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Archive 2016 · Could you go back to film?

  
 
Jon Buffington
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p.19 #1 · p.19 #1 · Could you go back to film?


I wear my 1958 Hamilton Automatic on my wrist and shoot with a 1952 Leica IIIf or a 1971/2 Leica M5 (or a Nikon FM, or Minolta Srt102, etc). All are older than me and all work just fine. There is an appeal to mechanical craftsmanship because of its sustainability. I used to lust after the newest DSLR, would be thrilled to have the best, only to have a new "best" out 6 months later. My old 5d which was once what everyone wanted when it came out is sorely obsolete. My 5dmkii surpassed by the mkiv. In 10-15 years, it will be a very expensive paperweight. My 65 year old Leica will be 75-80 and will still look, feel and work just as good as it did when it was new. Completely functional. Value of it will have increased as well. There is an appeal to that. I plan on passing my Leica's to my grandchildren when they are older. I don't think they will want my DSLR's.

Photography is about fun (when I am not earning cash from it). I sometimes have fun with my dslr, but I have more fun with film. So that is what I mainly shoot. If you have fun with digital (I once did), then shoot it.

As someone alluded to earlier, images are not just about critical resolution and sharpeness. There is much more to the aesthetics of an image. As Marko1953 suggested, go through the 600+ pages of the post your recent film shots thread then come back. That thread is what got me into film as the images had that "something" I couldn't get with my digital stuff.



Jan 12, 2017 at 09:17 AM
ross attix
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p.19 #2 · p.19 #2 · Could you go back to film?


I have been considering exactly that, but haven't done anything yet. Kodak announced they are bringing Ektachrome back in 35mm and movie film. Also maybe Kodachrome?

I won't get into a debate film vs digital, because digital wins on most points. But here is the thing. I have been doing photography since about 1968. First as a hobby, then for many years as a commercial advertising photographer (where shooting 4x5 was considered small format). As a hobby, which is all I do now, I miss the old days of grabbing a couple rolls of Kodachrome and the F2 and going out shooting for a day. Afterwards, drop the film at the lab, wait a few days and you're done. Print anything that looks good.

I realized a few years back that what I enjoy about photography is being outside, seeing great things, and trying to capture them in 2 dimensions as well as I can. After that, I'm done.

With digital there is so much to do after the capture. And I hate being in front of the computer. The software keeps changing, and if you don't keep up with that, your new camera's files will not be recognized. Again, this isn't about whether film or digital is better, just answering why I would consider returning to film.

Edited on Jan 12, 2017 at 07:09 PM · View previous versions



Jan 12, 2017 at 10:10 AM
George Orwell
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p.19 #3 · p.19 #3 · Could you go back to film?


PhotoMaximum wrote:
Phones look like they will continue to kill off consumer digital and film camera demand.


Complete nonsense. As already proven, film use is increasing now.



Jan 12, 2017 at 06:07 PM
chez
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p.19 #4 · p.19 #4 · Could you go back to film?


marko1953 wrote:
To all those who have bagged out film totally ...I know digital can produce technically superior images now but I am disappointed that so many on here have never taken the time to consider the other qualities that film can give. There is another thread on this forum called "Post your recent film shots", https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/658112
it has about 600 or so pages. Have a look at some of the photos on there and then come back and criticise film and then show us your superior digital images... anyone?


Yeh, the digital pixel race is all about sharpness at 200% magnification...pity. So much more to an image than sharpness.



Jan 12, 2017 at 07:05 PM
chez
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p.19 #5 · p.19 #5 · Could you go back to film?


George Orwell wrote:
Complete nonsense. As already proven, film use is increasing now.


I agree...I think phones are more likely to kill off consumer and start to eat to the prosumer digital cameras. Phones have zero impact on the film cameras.



Jan 12, 2017 at 07:07 PM
retrofocus
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p.19 #6 · p.19 #6 · Could you go back to film?


chez wrote:
I agree...I think phones are more likely to kill off consumer and start to eat to the prosumer digital cameras. Phones have zero impact on the film cameras.


With one exemption - some use their cell phones with light meter app to work with film cameras which have no internal meter. Best of old and new combined



Jan 12, 2017 at 07:17 PM
George Orwell
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p.19 #7 · p.19 #7 · Could you go back to film?


retrofocus wrote:
With one exemption - some use their cell phones with light meter app to work with film cameras which have no internal meter. Best of old and new combined


Yes, I use my iPhone as a meter for exposures that are longer than my camera's meter can handle. I like to do 2-3 minute exposures of city scenes using powerful ND filters.




Jan 12, 2017 at 08:02 PM
Shutterbug2006
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p.19 #8 · p.19 #8 · Could you go back to film?


I live in a city where all the photo-labs have long upgraded to digital and none of them process film locally. I'll know film has returned in a big way when Wal-Mart starts processing them again.


Jan 17, 2017 at 02:20 AM
retrofocus
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p.19 #9 · p.19 #9 · Could you go back to film?


Shutterbug2006 wrote:
I live in a city where all the photo-labs have long upgraded to digital and none of them process film locally. I'll know film has returned in a big way when Wal-Mart starts processing them again.


I live close by a city where this is already happening - more photo stores have a broader variety of 35 mm and medium format films available than several years ago. I just had a chat last weekend with a sales representative at Unique Photo in NJ who confirmed that a lot more people come in and buy film than years ago. It is a trend but will clearly remain a niche, but one which is growing again. Some manufacturers already recognized this and adopted - see the news about Ektachrome and Ferrania films with revival of Kodachrome rumored.



Jan 17, 2017 at 07:56 AM
mawz
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p.19 #10 · p.19 #10 · Could you go back to film?


George Orwell wrote:
Complete nonsense. As already proven, film use is increasing now.


Actually, completely true. Consumer film is all but dead, consumer digital is dying.

There's a big difference from consumer film (aka cheap drugstore film & disposable camera's) and the pro/prosumer oriented stuff that is experiencing a rebound. It's the pro stocks, albeit marketed mostly to artists & serious amateurs, that is selling.

The sole exception is Fuji's Instax line of consumer instant cameras, which are wildly popular (but aren't really film).




Jan 17, 2017 at 09:51 AM
mawz
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p.19 #11 · p.19 #11 · Could you go back to film?


Shutterbug2006 wrote:
I live in a city where all the photo-labs have long upgraded to digital and none of them process film locally. I'll know film has returned in a big way when Wal-Mart starts processing them again.


Wrong market. Film's coming back in the artist, serious amateur & niche professional markets.

Walmart sells to mass-market consumers.

The former film market is growing, the latter is pining for the fjords.



Jan 17, 2017 at 09:53 AM
PhotoMaximum
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p.19 #12 · p.19 #12 · Could you go back to film?


In early 2016 Toru Takahashi, Director, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Fujifilm's Optical Device & Electronic Imaging Products gave a major presentation about Fuji digital cameras and the overall photography market, etc.

He included some stats like the demand for photographic film(all formats) peaked in the year 2000. Sixteen years later it had shrunk to less than 1%.

In the glory years of film Kodak used to sell billions of rolls worldwide. That shrunk to a couple million before Kodak had to sell off a lot of patents and fire most of the company staff before filing for bankruptcy. Kodak is now a tiny mirror of its former self.

The uptick in film interest is welcome news but this is still a tiny portion of image creation worldwide. The news of a new Ektachrome is interesting but remember that the percentage of slide film use (pre digital) was much smaller than print film. It's strange to read about excited film camera owners saying "wow, I can dust off my old Nikons and shoot Ektachrome again" like there is no other slide film currently available? Back in the day many slide film users preferred to shoot Fujichrome.

Film will continue to get more expensive each year. The base of enthusiasts will probably pay the price. But any current increase of film use by some small segment of the photography world might not be sustainable long term. Is this a real trend or some kind of hipster fashion? Who knows? But there is going to be increased pressure on traditional camera manufacturers like Fuji. Fancy phones are killing off general film and cheaper digital camera demand. The manufacturer focus might zero in on fancier digital cameras with higher prices. If budgets get crunchy we might see the day when Fuji stops making film? It might never happen or it could end in 5-20 years? Niche market companies like Agfa might hang in there longer. Black and white, which is easier to produce, might last longer than color film.

Is there any realistic demand for new film camera development? I doubt it. Most film users are currently shooting with cameras made years or decades ago. One of the advantages for film shooters is how cheap used cameras are. Is there real money being spent on developing new scanning technology like there is with digital cameras? It's interesting that some of the popular scanners that film users deploy are also old, even old enough that you need an ancient computer OS like Windows XP to operate them.

I really hope film survives. Film use helps keep these old cameras alive. If film production really collapsed then camera repair businesses will also rapidly decline which would be a shame.

I have two 4x5 cameras, a 6x7 MF system and several 35mm film bodies. I really do not use them anymore, but this spring I would like to head out with my Busch Pressman D 4x5 and old 135 Dagor lens from the early 20th Century and see what I can come up with...

Edited on Jan 17, 2017 at 06:24 PM · View previous versions



Jan 17, 2017 at 04:16 PM
Gunzorro
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p.19 #13 · p.19 #13 · Could you go back to film?


PhotoMaximum wrote:
In early 2016 Toru Takahashi, Director, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Fujifilm's Optical Device & Electronic Imaging Products gave a major presentation about Fuji digital cameras and the overall photography market, etc.

He included some stats like the demand for photographic film(all formats) peaked in the year 2000. Sixteen years later it had shrunk to less than 1%.

In the glory years of film Kodak used to sell billions of rolls worldwide. That shrunk to a couple million before Kodak had to sell off a lot of patents and fire most of the company staff before filing for bankruptcy.
...Show more

Good write-up!

I sold my Toyo 45G monorail and Tachihara folding 4x5s, with four or five lenses, about a decade ago. Sad, but it was not of interest any longer to architectural clients. So, after keeping around unused for 2-3 years, I unloaded it.

I waited a little longer to first sell my Mamiya RB67 Pro SD system of two bodies and multiple lenses and accessories. Only this last year did I part with my much loved Pentax 67II system. I still have six lenses, flash, and other accessories to sell.

At the moment, I'm keeping a couple cheap Nikon cameras (N50 and N80) and a couple nice Canons: T90 for FD and 1N for EF lenses. Haven't shot either in over two years, so, at this time it's a sentimental connection, as I suspect most "previous" owner/users of this type of gear enjoy their emotional inertia, occasionally glancing at it on a shelf with longing.



Jan 17, 2017 at 05:12 PM
PEKA62
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p.19 #14 · p.19 #14 · Could you go back to film?


Ahem....
Excuse my ignorance, but what is 'film'?





I am an optician.
When I learned my profession in the late 80's of the last century, 90% of all lenses for eyeglasses were made of real mineral glass. There were different kind of glass materials available, like crown glas, silicate glass, flint glas (which was thinner but way heavier), and some photochomatic materials, which looked yellowish and reacted slowly.
It was very difficult to shape the lenses, always risking to break one while working with it, and fitting two lenses into a customers frame took hours if the prescription was difficult.

And then there were plastic lenses.
Someone (don't ask who, I should know it but iForgot) invented plastic lenses. In the first place they were not so good, could not have any coating, and could be scratched easily. And they were expensive. But they became better and better after time and also plastic with higher refractive index was introduced in the 90's.
Today, in my own store, we sell 99.99% plastic lenses. Only a few manufacturers do still offer mineral glass lenses. (ZEISS still does a few for example). These glass lenses usually were much cheaper than the new plastic ones, meanwhile they are more expensive because there is no more offering. In our daily business, no customer wants lenses made of glass!
Maybe once a year ONE or TWO are astonished, that we still can offer these and are still able to shape them and work with them. This is some handcrafted work, you do not find everywhere anymore.
Most younger customers (digital natives) can't even imagine how it was possible to make some eyeglasses with lenses made of real glass.



Jan 17, 2017 at 05:36 PM
PhotoMaximum
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p.19 #15 · p.19 #15 · Could you go back to film?


Gunzorro,

I know these feelings all to well. If I take a hard real look I realize I "missed the boat" and should have sold off the bulk of my film kit years ago while it still had value. But much of this stuff feels like "old friends". Every now and then I will pull out my last Pentax LX body and fire the the shutter a few times. I smile, remembering all those wonderful years we worked together. I will never sell this camera. I really loved my Pentax kit. It was an exciting time: becoming a photojournalist with a minor in commercial photography. Back when I was starting out I was an eager gear head, now I am an older gear head. !



Jan 17, 2017 at 06:42 PM
retrofocus
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p.19 #16 · p.19 #16 · Could you go back to film?


PEKA62 wrote:
Ahem....
Excuse my ignorance, but what is 'film'?



I am an optician.
When I learned my profession in the late 80's of the last century, 90% of all lenses for eyeglasses were made of real mineral glass. There were different kind of glass materials available, like crown glas, silicate glass, flint glas (which was thinner but way heavier), and some photochomatic materials, which looked yellowish and reacted slowly.
It was very difficult to shape the lenses, always risking to break one while working with it, and fitting two lenses into a customers frame took hours if the prescription was difficult.

And then there were plastic
...Show more

Two different things - one (which is your example with glasses) is a replacing innovative technology. Film is not being replaced by digital even if the majority of users use digital now. As it was mentioned now several times earlier - and it doesn't look like you read these posts - film has pros and cons versus digital. For some the pro aspects of film outweigh in specific situations the pros of digital. This is hard to find with the glass lenses of eyeglasses compared to the actual plastic ones.

There is nothing wrong only to photograph digitally. Or only with film. Or doing both. But film is very much alive even if it remains a (again growing) niche. Glass lenses of eyeglasses are a thing from the past, correct.



Jan 17, 2017 at 06:52 PM
chez
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p.19 #17 · p.19 #17 · Could you go back to film?


I've been shooting film on and off for the past 15 years...the years that digital photography became the fad. I still continue to shoot film on and off today. As long as I can continue to shoot film...it is not dead. So far...it is well from dead...especially if you look at the small freezer in the back of my basement.

The only camera that was made obsolete for me is my Canon 20D...which died a horrible death and it costs too much to repair. My 40 year old Tachihara 4x5 just keeps on trucking....

Who can honestly say their current digital camera will be alive 40 years from now...no one...and that to me is the biggest black eye on digital...it becomes scrap after a couple of generations.



Jan 17, 2017 at 07:01 PM
PhotoMaximum
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p.19 #18 · p.19 #18 · Could you go back to film?


Great point on the longevity of film cameras. Especially with a solid tank like a Tachihara!

I will offer this though. A film camera like your Tachihara will never improve. Over the years film emulsion improved but not that dramatically. Digital cameras are going to continuously evolve and improve though. What we have today is so much better than just six years ago. Ten years from now we will all wonder how we stumbled about with a primitive contraption like a a7RII...



Jan 17, 2017 at 07:27 PM
chez
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p.19 #19 · p.19 #19 · Could you go back to film?


PhotoMaximum wrote:
Great point on the longevity of film cameras. Especially with a solid tank like a Tachihara!

I will offer this though. A film camera like your Tachihara will never improve. Over the years film emulsion improved but not that dramatically. Digital cameras are going to continuously evolve and improve though. What we have today is so much better than just six years ago. Ten years from now we will all wonder how we stumbled about with a primitive contraption like a a7RII...


OH...I'd say film improved quite dramatically over the 40 years...and unlike your stuck signature digital camera...I can pop in a different type of film into my Tachihara and get a totally different look to my prints. It's like having a bunch of different cameras, depending on what film I choose to use...and yes, different film types have very much different signatures.

So yes, you can plunk down another $4,000+ and get the latest greatest digital camera that gives you something different...obsoleting your existing camera to the digital junkyard...or you can plunk down $10 and get a different type of film and use your 40 year old film camera to get a different look.



Jan 17, 2017 at 07:40 PM
PhotoMaximum
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p.19 #20 · p.19 #20 · Could you go back to film?


You can also create many different looks from custom settings or just manipulating a RAW file with a digital camera.

Over the years (since going digital) I usually skip a generation or two before buying a new body. The older body then becomes a second or third backup camera. The previously last body in the chain then gets sold. I have yet to throw away a digital body. This costs money, but then I am not paying $20 per roll of film. I use the tax deductions on my purchases, which works out nicely.

Look, there is no winner take all prize in this discussion. Some shooters are all digital, some are all film and some mix the two. I want film to survive for many reasons. All this film chatter has made me think though: I should go out there and try it again. But my personal workflow is pretty much all digital. I could not imagine doing my assignments with film now...



Jan 17, 2017 at 08:00 PM
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