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Archive 2015 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

Nonstopnick
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p.1 #1 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

I was a Nikon film shooter years ago, and will be returning to Nikon DSLR's following a very frustrating year with Pentax. I was not impressed with the metering and their auto focus is awful. I have chosen a D7200 an feel confident it will fill my needs. Where I am having issues is choosing a lens. We have a ranch where we breed sheep and livestock guardian dogs. We also show our dogs. I will need a camera and lens combo to fill three distinct roles, here are the criteria:

Ranch photos: I need a lens to take photos while we are out doing chores or hiking on the property capturing images for our web site, to send to potential buyers, and occasionally for publication in industry magazines. Most of the time we are capturing moving dogs. The focal range that has worked best is standard to mid tele range - 24-35 on the low end to 100-150 on the long end. We used a Sigma 50-150 HMS that was a bit too long on the short end, but otherwise nice. a super bright lens is not required here, but used if available. This is also the area where a sealed lens seems to make sense.

Show photos: when we go to dog shows we need a lens that can capture moving dogs (somewhat more predictable movement than ranch work) following dogs around a ring, coming at and away from the camera. most shows are outside for breed competitions and inside for group or best in show competitions. Lighting inside is your average fair grounds arena lighting; warm artificial light with open door and natural light streaming in. The distances outside are about the same range as ranch work, but inside sometimes requires us to work at the longer end of the same range more often. This an area that could use a brighter lens, or at least, be able to shoot an f4 lens wide open. 2.8 DOF on moving dogs is a crap shoot, so I may need to rely on higher ISO performance to cover the gap.

Whelping box: We need to photograph and document puppies in the whelping box, which is fairly small (8x8) and a flash is a no no for developing eyes. This needs to be wide to normal and fast enough to allow the use of ambient light. f4 may work in a pinch, but they may get grainy.

SO - These are the contenders - Nikon 24-120 f4 which has a great range, and depending on which review you read is very good to good enough on a DX format. The sample variation scares me a little because I would need to buy this one on the used market. I like that it would allow the use of the in camera corrections and should have no compatibility issues going forward. It is weather sealed to some degree and is not a complete boat anchor. I worry that it may find me wanting for more in the sharpness category and after the Pentax experience of 5-10% keeper rate, I really would like nice sharp photos.

Sigma 24-105 f4 - Range is fine ( I can crop to get the framing if I want longer) it appears to be sharp and well built according to the reviews here and elsewhere. I like the dock fine tune ability, but worry about the bugs that can arise from backwards engineering and competitive animosity. It is quite heavy and has no weather sealing of any kind. I really think if it had some sealing I would buy it. I don't go photo shooting into a rainstorm, but have got caught in a few. My main concern is dust. let me know if I am being too worried about this aspect.

I know I will need a fast prime or wide to normal fast zoom to cover the wide end, and a flash for indoor event snaps. I also plan on a longer lens like the 70-200 f4 in the future. I have also considered the Tamron 24-70, but would really like more range and it would need to be a used purchase as well.

So with all of that background crap out of the way - what the heck do I do??!!! I have rolled this over in my head so many times I feel like a zombie. If anyone has suggestions other than those above, I am all ears.

All help is greatly appreciated.

Nick

Edited on Nov 15, 2015 at 02:39 PM · View previous versions

Nov 15, 2015 at 02:34 PM

m.sommers00
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p.1 #2 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

I've used the 24-120 extensively and I like it. No experience with the Sigma sadly.

Nov 15, 2015 at 02:36 PM

Craig Gillette
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p.1 #3 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

My impression is that the Sigma is a "better" lens in reading various comments, forums, etc. But not sure in a practical sense, just how much "better." I just went through a camera purchase exercise and was looking at the D7200, D610 and D750. The D610 has a different kit lens than the D750 but the D750 comes kitted with the 24-120/4 and that combo saves some serious money over buying the lens separately compared to buying body and adding the Sigma. (It would have been almost as expensive/inexpensive to go with the D750 kit as to equip the D610 with the Sigma.) Mostly for cost reasons and my existing kit, etc., I went D7200. But it's kitted with the 18-140. But what I was wondering as you described previous lenses/shooting if you considered the crop factor (so to speak) as you selected the 24-xxx lenses as they may not be wide enough on the aps-c D7200 for your wide applications?

Nov 15, 2015 at 04:40 PM

Nonstopnick
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p.1 #4 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

Craig Gillette wrote:
But what I was wondering as you described previous lenses/shooting if you considered the crop factor (so to speak) as you selected the 24-xxx lenses as they may not be wide enough on the aps-c D7200 for your wide applications?

Yes, those quoted ranges were using a 1.5 crop factor camera.

Nov 15, 2015 at 05:00 PM

travelair
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p.1 #5 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

Don't have any experience with the Sigma. However, do have some recent experience with two examples of the 24-120 on a D800. The first was loaned to me by a friend, and to be honest, just OK. The image stabilization works well, and like the Sigma, is constant aperture, but his example was a bit softer than I was expecting. However, it was such a handy optic, that I took a risk, and plucked a used example from this group. For some reason on another, the used example I picked up is much better on my body.

I'm going to spend some time this week and try to determine if my buddies optic needs a focus offset set on my body, or a trip back to Nikon. FWIW, his lens has a much lower serial number than mine, and even the surface finish seems a little different.

I don't think the 24-120/4 is worth the 'new' price, but they show up here often in the $600-700 range. Absolutely worth it for that price.

Also, you should be able to get away with ISO 1600 with careful processing, on your D7200.

While the Sigma is a stop faster, would the corresponding drop in depth of field work for your situation?

Nov 15, 2015 at 05:41 PM

Nonstopnick
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p.1 #6 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

travelair wrote:
While the Sigma is a stop faster, would the corresponding drop in depth of field work for your situation?

The Sigma is also an f4 lens. If you are referring to the Tamron offering; I have to admit that while the 2.8 aperture could be an advantage while shooting stationary pics at a show, I'm afraid shooting a moving object in focus at 2.8 may be beyond my personal capabilities.

Nov 15, 2015 at 06:30 PM

Donzo98
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p.1 #7 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

I would take a look at the Nikon 24-70.... the NON VR version can be had for 1200ish depending on condition.

The new VR version is great... but VR won't be useful in the situations you described above. The AF is very good on both versions. For shooting moving dogs I would want the best possible AF. The new version has faster AF by all accounts... but is very expensive.

FYI... I bought the new version... but I really wanted VR.

Nov 15, 2015 at 06:51 PM

Birdbrooks
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p.1 #8 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

Check out the Sigma 24-105 Art thread(s) here in the Nikon forum on FM. I'm a big fan of this lens, and others will attest to that... It has been a joy for me, tack sharp at all FL and with wonderful O/S (stabilization) for hand held shooting. I use mine on the D810 body; sharp and detailed images consistently.

Edited on Dec 12, 2015 at 06:53 PM · View previous versions

Nov 15, 2015 at 09:16 PM

John Skinner
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p.1 #9 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

I don't know if we're speaking of the same lens I bought originally with my D1x some years back, but... That 24-120 DX (which I thought would have been a godsend) turned out to be so dam soft -- I couldn't use it.

I never had 1 sharp image off of that glass... So unless it's another 24-120 DX model, I'd be running away.

Nov 15, 2015 at 10:08 PM

Palmguy
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p.1 #10 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

John Skinner wrote:
I don't know if we're speaking of the same lens I bought originally with my D1x some years back, but... That 24-120 DX (which I thought would have been a godsend) turned out to be so dam soft -- I couldn't use it.

I never had 1 sharp image off of that glass... So unless it's another 24-120 DX model, I'd be running away.

The OP is referring to the 24-120 f/4, which is newer than the lens you're referring to.

Nov 15, 2015 at 10:13 PM

johnctharp
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p.1 #11 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

If you need the range, then it's a tossup between the 24-105/4 OS | A and 24-120/4G VR.

The Nikon lens is smaller, lighter, has more range, and is cheaper; the Sigma will have the edge in image quality, particularly on 24MP DX.

And that's about what it always comes down to- flexibility or image quality. Flip a coin!

Nov 15, 2015 at 10:45 PM

Nonstopnick
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p.1 #12 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

Is the image quality that much better on the Sigma with a 24 mp sensor or are we talking about uber enthusiasts splitting hairs at 100% magnification?

The other issue between the two is sample variations. It seems as though the Nikon suffers from a larger range of great to mediocre than the Sigma, or it could just be there are a lot more Nikon units in distribution. Since the price of the Nikon would force me to buy used, this is a big concern for me. I could get the Sigma new with a warranty for the same or a touch more than the Nikon used.

The Nikon eliminates several of my worry issues, ie compatibility and support, weather sealing, less weight, cheaper filters and in camera correction for when my wife is shooting jpeg.

I must admit, on paper, the Nikon checks more of my boxes, but the pictures I've seen from the Sigma have really caught my attention.

Which of the two lenses would perform better at f4 on DX?

Nov 15, 2015 at 11:48 PM

Todd Warnke
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p.1 #13 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

I had a friend lend me his Sigma and his 24-120/4 and I shot it off against my 24-70. In short, after that I needed a travel lens and bought the Nikon.

In my comparo the Sigma and the 24-120 each had areas where they were better than the other but neither had enough wins to be a clear winner. For me, the Nikon is lighter, took 77mm filters and had weather-sealing, and it typically had better edge to edge sharpness than the Sigma (which had better center sharpness and a touch better contrast). Yes, the Sigma is built like a tank, bit it weighs like it as well. So in the end the Nikon was the one.

Now, after taking it on a family trip to Amsterdam, Rome and London, I am even happier with it. AF, even inside St. Peters and the like, was fantastic. Sharpness was beyond what I had hoped for, and the VR was a life-saver. I have hand-held 1/10 shots in St. Peters that look like they were on a tripod. So, if you are leaning the Nikkor way, count this a vote in support.

Peace,

Todd

Nov 16, 2015 at 12:56 AM

sjms
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p.1 #14 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

are you looking for a tele lens or an all around walk around lens? on a DX body a 24-120 is equivalent to a 36-180 where I use a 17-70 and now a 16-80 DX.

my D7000 now D7200 kit is a tokina 11-20/2.8 DX, Nikon 16-80/2.8-4 or sigma 17-70/2.8-4 DX and sometimes a 70-200/2.8 FX

shooting in Japan 2weeks ago 98% of shots were with the 17-70 DX

it delivered shallow DOF when needed.

Nov 16, 2015 at 01:12 AM

Uzay
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p.1 #15 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

i had both and i vote for siggy

Nov 16, 2015 at 03:12 AM

chuhsi1
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p.1 #16 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

i still wonder if f4 will cut it for you. When inhale a d7000, I lived with a 24-70. On DX, it was the perfect focal length for me. And it was 2.8.

I had and sold the 24-120. Nothing wrong with it. Just didn't like not having f2.8 for my low light and action shooting. But for $600 used, it's an excellent deal.

Nov 16, 2015 at 03:28 AM

sjms
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p.1 #17 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

chuhsi1 wrote:
i still wonder if f4 will cut it for you. When inhale a d7000, I lived with a 24-70. On DX, it was the perfect focal length for me. And it was 2.8.

I had and sold the 24-120. Nothing wrong with it. Just didn't like not having f2.8 for my low light and action shooting. But for $600 used, it's an excellent deal.

D7000 w/24-120 f4

I had the 24-70 and after getting the 24-120 it sat in my tool box for a long time. Then the time came and it was sold. I really don't miss it all that much 2.8 and all.

Nov 16, 2015 at 07:03 AM

Nonstopnick
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p.1 #18 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies. Sims; this will be a task drive lens as stated above, and it will be my walk around for now, as I know I will be wanting on the wide end. The 16-80 has interested me quite a bit, there just doesn't seem to be a consensus yet. Your thoughts on it would be greatly appreciated.

Todd; you are swaying me.....

Nov 16, 2015 at 10:20 AM

sjms
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p.1 #19 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

my thoughts are simple going to the sigma 17-70 is a great lens at a great price. the 16-80 is a hair better with it being a hair wider and longer in focal length. but, it is 2.5x the price. the shutter assy is the future.

98% of these below were shot with the 17-70 sigma C lens

https://sjms.smugmug.com/Trips/Japan-for-a-few-more-days/

yep a task driven product it is.

Nov 16, 2015 at 10:37 AM

travelair
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p.1 #20 · Sigma 24-105, Nikon 24-120 or ?, Please help with lens selection

Just checking back in regarding those two examples of the 24-120. Did a 'shoot off' with my D800 mounted on a weighted camera stand, mirror up, remote release, VR off, AF off, and in camera distortion correction off. Subject was a pair of scientific posters mounted to our lab wall. Camera position was moved such that both poster completely filled the frame at the focal lengths tested (24, 35, 50, 85 and 120). Focusing was manual, in 10x live view.

As I initially surmised, my buddies example is significantly softer than mine. As noted in several online reviews, on an FX camera, it is rather soft, in the far corners, wide open. At all focal lengths, the center was acceptably sharp from f/4.0 on, but much better at f/5.6. Both were better at the wide end, than the long end. For best effect, in the future, I will try to shoot mine at f/5.6 or above, from 24-85mm, and f/8.0 or higher, above 85mm.

Both copies were geometrically horrible with the in camera distortion off. At the wide end, barrel distortion is laughably obvious. It hits neutral somewhere between 35-50, and then steers strongly into pincushion distortion. Assume you will need post shot correction if shooting RAW. Haven't spent much time shooting jpgs with my new to me D800 to ascertain if the in camera correction is good enough. Don't know if turning the in camera correction on changes the RAW files either (anyone)?

Long story short, on a DX body, I would consider my example good-to-excellent, and my friends copy fair-good. FWIW, the last five digits of my lens serial number are a bit above 21,000, while that of my friends, is a little below 6,000. Without testing more examples, it would be difficult to confirm if quality control on these improved with serial number.

Also, I ran the same tests on a 60/2.8 AF-D micro, and a Tokina 100/2.8 macro, that we use here in the lab. Both of those lenses were superb, from a geometry standpoint. The 60 was not sharp in the corners wide open, but was better than the 24-120, at f/4.0 and above. It still took f/5.6 to reach critical sharpness, corner-to-corner. To be honest, I would have been surprised if this was not the case. The Tokina was simply amazing, at f/4 and beyond.

Don't know if that helps at all. I'm pretty happy with my copy of the 24-120, and will use it for general family shots and casual shooting. If I'm reaching for maximum image quality, I'm likely to use one of my fixed focal length options, including some of my older MF glass. Will likely try to start acquiring examples of the newer f/1.8 G FX lenses too. The 35/1.8 DX G lens would be a great, inexpensive addition to your kit, if you don't already have an example.

Whatever you purchase, try to have the option of a return if it does not pass your personal quality test.

Nov 16, 2015 at 04:18 PM

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