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Archive 2016 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

rscheffler
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p.2 #1 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Lee Saxon wrote:
Man, all this time I've been trying to come up with creative ways to try to explain to people what's wrong with Leica and all I had to say was "you have to take the base plate off the M240 to remove the memory card because a proper card slot door would ruin the vintage aesthetic." If only I'd known.

Still, sounds like the SL is a very strong attempt, and I'd very tempted if it was about the price of a D810. Oh well, maybe Sony will give me an A9 soon.

naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Lee,

In the case of the M240 you also have to remove the bottom plate to replace the battery and if the camera is tripod is mounted, guess what you also have to do to remove the memory card and the battery.

Rich

Good thing the battery lasts a couple thousand clicks in optimum configuration and you can use 64, 128, 256GB memory cards... I guess everyone has different uses and experiences. For me this has been an occurrence exactly zero times.

I agree about the Sony shooting experience.

Jan 22, 2016 at 11:42 AM

Gary Clennan
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p.2 #2 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

It has most definitely not been an issue for me over the years. Not a big deal at all.

Jan 22, 2016 at 12:58 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #3 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

uhoh7 wrote:
One of these days we will see a A7r2 with the Kolari and that will be really interesting

Excellent bullet points on the three cameras.

The SL is not such a joke as DPR and many others made out in the beginning. Of course the A7 and A7r were widely trashed prior to release as well.

I predict the Leica SL will be (is) the camera that CaNikon use to base their higher end mirrorless offerings on, not Sony.

Jan 22, 2016 at 01:34 PM

zhangyue
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p.2 #4 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I predict the Leica SL will be (is) the camera that CaNikon use to base their higher end mirrorless offerings on, not Sony.

Not sure about this. I think there must be something similar in Sony's mind, A9? There is no way they give up this section. They have nothing to lose.

Seems perfect fine to me:

light, high IQ as one direction.
Strong, roburst, fast as another.

Jan 22, 2016 at 02:35 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #5 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

zhangyue wrote:
Not sure about this. I think there must be something similar in Sony's mind, A9? There is no way they give up this section. They have nothing to lose.

Seems perfect fine to me:

light, high IQ as one direction.
Strong, roburst, fast as another.

I guess I should have said current Sony FF mirrorless.

I suspect Sony will not be able to compete with CaNikon with regard to professional service and support. That may end up being their Achilles heel with an A9 if it ever shows up.

Jan 22, 2016 at 03:27 PM

uhoh7
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p.2 #6 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I predict the Leica SL will be (is) the camera that CaNikon use to base their higher end mirrorless offerings on, not Sony.

This is really impossible, since the SL probably would not exist without the success of the Sony, and is informed by it's drawbacks

There is no predicting Canikon. But we all have a good idea of EVIL potential. The Sony FE mount is a dead end in the long run, which is fine with Sony, since they will happily sell a new system. It's just too narrow. Canikon would be smart to go even wider than the SL.

But the SL is far too big for a mass market splash. And the A7 is too big for my own taste, though most seem to think it's fine: though many of these laughed at the idea of a FF nex just a few years ago.

Fuji has shown that RF look-alikes are very attractive. Canikon would be very smart to make some bodies looking like a small M6 or SP, with great EVFs and 36mp BSI sensors, but I think they will be distracted by one issue like Sony: video.

But they could have the cake and eat it with two body styles sharing a single mount, one aimed toward video and another toward stills.

The SL is a beautiful battleship in an age of submarines

Jan 24, 2016 at 02:28 AM

philber
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p.2 #7 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

I am just amazed at the difference in treatment Leica get for the "quirks" of the SL, and Sony for those of the A7RII. That shows what is in a red dot and brand name, I guess...
Meanwhile, there is zero chance that Canikon will base their design on the SL rather than on the A7 family. They see Sony as a meaningful competitor, and not Leica.

Jan 24, 2016 at 02:45 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #8 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

uhoh7 wrote:
But the SL is far too big for a mass market splash. And the A7 is too big for my own taste, though most seem to think it's fine: though many of these laughed at the idea of a FF nex just a few years ago.

Fuji has shown that RF look-alikes are very attractive. Canikon would be very smart to make some bodies looking like a small M6 or SP, with great EVFs and 36mp BSI sensors, but I think they will be distracted by one issue like Sony: video.

But they could have the cake and eat it with...Show more →

Your points back up what I said actually which is for a high end, professional (with professional service), non- mass market offering from CaNikon that is based on the larger, faster Leica SL. Such an offering from CaNikon would go after Sony exactly where they are weakest at the moment and would also leverage the huge depth of CaNikon's existing lens lines and huge installed base of professionals. This would not be about a small, light FF mirrorless offering but rather about the other attributes of mirrorless - EVF particularly- that are seen as advantageous over DSLR's. It would not replace the high end DSLR from CaNikon but rather supplement it. That will come at some point from CaNikon.

Jan 24, 2016 at 09:46 AM

Robert E
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p.2 #9 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Ranma13, thanks so much for the comprehensive look into the features of the new Leica SL. Tests like this are really revealing on its pros and cons. Having owned Leicas since the 70's it never ceases to amaze me how a company such as Leica can repeatedly "miss the boat". The are one of if not The premier camera manufacturing companies in the world, yet if you look at what they've released in the last decade, they somehow just don't seem to get it right. For what they price their cameras at, they should be near perfect in all areas. Take for instance the ridiculous price of the S2 system with its quirks of being limited to ISO 640 and less. Now we have the unattractive SL with a whole new set of quirks in an expensive high end system. I think for now I'll stick to my Nikon (gasp) D810 which can run circles around the SL. Heck, for that matter, my Fuji X-T1 and fantastic XF lenses are light years ahead of Leica at this time. So sad, for such an icon in camera history.

Jan 24, 2016 at 11:09 AM

Khun Hans
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p.2 #10 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Robert E wrote:
Ranma13, thanks so much for the comprehensive look into the features of the new Leica SL. Tests like this are really revealing on its pros and cons. Having owned Leicas since the 70's it never ceases to amaze me how a company such as Leica can repeatedly "miss the boat". The are one of if not The premier camera manufacturing companies in the world, yet if you look at what they've released in the last decade, they somehow just don't seem to get it right. For what they price their cameras at, they should be near perfect in all...Show more →

I think you are pretty much alone with your Leica trolling here. What they ' released' within the last decade made me returning to Leica. Owning the M240 and trade in my D810 against the SL soon.
If you don't have the funds for the SL is a different story.

Jan 24, 2016 at 08:18 PM

uhoh7
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p.2 #11 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

philber wrote:
I am just amazed at the difference in treatment Leica get for the "quirks" of the SL, and Sony for those of the A7RII. That shows what is in a red dot and brand name, I guess...
Meanwhile, there is zero chance that Canikon will base their design on the SL rather than on the A7 family. They see Sony as a meaningful competitor, and not Leica.

Phillipe you are so passionate in support of Sony! The Leica SL was trashed at length from it's announcement, in large part by Sony users or admirers. Not talking about you. Even Huff initially dismissed the camera. Now it's his favorite. Did you ever think the "treatment" may be a recognition that much thought from still photographers perspective went in to the design of the SL?

Of course you are right about the level of economic competition. Sony is selling alot of cameras. But Leica has shown superior design in many respects: not all.

The only company with so little sense of history they might "ignore" Leica is Sony. But I very much doubt the design teams have ignored the SL, despite the bravado of the corporate players. It's a beautiful machine, and a far more finished product than the A7r2, which is a catalogue of compromises and bad decisions built around a very powerful sensor in a reasonable form factor.

But both platforms are crippled for a complete lack of a modern lens system to support their bodies, so Canikon is likely ignoring Sony as Sony "ignores" Leica.

Neither the SL nor the A7r2 is a serious threat to the prosumer base of Canikon so far. At best they are second bodies for working pros picked either for the Leica Glass or the Sony Size.

The real money will go to the first to realize EVIL can support a smaller lighter system, with weight and size loss in both the bodies and the lenses. That would be a threat to the status quo. A compact high quality FF EVIL with a shorter, lighter 2470 2.8 that can follow focus like the Canikons. And the rest of the fast AF lens options, long primes etc, which would woo many real pros shooting weddings, war, wildlife, or sports.

Not only does Sony show no signs of making such lenses, they show no signs of being able to: they cannot consistently deliver their current lens specs. Zeiss is not really helping with lenses even heavier than the DSLR choices. They have lost the plot regarding the primacy of form factor, ignoring their own history of the great 50 sonnars. Leica has the best overall FF lenset in the world from 18 to 135, small and great, but every one is a Manual focus M lens! The SL's zoom is pretty good, but huge and not fast, plus way too expensive.

In other words, the door is wide open! I like Leica, you like Sony, but Canikon is rolling their eyes at both

Jan 24, 2016 at 10:06 PM

Khun Hans
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p.2 #12 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

First of all 'Ranma13', thanks so much for the brilliant view into the new Leica SL.
So true, 'uhow7'.
I'm in several photo societies around the world. Sony 7 is discussion Nr.1 in particular 7 RII.
But when I see the work of the majority of them I asked myself why are they discussing about their gear in the first place?
In my opinion they are not in a position to handle these giant files in way they are supposed to process.
As I sure like the new sensor and the stabilisation thing, the handling is a disaster. This Mickey Mouse sized wheel on the back of the cam is just not suitable for me.
Oh.. if you want to judge my work, just hit the www button herunder. I shoot with Canon 5DMIII, D810 and Leica M

Jan 25, 2016 at 01:28 AM

philber
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p.2 #13 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Charlie, as it happens, I do like the Sony. I lost all my gear to a thief, so I was free to start from scratch with whatever system.
Why did I choose the Sony over the SL? For the SL, better UI, better haptics and ergonomics, better quality of materials, better EVF, better with Leica M wides. For the Sony: better resolution, much wider range of adapted lenses, including with AF, smaller and lighter, 4K video, good complement of native lenses. Against the SL: only one large, heavy, costly zoom available in native mount, with only one large, heavy, costly prime promised for 2016. As a system camera for AF, the SL will take years, and, by then, Sony electronics will be ahead by a couple of iterations. As a MF platform, the Sony outshines it IMHO except if you are keen on M lenses, which is totally legit. But then, why not use a M camera?
Against the Sony: rapid model change creates low resale value of used camera when upgrading, upping the price of keeping up-to-date.
Conclusion: the SL wasn't even a close contender, whereas the M was. Unfortunately my declining eyesight makes me totally dependent on magnification to get focus. I still don't "get" the SL. It must be some form of blindness. Fortunately for you and Leica, Charlie, this disease isn't contagious...:-)

Jan 25, 2016 at 04:37 AM

rscheffler
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p.2 #14 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Why not use an M camera? I'm certainly waiting to see how the next M handles liveview/EVF tasks. If it's equal to the SL, I will (continue to) go with the M.

Does Leica get off easy for their quirks and mistakes? It probably depends on the perspective. My experience with Leica gear over the past 5 years has been that the quirks didn't significantly distract me from my work or sufficiently take away from what I like so much about shooting with Leica. On the other hand, a7 series design quirks consistently interfered while shooting, souring the experience for me, despite the great sensors Sony offers. 10-15 minutes with the SL at the Leica store felt intuitive. I could MF and nail focus without magnification. AF with the zoom was quick and positive, with the AF points intuitively easy to select with the joystick. If only Leica could add IBIS.... It's always a matter of compromises. Just pick your flavor.

Jan 25, 2016 at 10:43 PM

Gary Clennan
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p.2 #15 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

It also doesn't really need to be a "one or the other" type of mentality. I use both Leica and Sony (and Ricoh, etc). They serve different purposes and I honestly wouldn't want to choose just one system. There is no need to. However, there is no camera that I enjoy using as much as the Leica....

Jan 25, 2016 at 10:59 PM

uhoh7
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p.2 #16 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

philber wrote:
Charlie, as it happens, I do like the Sony. I lost all my gear to a thief, so I was free to start from scratch with whatever system.
Why did I choose the Sony over the SL? For the SL, better UI, better haptics and ergonomics, better quality of materials, better EVF, better with Leica M wides. For the Sony: better resolution, much wider range of adapted lenses, including with AF, smaller and lighter, 4K video, good complement of native lenses. Against the SL: only one large, heavy, costly zoom available in native mount, with only one large, heavy, costly prime...Show more →

Philippe, I am so sorry to hear you had your gear stolen

I always enjoy and respect your take on equipment

"better UI, better haptics and ergonomics, better quality of materials, better EVF, better with Leica M wides"

I think you "get" the SL perfectly well.

Why not just get a M? Well I'm with you personally on that, but I don't have a bunch of R lenses, and if I had to have just one body, my long Nikkor lenses would be great on the SL.

Pretty soon the S lenses will also be an option for the SL. Certainly not a cheap one, but to die for quality wise.

I have to thank you and Pascal for the excellent articles on Dear Susan, which have helped me understand where the A7r2 is really a big improvement: the colors.

You know of course, I'm still a regular Sony shooter. My A7.mod shoots so well I don't feel the need to upgrade at all. It's in now to get the new thinner cover, but the big snowstorm may slow it's turnaround. V1 was 1mm (vs A7 1.9mm), and this is .8, so I'm pretty excited to try it. The A7 shows really huge improvement with the mod, because the AA filter goes with the old cover glass.

In some situations I cannot tell edited files from my M9! I'm so happy to finally see the 21mm available for FE, and will be very interested to see the 18 when it comes out. But that ZM18 you brought to my attention is utterly off the hook on the M9, and the SEM 21 is even a tiny bit better. Many of us feel the M9 has not yet been bettered if you shoot at base iso and don't crop.

What's great is they are so cheap now, almost anyone can try one. The lens prices have come down a lot on the used market, except for the 75 Lux and a few others. I've lost a thousand on my 28 cron, but feel it's earned it

I rant against Sony Company because somebody has to! You know I have given them much support in the past, and my gripes are not totally without foundation. They come from my own personal experience as a user. But I treat my own Sony very nice, and for all it's faults, I love it anyway

Jan 26, 2016 at 06:32 PM

naturephoto1
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p.2 #17 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Jan 26, 2016 at 06:54 PM

Ranma13
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p.2 #18 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Here's a very short image comparison between the M240 and the SL that I posted over at l-camera-forum.com:

In all shots, left is SL, right is M240. Both were shot on a tripod with the 50mm f/2 APO at f/2, ISO 100, and 1/4000 for the SL and 1/3000 for the M.

https://imgur.com/a/wb6Oc

The 1st image of the asphalt is a crop from the lower left corner. The M shows more micro-contrast, especially in the asphalt cracks.

The 2nd image of the mud tracks is a crop from the upper left corner. The M is slightly sharper, particular around the edges of the fallen-down billboard.

The 3rd image of the roof is a crop from the lower left corner, above the asphalt. The M clearly shows better details in the roof lines.

The 4th image of the fire station sign is a crop from the lower center. You can see that the M is sharper around the words and the logo.

Overall, the SL looks the same as the M in the center of the frame, and loses slight micro-contrast and sharpness as it gets to the edges. It's small enough of a difference though that, unless the images are of the same shot, viewed 1:1 side-by-side, I doubt anyone would notice the difference.

Mar 05, 2016 at 04:32 AM

rscheffler
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p.2 #19 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

Interesting to see your results with the 50 APO. It is subtle, but I think if you had a lot of experience with it on the M240 and came to expect that degree of sharpness/micro contrast, the SL results would be somewhat disappointing, though likely only noticed by the photographer. But when you've put that much money into a lens purchase and you're shooting for yourself....

Mar 06, 2016 at 12:37 AM

adamdewilde
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p.2 #20 · Leica SL observations compared to Q and M240

The SL sensor is the worst sensor Leica has ever produced in FF format. I'm really very annoyed with the results I get from it.

I'm so glad I decided to stick with the M240 and S-006. The S is leagues better in the IQ dept. That and the M240 is still a far better sensor then the SL sensor.

I'm really not sure what to do with the SL+Zoom.. I want to keep the SL around incase the 50Lux-L is an amazing lens. Since I wouldn't want to miss out on the chance to use it. BUT the colours in the sensor of the SL are so bad that I'm starting to doubt the 50Lux-L would save it... Call me dramatic but it's just the way I feel after 3+ months of really TRYING to use the SL for work.

If I want to use M lenses, I ALWAYS grab my M-P and if i'm looking for ultimate quality and great colours I grab the S006 (I don't even have an S007 anymore).

I will put this out there though. The SL itself (body, functions, tech, AF, ergonomics, ease of use) is probably one of the best camera bodies I've used. I find it far easier to nail focus in decent light with the SL then with anything else (I'm talking about manual focus as well as AF). It's also the best camera for shooting backlit situations. And the zoom doesn't flare, or at least I haven't been able to make my copy flare enough to want to scrap an image.

My main sensor gripes are the fact that if you even ever so slightly overexpose the image your colors fade to white in a horrible manner. This means skin tones are next to impossible to get right. If you underexpose the colors get muddy and muted when bringing them back up. It's just a nightmare to use this camera in anything but the strictest of controlled environments. Higher ISOs tend to look terrible as well. And the JPGs are just crap.

I'm starting to feel like that photographsbypeter guy. Maybe I should sign his petition :P

As for the zoom. It's technically good, but boring at best. I don't mind the contrast and pop when used in good/interesting lighting. But other then that, it's boring and really just basic. The wide end suffers from having the same problems that the Q does.. Where they have to rely on digital corrections for the edges of the frame.
It's so bad that once and a while the camera glitches out and shows me more in the EVF then what I'm actually getting at the end of it. As in, if I carefully compose my shot and shoot when I load the images the edges of my frame are missing in some shots. The tele end would be interesting if it were faster. Leica needs to release some primes ASAP.

Again, maybe I'm just being dramatic but I was hoping for something special from Leica. Instead I feel as if I got a rebadged A7 with slightly better corner performance.

Mar 06, 2016 at 01:38 AM

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