in one second. ( 40 mph = about 60' in a sec ) I have no problem with D4s / D810 or any of the other bodies I've owned retaining focus with primarily D9 mode.
But D500 does switch quickly to whatever is under the primary focus point once that maximum 1 sec is up. Every time you return to the primary focus point on target you reset the clock.



Jul 02, 2017 at 07:08 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.30 #14 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


No, it uses the auxiliary points to focus during the grace period, if the primary point doesn't see a good focus target.

I performed the following experiment in my studio. I had D5 and 70-200/2.8 in hand, AF-C with release priority, CL set to 8 fps. The target was a black light stand with a shiny metal stud at the top as the "focus target". I first focused on the target using the selected point and started walking towards the pole and while doing this I wiggled the camera to the left and right, up and down, keeping the focus target approximately within the area of the 72-point dynamic area. I kept firing the camera at 8fps.

With single point AF area mode I got three shots in focus and 34 out of focus. After I had started walking towards the target the focus never fully recovered; only once it came close (when the focus point momentarily passed through the target). So 8% of the shots in focus.

With 72-point dynamic area AF, I got 32 shots in perfect focus and 4 out of focus shots (all four were only slightly out of focus). So 88% in-focus rate. The sequence was 4 IF + 1 OOF + 8 IF + 1 OOF + 5 IF + 1 OOF + 12 IF + 1 OOF + 3 IF for the 72-point dynamic. The single AF area sequence was 3 IF + 34 OOF.

The lighting conditions were quite dim: 1/800s, f/2.8, ISO 20000.

The auxiliary points continue to focus when the primary point does not see a good focus target, within the grace period. I had blocked shot response set to 2 which is my usual setting.

I can provide the set of images if someone wants to see them but I'm not going to post them tonight. This should be an easy experiment to perform. The period of my wiggling was about 0.7 seconds so I went back and forth in the 72-point dynamic area within that period of time.
Jul 02, 2017 at 07:17 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.30 #15 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


ilkka_nissila wrote:
No, it uses the auxiliary points to focus during the grace period, if the primary point doesn't see a good focus target.

I performed the following experiment in my studio. I had D5 and 70-200/2.8 in hand, AF-C with release priority, CL set to 8 fps. The target was a black light stand with a shiny metal stud at the top as the "focus target". I first focused on the target using the selected point and started walking towards the pole and while doing this I wiggled the camera to the left and right, up and down, keeping the focus target...Show more →

They must have made one that worked right. That's not what other fellows are finding. If it were, there would be no problem and this thread wouldn't exist. Unless I'm horribly wrong.
I tested my D500 as you tested and it lost focus same as single point. Next time I get a chance I'll try it again. Quite a few photos out there showing other than what you're getting though.



Jul 02, 2017 at 07:44 PM
Steve Perry
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p.30 #16 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


ilkka_nissila wrote:
No, it uses the auxiliary points to focus during the grace period, if the primary point doesn't see a good focus target.

I performed the following experiment in my studio. I had D5 and 70-200/2.8 in hand, AF-C with release priority, CL set to 8 fps. The target was a black light stand with a shiny metal stud at the top as the "focus target". I first focused on the target using the selected point and started walking towards the pole and while doing this I wiggled the camera to the left and right, up and down, keeping the focus target...Show more →

This is correct.

When this first came up, Snapsy and I did a series of tests using shots from my D5 and D500, as well as shots contributed by several other members. We looked at the complete EXIF info using the EXIFTool (a command line text based program) and found that while the camera only reports the selected AF point, it does indeed switch to and use other AF points in the selected area for the allotted time. So, the camera does hand off AF when it loses the primary lock, but will only continue to use the auxiliary points for the delay set under Focus Tracking With Lock On (a3) - unless there is not another suitable target to lock onto (like it's against a blue sky), then it will continue to track with the outlying points. The EXIF Tool also seemed to show that the camera will continue to bounce back to and "try" the primary AF point again until it can get a focus lock.

So, like I say, it's different - and at this point Nikon says not defective. However, if it's a benefit or handicap is outside my purview on this one I still think it should be offered both ways - there are scenarios where the new system seems better and there are definitely scenarios where the old system was.


Jul 02, 2017 at 08:17 PM
brian_sp
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p.30 #17 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


T-O Shooter wrote:
[
They must have made one that worked right. That's not what other fellows are finding. If it were, there would be no problem and this thread wouldn't exist. Unless I'm horribly wrong.
I tested my D500 as you tested and it lost focus same as single point. Next time I get a chance I'll try it again. Quite a few photos out there showing other than what you're getting though.


sure wish to all hell you would take your own advise and


T-O Shooter wrote:
Give it a rest.


Jul 02, 2017 at 08:22 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.30 #18 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve Perry wrote:
This is correct.

When this first came up, Snapsy and I did a series of tests using shots from my D5 and D500, as well as shots contributed by several other members. We looked at the complete EXIF info using the EXIFTool (a command line text based program) and found that while the camera only reports the selected AF point, it does indeed switch to and use other AF points in the selected area for the allotted time. So, the camera does hand off AF when it loses the primary lock, but will only continue to use the auxiliary...Show more →

Horribly wrong I guess. I remember now that I'm seeing your post. I hate to have been giving misleading info.

However, other than not seeing the focus points, how is this different from say, a D4s? How long could you stay off primary focus point but within the cluster with a 4s and still retain focus? Any idea?



Jul 02, 2017 at 08:26 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.30 #19 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


brian_sp wrote:
sure wish to all hell you would take your own advise and



When you get charged with the decision of when I can post. Nice of you to mix two posts together.


Jul 02, 2017 at 08:29 PM
jpelt78
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p.30 #20 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue




brian_sp wrote:
sure wish to all hell you would take your own advise and




If I'm not mistaken. No one is forcing you to read the thread if you have no interest in it.


Jul 02, 2017 at 08:36 PM
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