p.4 #1 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Natron wrote:
Also FYI, his story apparently DID make a Seattle newspaper that someone I know remembers reading at the time.
Umm...yes, but that bogus news story I referred to made a national television news broadcast. Just because something makes the news doesn't mean it was fairly, or even accurately, reported.
Do you know which paper in Seattle? It might be interesting to search their online archives and see how they dealt with it. I wonder if they at least put in a call to the law enforcement agencies to allow them to give their side of it.
Once again, though, please understand that I'm not necessarily doubting the events. I'm a product of a generation that drafted young men to fight and die for their country but told us we weren't old enough to vote for (or against, as the case may be) the politicians that were sending us over there. I'm also old enough to remember the infamous police riot in Chicago during the Democatic National Convention, Watergate, etc. And on the flip side, I'm also old enough to have witnessed many positive social changes that very few other nations would ever dream of letting happen.
My point being that, yes...I do believe there are times when authority powers in this country have been misused and abused...but that still doesn't change the fact that if we as a people are to retain our ideals of fair play, we owe it to ourselves to at least ask simple questions regarding the accuracy (to say nothing of fairness in getting the other side's story) of such reports floating around on the net before we point the finger of condemnation.
p.4 #2 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Taz wrote:
Umm...yes, but that bogus news story I referred to made a national television news broadcast. Just because something makes the news doesn't mean it was fairly, or even accurately, reported.
Oh oops! I was referring to someone above who said he should contact newspapers. I was just saying that his story actually did make newspapers, that's all.
p.4 #3 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Natron wrote:
He showed his ID to every law enforcement official who asked for it. It's against the law for ordinary citizens who aren't legal authorities to demand to see your ID (ie: security guards). He did exactly the right thing, legally and morally.
I'd have to disagree with you there, if its against the law for an ordinary citizen to ask for id then I need to call the cops on every department store I use my credit card in as most ask for ID to prove its my card.
I would really like to see that WRITTEN law somewhere.
An ID simply does what it says, IDENTIFIES yourself and proves you are who you say you are. Its a simple thing, there isnt an automatic watch list that everyone that gives over thier ID for inspection goes on like this writer seemed to be scared of. Its just an ID that could have put much of this to rest.
Again, I dont defend HOW the autorities did their jobs in this situation, sounds like it could have been done better, but I dont judge them for DOING their job.
What I dont understand is how anybody can possibly argue or believe that their ability to take a PHOTOGRAPH could or should be more important than being prudent about the situation that the US and other countries are now in.
I understand the mentality that some have and are afraid of our rights being infringed upon, but where and when we can take photos is so far down the list in my eyes that it shouldnt even be an issue. They arent putting taps on our phones, they arent putting cameras in our homes, and they arent rounding people up off the street. They are asking people to ID themselves when taking photos in sensitive areas.
I know somewhat what it is like, before 9/11 I was a young college aged guy in a hot lowered and modified VW, long before it was as popular as it is now. I dont know how many times I was approached by cops or had them come up behind me and run my tags. I could be going down the road and see them come up behind me and start typing on their little computers, they always left me alone because I was not doing anything wrong and my car was my car. But I was being profiled and singled out. I was being looked at, I was questioned at times and asked for ID to prove it was me in my own car, and I was a target at times.
But you know what? I didnt care. I had done nothing wrong, it was a minor inconvenience and I was actually GLAD, because it told me they were doing their jobs and if my car was stolen it made me believe that I might actually have a chance to get it back. If they were checking on it regularly, then there might be a chance they would find out it was stolen if it was. In my eyes, they were actually helping and protecting me. So I am ok with this and how it happens. Beyond them taking me downtown to find out, I didnt feel violated.
C'mon folks, have a little understanding for what they are going through and what they are doing to try to protect you and me.
I will repeat something from earlier, I cant help but believe that most of those bitching about rights now would be the same ones crucifying the authorities if something were to happen again.
p.4 #4 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Taz wrote:
I've read this entire thread and I am absolutely amazed that no one has addressed the question Bill raises here. Like Bill, I can easily visualize how this could happen; however, in the spirit of fair play it would seem only right to see the story cohoberated (sp?) before joining this feeding frenzy on how terrible our "government" has become.
Taz - i did address this point several pages ago - i am not going to rehash it again here - translation ... reread. This person who posted, if memory serves correctly, was a Dpreview member and posted his story on dpreview. THen he came up with his site and wrote it all out at the request of several other members who said he shoudl "organize it."
And as far as this discussion goes, i implore you to keep your comments closely attached to the original photography story and not get to far removed from it, or i guarantee one of the mods will certainly lock this thread.
p.4 #5 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
9/11 wasn't a failure of the cops to hassle people on the streets with cameras. It was a collective failure of intelligence agencies to talk to one another. Many of the hijackers were operating within our borders using their real names, were known/suspected terrorists, and were engaged in highly suspicious activities that were reported as far up the chain as possible.
Reading the 9/11 Commission Report, I can't believe that a lowly security guard shaking down people for taking pictures might have prevented those attacks. The problem was and is systemic, but I suppose the immediacy of locking people up on suspicion and/or challenging everyone's right to be anywhere at anytime makes us all feel safer somehow. Boy, you sure wouldn't know it, though. We are about as freaked out a nation as they come.
I dunno... fear, fear, fear. Buy, buy, buy. Eat, eat, eat. Fear, fear, fear. Say, whatever happend to the 4th and 6th amendments? Ooooo... new SpiderMan movie. RAWK! What was I saying?
p.4 #6 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
vwpilot wrote:
I'd have to disagree with you there, if its against the law for an ordinary citizen to ask for id then I need to call the cops on every department store I use my credit card in as most ask for ID to prove its my card.
Are you serious? You have to show police officers your ID when asked for it. You do not have to show anyone at department stores your ID. If you don't want to, you don't have to. You won't get your merchandise but you won't be arrested or fined either. You may want to think this through a bit more...
That aside, the fact is still that this thread was started because I find it serious that photographers are many times singled out and treated unfairly for their hobby. I'm glad to see some support and understanding from others in this thread.
vwpilot wrote:
I know somewhat what it is like, before 9/11 I was a young college aged guy in a hot lowered and modified VW, long before it was as popular as it is now. I dont know how many times I was approached by cops or had them come up behind me and run my tags. I could be going down the road and see them come up behind me and start typing on their little computers, they always left me alone because I was not doing anything wrong and my car was my car. But I was being profiled and singled out. I was being looked at, I was questioned at times and asked for ID to prove it was me in my own car, and I was a target at times.
But you know what? I didnt care. I had done nothing wrong, it was a minor inconvenience and I was actually GLAD...Show more →
Hardly relevant to this situation though, really. That would be the equivalent of an officer walking past him, asking "so what are you up to today?" and then moving on. What would have been the equivalent to his experience in your situation would have been if the cops had stopped you and had you step out of the car, had you place your hands on the hood, called 5 or so other officers in as backup, they all surrounded you, they asked if the car was stolen, accuse you of illegally modifying the car, telling you you broke traffic laws by not having factory wheels or springs which would be an outright lie, repeating that someone matching your description had stolen a car in NYC once a couple years back so they have a right to stop and question/accuse you, etc etc.. and then finally let you go without anything more severe happening because, obviously, you did nothing wrong. THAT would leave a sour taste in your mouth and I doubt you'd be glad they were so careful with their dealings with you.
I think many here enjoy their hobby and just don't want to be frightened to walk out the door to try to enjoy taking artistic photographs for the afternoon.
Oct 04, 2004 at 10:58 PM
sippinsoma Offline • • • [X]
p.4 #7 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
p.4 #8 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Lovely world we live in.
You said it. :|
Oct 05, 2004 at 12:34 AM
Guest Offline Guest
p.4 #9 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
As my Dad said "Wonderfull world except for the people"
Oct 05, 2004 at 12:59 AM
Ricardo Maui Offline • • • • • [X]
p.4 #10 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Gerry Kerr wrote:
As an outsider (to the US) who has lived in a state where terrorism was prevalent (Northern Ireland) you guys are on a slippery slope where rights are ever so slowly eroded until you wake up one day and find that the cure is far far worse that the original disease.
There is a very thin line between democracy and totalitarianism.........
Gerry
democracy?......hehehehe.....
I have more freedom in Argentina, Spain,.............shhhhhhhhhhh etc!
p.4 #11 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
If you are unhappy, either move or spend more time in a voting booth.
Complaining about it on a photography forum won't fix what ails you.
If you feel the need to drag out your political soap box please find a more appropriate forum (...and feel free to e-mail me a link to the topic so I can come over there with my own soap box).
But here we need to stick to the photographic topic at hand.
-Steve
Oct 05, 2004 at 01:18 AM
Mthorpe_Davies Offline • • [X]
p.4 #12 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Wow i wonder what the Homeland Security dudes would have thought of me taking photos of the USS Regan, Nimitz and Lincoln in San Diego from the flight deck of the Midway. I got some great shots with a couple of Americas Cup yachts in the forground. I'm glad i don't live in a police state!
Oct 05, 2004 at 02:07 AM
Ricardo Maui Offline • • • • • [X]
p.4 #13 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
smaug wrote:
If you are unhappy, either move or spend more time in a voting booth.
Complaining about it on a photography forum won't fix what ails you.
If you feel the need to drag out your political soap box please find a more appropriate forum (...and feel free to e-mail me a link to the topic so I can come over there with my own soap box).
But here we need to stick to the photographic topic at hand.
-Steve
but the poster is talking about photography freedom.............funny!
You can mount a tripod in Iraq... I mean downtown BAGHDAD or a mortar granade propeller if you wish.........).......thanks to us. (USA)
p.4 #14 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
The guy brought his troubles on himself with his attitude. The best way to attract the attention of the law is to act like a criminal and pull an attitude. My favorite "Cops" episode was from a few years ago in St Louis, MO. it's 3:00 AM and the officers are on patrol in a bad neighborhood. As they're driving down the street, a guy walking down the sidewalk pulls a gun out of his pants, tosses it into some bushes, and takes off running--on camera. So of course the officers stop the car, get out, and chase the guy down, and it turns out he's a convicted felon with a gun and several outstanding warrants. But if he'd just kept walking down the sidewalk when the cruiser drove by, nobody would have paid any attention to him. The only reason the cops and the camera gave him a second look was because he tossed the gun and took off running.
People who act guilty usually have a good reason for doing so. The police can't afford to ignore that basic trait of human nature if they expect to do their job very well. If you don't act like a criminal, you're a lot less likely to be treated like one. The best thing to do is to be polite and cooperative; the worst thing to do is to is to be defiant and attitudinous. Even if you're technically within your rights.
Oct 05, 2004 at 03:20 AM
Ricardo Maui Offline • • • • • [X]
p.4 #15 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
jonwienke wrote:
The guy brought his troubles on himself with his attitude. The best way to attract the attention of the law is to act like a criminal and pull an attitude. My favorite "Cops" episode was from a few years ago in St Louis, MO. it's 3:00 AM and the officers are on patrol in a bad neighborhood. As they're driving down the street, a guy walking down the sidewalk pulls a gun out of his pants, tosses it into some bushes, and takes off running--on camera. So of course the officers stop the car, get out, and chase the guy down, and it turns out he's a convicted felon with a gun and several outstanding warrants. But if he'd just kept walking down the sidewalk when the cruiser drove by, nobody would have paid any attention to him. The only reason the cops and the camera gave him a second look was because he tossed the gun and took off running.
People who act guilty usually have a good reason for doing so. The police can't afford to ignore that basic trait of human nature if they expect to do their job very well. If you don't act like a criminal, you're a lot less likely to be treated like one. The best thing to do is to be polite and cooperative; the worst thing to do is to is to be defiant and attitudinous. Even if you're technically within your rights....Show more →
with so many under cover police around DC........anyone is a target!
even if you look way normal might be the worst......come on!
this administration wants to scare people....because....got nothing better to do after 9/11.....)
Thanks to the leader we got stuck on the wrong place when we should be looking for Osama!
p.4 #16 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
ent2b wrote:
Taz - i did address this point several pages ago - i am not going to rehash it again here - translation ... reread. This person who posted, if memory serves correctly, was a Dpreview member and posted his story on dpreview. THen he came up with his site and wrote it all out at the request of several other members who said he shoudl "organize it."
And as far as this discussion goes, i implore you to keep your comments closely attached to the original photography story and not get to far removed from it, or i guarantee one of the mods will certainly lock this thread....Show more →
Sorry, ent2b, but I'd already read your comments so no need for a re-read. However, your argument that we should just "trust" anything that someone throws up on some web page as being truthful somehow didn't register as meaningful comment. My apologies.
As to your plea for keeping the comments closely attached to the original photography story...I think that's precisely what my posts did. At the very least, they were certainly no further off than your own. However with that said, I too share your concern that this thread could degenerate into a heated partisan political exchange that would add little to the discussion of photography. However, at least so far, the discussion has been fairly enlightening.
p.4 #17 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
I agree that we have to be careful not to let this "degenerate into a heated partisan political exchange" (quote from Taz). The law enforcement and security personnel that we have contact with on the street level are the same ones who were out there when we had a democrat for a president and will still be out there when we have our next president, be that a democrat or republican, it matters little to the officer on the street. Just like our general population, the people in the law enforcement field range from very good to very bad. Its the luck of the draw as to who you will get when you have contact with law enforcement. Have you seen Chris Rock's bit on how not to get your a** kicked by a cop? I think its extremely over the top (funny also) but it does have some points that we should take home. We can make a difference in the outcome of the incident by our attitude at the time. A routine contact can blow up to much, much more solely on the type of response given when questioned. Answer truthfully and respectfully and expect the same back. If not, every person out there has a boss (although I wouldn't demand the bosses name from the person who is questioning you). And every boss out there has a boss (up to and including the president as we will demonstrate by voting in November). At the scene that Officer is THE boss and arguing or disagreeing with his/her orders has little chance of a positive outcome. Step back take a breath, let the incident de-escalate and then let your fingers do the walking, we have rights and if they are violated by some law enforcement type then by all means fight for those rights, I for one do not ever want to lose any of those rights.
p.4 #18 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Well... the officers on the street are actually different from the ones on the street when a dem was in office. Though Bush fought the creation of the DHS, it is nonetheless his baby, and is responsible for at least a perception that policing methodology has changed radically.
Additionally, and maybe more importantly, law enforcement and intel folks of all ilks (FBI, CIA, FHS) have been given far greater leaway (vis a vis Patriot Acts I & II) to do whatever they deem necessary to thwart further attacks, and I'm sure that includes empowering the folks on the street to do the same.
A security guard on the street may have done no more than hassle a kid on skateboard four years ago. Now, we photographers have to be careful (esp. in light of the recent arrest of the guy filming Baltimore's Bay Bridge) , as anyone paying "undue" attention to anything is a potential terrorist. Sad.
p.4 #19 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
People LOVE assesing blame...makes them feel better about themselves; makes them feel safe. I see a non-white guy with a camera = must be plotting something...give me a break! CNN really enjoys showing you the dark side of the world...always refering to the "Muslim World" as a distinct, non ethical, extremist "world"...give it up! I have friends of various cultures and religious backgrounds; Jew, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist; black, white, arab....Folks, just cause someone is different than you does not meen that they are out to get you! We've got to change our mentality or the world as we know it will self destruct in no time. Peace
p.4 #20 · Please read this photographer's horrible story:
Coming from Russia and living in US now I have to sadly agree with Gerry. Since September 11 I have watched with quite horror how people are unthinkingly willing to give up their rights and their freedom for a bit of perceived security. It seems that too many Americans fail to truly appreciate what make this country great ….
Are you serious? You have to show police officers your ID when asked for it. You do not have to show anyone at department stores your ID. If you don't want to, you don't have to. You won't get your merchandise but you won't be arrested or fined either. You may want to think this through a bit more...
).......thanks to us. (USA)