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Archive 2017 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)

  
 
twoeye
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p.28 #1 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Matt Grum wrote:
Indeed - I ran the numbers on this yesterday.

It wouldn't just be limited movements - 67.2mm is huge, large enough to cover 645, and larger than you actually need for 12mm shift on full frame. Using the full image circle you would be able to get about +/- 9mm vertical shift and +/- 7mm horizontal shift on a 44x33 sensor!

n.b. the numbers in my original post were based on the image circle used at full shift on full frame.



But woudn´t the rear end of the lens cause vignetting even if the theoretical image circle is larger? Looking at the rear end of my 24mm TS-E I would think so even if I would have loved to be able to use this lens on a 33x44mm sensor.

Edited on Sep 21, 2016 at 03:22 AM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2016 at 02:41 AM
Matt Grum
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p.28 #2 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


twoeye wrote:
But woudn´t the rear end of the lens cause vignetting even if the theoretical image circle is larger? Looking at the rear end of my 24mm TS-E I would thik so even if would have loved to be able to use this lens on a 33x44mm sensor.


Apparently not - Hartblei have demonstrated the Canon 17mm TS-E with a medium format back with their HCam:

http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam2.htm
http://www.hartblei.eu/downloads/LensList-HCam.pdf

So unless the Fuji mount throat causes issues (which I doubt, looking at the pictures) then it should be fine!



Sep 21, 2016 at 03:20 AM
twoeye
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p.28 #3 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Matt Grum wrote:
Apparently not - Hartblei have demonstrated the Canon 17mm TS-E with a medium format back with their HCam:

http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam2.htm
http://www.hartblei.eu/downloads/LensList-HCam.pdf

So unless the Fuji mount throat causes issues (which I doubt, looking at the pictures) then it should be fine!


Great news, the Fuji-mount looks spacious enough!



Sep 21, 2016 at 03:21 AM
naturephoto1
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p.28 #4 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Hi Guy,

I suspect that what you may be seeeing is related to the design of the lenses themselves and not the sensor size. For a very long time Large Format lenses for 4" X 5" were expected and designed to hit their best and sharpest performance between f16 and f32 with some that would hit their best performance at f11 or f22. My suspicion is that many of the newer designed and very costly Rodenstock and Schneider Kreuznach digital lenses are designed for the largest digital sensors presently available and to perform at their optimum close to wide open or about 1 stop down to f5.6 or possibly f8. As a result these lenses would and quite possibly demonstrate diffraction at about f11. A way to test this would be to compare the performance of some of the older LF 4" X 5" lenses with some of the newer Rodenstock and Schneider Kreuznach lenses that do not perform their best until f8 and f11 with those that perform their best at f5.6 or f8 on the same camera/sensor. And yes with all of the LF and digital lenses to take advantage of the usage of tilts and swings to increase the DOF and to stay within the optimum performance of all of these lenses.

Rich

Edited on Sep 21, 2016 at 08:14 AM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2016 at 06:22 AM
IronFilm
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p.28 #5 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Ian Boys wrote:
It's not for me. I know from my year with a P645Z (now sold) that I can't hold it still enough to make the MF world work handheld and I don't like tripods. No advantage for me over a 24mp sensor.


This is why I wish someone would bring out a 24 (or even 36, but no more!) megapixel sensor which is full frame medium format!

It could have outstanding lowlight and dynamic range. (and not having the crop the 645Z has would be nice!)

Could be something like a Sony a7S sensor scaled up. (which would be 38 megapixels, sooo.. a 24 megapixel 645 sensor would have even larger pixels than an a7S!!)

Edited on Sep 21, 2016 at 07:20 AM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:14 AM
Jman13
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p.28 #6 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


People need to stop conflating softening due to diffraction and softening due to lens design at smaller apertures. They may have the same effect on the image, but they do not have the same cause. A lens with an aperture at f/11 causes the same amount of diffraction as any other lens at f/11. The amount of diffraction is based on the focal length, physical aperture size and wavelength of light. In the equation to describe the airy disk, the relationship between focal length and physical aperture size is f/d, which is also the definition for f-stop. So the amount of diffraction in a projected image is SOLELY based on f-stop and wavelength of light.

Other image degradation, that may happen due to lens design, may also happen at less than optimal apetures. (Most lens designs aren't as good at f/16 as they are at f/8, just like they aren't quite as good in most cases at f/1.4 as they are at f/5.6). You will see additional softening due to this as well, but it isn't due to diffraction. Diffraction limiting is something that is very easily calculated by simple equations about the known properties of light.

If you want to know the math behind it, look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk
Specifically, the part in Examples about Cameras has the equations as it relates to diffraction limitations in relation to f-stop.

Using this calculation, you can determine the resolution where a sensor becomes diffraction limited for each f-stop. For instance, if we look at a 24 megapixel Full frame sensor, it becomes diffraction limited (from a pure sampling standpoint) at f/11. That's where 24 MP can't be resolved, and you start softening the further down you go.

However, for a 24MP sensor in this mini-MF sensor (7.15 micron pixels), you get limited at f/14. So f/14 is where 24 megapixels becomes limited...a 2/3 stop advantage, and exactly what we'd expect to see. This Fuji will hit diffraction limitation at f/11 as well, but that's diffraction limitation on a 50 megapixel sensor, so that's where it stops resolving 50 MP, and starts going down (the further down you stop). With oversampling, the resulting resolution will also be better than the pure diffraction limitation suggests.

FWIW, the A7R Mark II hits the diffraction limit at f/9...that's where it stops resolving 42 MP of detail. However, with both shot at f/11, the A7R II will still yield a more detailed image than the A7 II due to oversampling.

Going back to format, a quick way to think of why larger formats show less diffraction at the same f-stop is to think in terms of enlargement. The airy disks are going to be the same size projected on the sensor at the same f-stop, regardless of what's behind the lens...if you take a certain image formed with that level of diffraction and enlarge it to say, 8x10, you have to enlarge the airy disks more on the smaller sensor than you do on the larger sensor, so the resulting final image will be softer on the smaller sensor when both have the same physical level of diffraction from the same aperture lens.

Edited on Sep 21, 2016 at 07:35 AM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:16 AM
Matt Grum
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p.28 #7 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


IronFilm wrote:
This is why I wish someone would bring out a 24 (or even 36, but no more!) megapixel sensor which is full frame medium format!

It could have outstanding lowlight and dynamic range. (and not having the crop the 645Z has would be nice!)


There really isn't much of an advantage at all to having fewer larger pixels when it comes to lowlight or dynamic range. Look at the current leader for DR - the D810 which beats a lot of cameras with larger pixels.

Yes noise on a per pixel basis is higher, but you can downsample to a lower resolution and it averages out. The same applied to camera shake, there is no disadvantage to the extra resolution, and you can throw it away if that's what you're into!



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:26 AM
naturephoto1
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p.28 #8 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:
People need to stop conflating softening due to diffraction and softening due to lens design at smaller apertures. They may have the same effect on the image, but they do not have the same cause. A lens with an aperture at f/11 causes the same amount of diffraction as any other lens at f/11. The amount of diffraction is based on the focal length, physical aperture size and wavelength of light. In the equation to describe the airy disk, the relationship between focal length and physical aperture size is f/d, which is also the definition for f-stop. So the amount
...Show more

Hi Jordan,

OK and Thank you. But Guy should still look at my posting above and disregard the comments regarding diffraction and read that as softening. It is pertinent to what he may be seeing and the design of older LF lenses and the newer Digital lenses to cover the newer digital sensors. He should in likelihood make the kind of comarisons between lenses as I had suggested.

Rich



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:26 AM
adamdewilde
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p.28 #9 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Fred Miranda wrote:
The numbers coincide with Sony's MF sensor, so it's very likely designed and manufactured by Sony. Perhaps through a collaboration, it's optimized with Fuji tweaks allowing them to make such statement.

I can't find anywhere more info about the focal plane shutter. Does this camera offers EFCS for this sensor size? That would be crucial for many applications. Remember the A7R shutter shock?


I guess a question for Fuji or will have to wait until it's in more photographers hands. Someone will touch on it I'm sure.



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:39 AM
Matt Grum
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p.28 #10 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


People are confusing two separate issues here, and both of them are irrelevant!

Firstly there is the amount of diffraction. This depends on the size of the hole and the focal length, and is irrelevant because as soon as you compensate for the difference in DoF, the difference in diffraction vanishes, thus all formats suffer from diffraction to the same degree in practice.

Secondly there is the point at which diffraction becomes the dominant aberration. This depends as much on the lens as it does the amount of diffraction. A very good lens will display the effects of diffraction earlier simply because the other aberrations are smaller. This is also irrelevant because it is not a disadvantage to medium format that certain lenses do this - it's not a problem with diffraction, it's a lack of other problems, which is a good situation to be in.

Hopefully we can leave the discussion of diffraction here.



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:45 AM
chez
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p.28 #11 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Matt Grum wrote:
Hopefully we can leave the discussion of diffraction here.


Amen.



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:55 AM
GMPhotography
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p.28 #12 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Jordan,

OK and Thank you. But Guy should still look at my posting above and disregard the comments regarding diffraction and read that as softening. It is pertinent to what he may be seeing and the design of older LF lenses and the newer Digital lenses to cover the newer digital sensors. He should in likelihood make the kind of comarisons between lenses as I had suggested.

Rich


Rich I already know that . Here is the bottom line. I learned this from the best digital techs from a Phase One as they have been on at least 15 workshops with me and I taught one Phase One Workshop myself. Certainly I may have my wording or definitions maybe incorrect. I'm a photographer not a scientist or math doctorate under my belt . I honestly don't give a hoot about that stuff. But what I care about is what is going on with the gear I'm working with and doing a lot of tests with these folks testing backs/ lens combinations these are the findings that we come up with. Bottom line MF digital is no picnic with the best gear in the business. Things simply start falling apart. The rest is meaningless to me. Charts and math in some of those articles are outdated and I'm not so sure any of them take lens IQ into consideration either. I spotted on one of thos average lenses. I don't shoot average anything. Anyway regardless I don't really give a hoot . I made a comment , go hammered and I hope those that enjoy putting down others enjoyed themselves because I'll never post anything again with them. I said I was out than respect that folks . I know what I know through experience and working with this stuff. I don't belong to photo clubs or have golden rocking chairs. I'm here to help if that's not good enough than I'm gone. I have better things to do as we all do. Have a great day everyone. I'm going to go make money buy the best gear I can and run into more walls to deal with. Lol

Btw this Fuji is very exciting and I'm seriously considering it. Looks very good so far



Sep 21, 2016 at 07:59 AM
Ian Boys
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p.28 #13 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:
Diffraction at f11 is the same for all lenses etc ...


I'm not sure that's the case. An 18mm at f22 has an aperture <1mm whereas a 200mm at f22 has a hole of 9mm. Quite a difference.

Or did you mean that equivalent lenses (let's say 50mm equiv) have the same diffraction on different formats at the same f-stop?



Sep 21, 2016 at 08:22 AM
alundeb
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p.28 #14 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:
If you want to know the math behind it, look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk
Specifically, the part in Examples about Cameras has the equations as it relates to diffraction limitations in relation to f-stop.

Using this calculation, you can determine the resolution where a sensor becomes diffraction limited for each f-stop. For instance, if we look at a 24 megapixel Full frame sensor, it becomes diffraction limited (from a pure sampling standpoint) at f/11. That's where 24 MP can't be resolved, and you start softening the further down you go.

However, for a 24MP sensor in this mini-MF sensor (7.15 micron pixels), you get
...Show more

There is nothing special with the diameter of the Airy Disc that correponds to the pixel pitch when it comes to sampling and resolving power. So many authoritative sites got that wrong. What matters is the distance between two adjacent airy discs where there is no longer a valley between them. If we set that limit to 9% contrast between the tops and the valley, we got the Rayleigh criterion. That is the point where we get into the territory of oversampling. For the A7r II it corresponds to around f/15.

Sorry for continuing the discussion about diffraction.



Sep 21, 2016 at 08:26 AM
Ian Boys
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p.28 #15 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Makes me glad I generally use f4


Sep 21, 2016 at 08:33 AM
Matt Grum
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p.28 #16 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)



Jman13 wrote:
Diffraction at f11 is the same for all lenses etc ...


Ian Boys wrote:
I'm not sure that's the case. An 18mm at f22 has an aperture <1mm whereas a 200mm at f22 has a hole of 9mm. Quite a difference.

Or did you mean that equivalent lenses (let's say 50mm equiv) have the same diffraction on different formats at the same f-stop?


It is the case. Yes the 200mm f/22 has a larger hole (thus less diffraction at source) but also a longer focal length (airy disk spreads out and thus ends up the same size on the sensor/film plane.

The formula is wavelength times focal length divided by aperture diameter.




Sep 21, 2016 at 08:40 AM
rbf_
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p.28 #17 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


It likely to get even murkier with Fuji's new LMO deconvolutional algorithms to calculate and then reduce/remove the diffraction effect from the final images using per lens correction data

Edited on Sep 21, 2016 at 09:04 AM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2016 at 08:41 AM
rbf_
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p.28 #18 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:
People need to stop conflating softening due to diffraction and softening due to lens design at smaller apertures. They may have the same effect on the image, but they do not have the same cause. A lens with an aperture at f/11 causes the same amount of diffraction as any other lens at f/11. The amount of diffraction is based on the focal length, physical aperture size and wavelength of light. In the equation to describe the airy disk, the relationship between focal length and physical aperture size is f/d, which is also the definition for f-stop. So the amount
...Show more

This is a major source of confusion because most discussions/article/reviews seem to label ALL image degradation as the lens stops down as diffraction. Then we end up with *two* working definitions of diffraction which can make discussing the subject very difficult









Edited on Sep 21, 2016 at 08:54 AM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2016 at 08:48 AM
Matt Grum
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p.28 #19 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


GMPhotography wrote:
I hope those that enjoy putting down others enjoyed themselves because I'll never post anything again with them. I said I was out than respect that folks . I know what I know through experience and working with this stuff. I don't belong to photo clubs or have golden rocking chairs. I'm here to help if that's not good enough than I'm gone.


I don't enjoy putting people down, nor is that my motivation - when someone posts something that is clearly technically incorrect I will point it out, otherwise the misinformation just spreads and there is a critical mass of that on photography forums already.

I do so with careful reasoned arguments, facts, and references where necessary.

You have come along, posted something contradictory and followed it up with


"I don't care what you say I know I'm right"


and subsequent appeals to authority that no-one can verify.

And now you're upset that people don't agree with you, to be honest I'm not surprised. Since you're not willing to listen to anyone else, I'm not sure what you're contributing.



Sep 21, 2016 at 08:49 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.28 #20 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


alundeb wrote:
I totally understand and agree with this point. However, we buy higher resolution cameras because we want higher system resolution. Sometimes it is interesting to know the relationship between sensor resolution, diffraction blur and system resolution. A given amount of diffraction blur will never give lower system resolution with a higher resolution sensor, but a smaller amount of diffraction blur will increase the system resolution more on the high resolution sensor than on the low resolution sensor.


Exactly correct. While I know that many reading this understand, there is a widespread misconception (perhaps based on a misinterpretation of the somewhat unfortunate term "diffraction limited", along with a misunderstanding of how digital sampling works) that images get soft sooner when stopping down using higher photo site density camera or, to put it more crudely, "you have to use a larger aperture with that higher density sensor if you don't want fuzzy photos."

I haven't had to point this out here in a while, but here is how it works.

1. Increasing photo site density does nothing to change the amount of diffraction blur in a camera system. To put it simply, there is no downside to decreasing photo site size when it comes to diffraction blur. The amount of diffraction blur in a print of a give size made from a given format is identical whether the sensor has 8 or 50 MP.

2. Increasing photo site density has the potential to produce even greater image resolution at larger apertures when excellent lenses are used. This is an advantage of higher photo site density, not a disadvantage.

Bottom line: In relationship to diffraction blur, there are no negative effects from high photo site density and there is the potential for positive effects when a high quality lens is used and other sources of blur are accounted for.

This is, of course, a different question than (though not entirely unrelated to) the relationship between usable amounts of diffraction blur and format size — or, to put it another way, how small of an aperture one will want to use on different formats. Here there is essentially no disagreement with the observed fact that one can use smaller apertures with equivalent print sharpness when photographing with larger formats. A 20" x 30" print made from a camera with a tiny sensor using f/22 will show more blur from diffraction than the same size print made from a very large format camera at the same aperture.

A simple way of visualizing this is to note that you have to magnify the original image more when starting from a much smaller format. In doing so you more greatly magnify almost every aspect of the image that affects print sharpness, including the inherent blur from diffraction.

Dan

Matt Grum wrote:
I don't enjoy putting people down, nor is that my motivation - when someone posts something that is clearly technically incorrect I will point it out, otherwise the misinformation just spreads and there is a critical mass of that on photography forums already.

I do so with careful reasoned arguments, facts, and references where necessary.

You have come along, posted something contradictory and followed it up with

and subsequent appeals to authority that no-one can verify.

And now you're upset that people don't agree with you, to be honest I'm not surprised. Since you're not willing to listen to anyone else, I'm not
...Show more

+1

Disagreeing on the basis of facts with an error that the poster insists upon repeatedly in the face of clear and well-understood evidence to the contrary is not "hammering."

I'm leaving it at that for now.

Dan

Edited on Sep 21, 2016 at 09:14 AM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2016 at 08:50 AM
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