This topic is in the 2015 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2015A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
p.9 #1A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
sebboh wrote:
Sony FE lens designed for digital sensor ~1.85mm glass stack thickness
The modified A7x is somewhere between - and so the results on this modified cameras are not clearly better with a lens that is designed for film than with a lens designed for digital. The influence of rangefinder or SLR design are much more clear.but the modified camera clearly should be better with a lens designed for film (such as leica R lenses) than the unmodified camera with the same lens designed for film, which is what steve and i were saying.
This way yes.
I was answering with naturephoto1s question in mind with his Leica R lenses behavior on A7 unmodifed to A7 modified - there will be nearly no effect due to SLR design and slow f-stop. But yes they will be slightly better on the modified camera.
ZoneV wrote
Lens designed for film = 0mm glass stack.Sony FE lens designed for digital sensor ~1.85mm glass stack thickness
The modified A7x is somewhere between - and so the results on this modified cameras are not clearly better with a lens that is designed for film than with a lens designed for digital. The influence of rangefinder or SLR design are much more clear.
This way yes.
I was answering with naturephoto1s question in mind with his Leica R lenses behavior on A7 unmodifed to A7 modified - there will be nearly no effect due to SLR design and slow f-stop. But yes they will be slightly better on the modified camera.
Jan 30, 2015 at 12:04 AM
p.9 #2A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
uhoh7 wrote:
could you elaborate on the focus issues? I'd better check mine, though I rarely use AF, I do want my LAEA4 to hit with 70400G if possible.
Unfortunately, though a fan of the lens on the nex-5, I never did get one.
The M9 does not seem to love it, at least that's what I hear. But the new version may be a new story
The relevant lenses I own:
ZM18
SEM21
28cron
ZM35/2
If the SEM 21 really gets good, then I would expect the other three in this list would also.
Lenses I don't expect to fully recover, but will try:
CV 21/4
CV 35/2.5
It's going to be very interesting to see the CV 35/1.4, which has a funny romance with the thick CG, but still is not as we would hope, and the usable 40cron could get alot better too. I also have them.
Another one will be the Canon LTM 50/1.4, which the M9 really loves, but the A7 series much less so.I will be really interesting to see how your lenses perform. I expect colour shift to remain on the ZM 18, but the 21 SEM and the 28 cron to do well. I expect the ZM 35 to be close to the Loxia 35 on an unmodified camera. I am looking forward to seeing your results.Hi Steve,
I am not nearly as sure as you are about the M 28mm Summicron or for that matter, the M 28mm Elmarit. lens either. As I recall they were dismal for their performance on the stock A7/A7r cameras. We will have to wait for Charlie and others to check in on this with their modified A7/A7r cameras.
RichHi Rich/Steve/Charlie
Lloyd has tested the 28 Elmarit Asph with the A7rM versus the stock version. The test results for the 28 Elmarit are excellent, in that by f/8 the elmarit delivers a high grade image and further improves by f/11. From the test results there is no way I would use the Elmarit on the A7r stock. On reviewing the results, IMO I would in many instances use f/2.8 and 4 for street photography with no issues. The 28 Elmarit is a wonderful light lens and I really think if you have the lens, it will be very usable with the A7r M.
I would not purchase the lens myself again, and I feel the 28 Cron Asph will perform even better with longer exit pupil distance. Maybe 28 Elmari V3
Charlie,28 Elmarit v3 would be amazing, as it is a Mandler designed lens. I suspect this lens would really shineThe v3 is pretty great on the existing filter stack (a7/II anyway), so I imagine you're absolutely correct.I can't agree. I don't doubt it can make some fun images closer in, but at infinity, with distant objects things are pretty disappointing on the edges.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2810/11213475035_e075814773_b.jpg
DSC01880 by unoh7, on Flickr
if you open the full compare this f/8 image edge trees on first ridge with houses in center frame. To be fair, even on M9 this lens needs to stop way down for great edges. The 28 cron kills it in that way.
I thought, with A7r I might escape this with SLR glass, but my FD 35/2 SSC thorium, at f/8 showed me all sorts of strangeness.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3700/11429263613_10edfcda02_b.jpg
DSC04369 by...Show more →
I only have to stop down to f/5.6 to get good edges on the a7 or II.
a7_Elmarit-M28_CC_1 by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
a7_Elmarit-M28_Spell_on_You by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
I do like using it closer, though that's usually where I see some color issues at the edges, particularly if I'm off-axis.
a7_Elmarit-M28_Deadpool_1 by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
freaklikeme wrote
charles.K wrote
naturephoto1 wrote
Steve Spencer wrote
uhoh7 wrote
@Michaelcould you elaborate on the focus issues? I'd better check mine, though I rarely use AF, I do want my LAEA4 to hit with 70400G if possible.
Unfortunately, though a fan of the lens on the nex-5, I never did get one.
The M9 does not seem to love it, at least that's what I hear. But the new version may be a new story
The relevant lenses I own:
ZM18
SEM21
28cron
ZM35/2
If the SEM 21 really gets good, then I would expect the other three in this list would also.
Lenses I don't expect to fully recover, but will try:
CV 21/4
CV 35/2.5
It's going to be very interesting to see the CV 35/1.4, which has a funny romance with the thick CG, but still is not as we would hope, and the usable 40cron could get alot better too. I also have them.
Another one will be the Canon LTM 50/1.4, which the M9 really loves, but the A7 series much less so.
I am not nearly as sure as you are about the M 28mm Summicron or for that matter, the M 28mm Elmarit. lens either. As I recall they were dismal for their performance on the stock A7/A7r cameras. We will have to wait for Charlie and others to check in on this with their modified A7/A7r cameras.
Rich
Lloyd has tested the 28 Elmarit Asph with the A7rM versus the stock version. The test results for the 28 Elmarit are excellent, in that by f/8 the elmarit delivers a high grade image and further improves by f/11. From the test results there is no way I would use the Elmarit on the A7r stock. On reviewing the results, IMO I would in many instances use f/2.8 and 4 for street photography with no issues. The 28 Elmarit is a wonderful light lens and I really think if you have the lens, it will be very usable with the A7r M.
I would not purchase the lens myself again, and I feel the 28 Cron Asph will perform even better with longer exit pupil distance. Maybe 28 Elmari V3
Charlie,28 Elmarit v3 would be amazing, as it is a Mandler designed lens. I suspect this lens would really shine
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2810/11213475035_e075814773_b.jpg
DSC01880 by unoh7, on Flickr
if you open the full compare this f/8 image edge trees on first ridge with houses in center frame. To be fair, even on M9 this lens needs to stop way down for great edges. The 28 cron kills it in that way.
I thought, with A7r I might escape this with SLR glass, but my FD 35/2 SSC thorium, at f/8 showed me all sorts of strangeness.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3700/11429263613_10edfcda02_b.jpg
DSC04369 by...Show more →
I only have to stop down to f/5.6 to get good edges on the a7 or II.
a7_Elmarit-M28_CC_1 by thisgunforhire70, on Flickra7_Elmarit-M28_Spell_on_You by thisgunforhire70, on FlickrI do like using it closer, though that's usually where I see some color issues at the edges, particularly if I'm off-axis.
a7_Elmarit-M28_Deadpool_1 by thisgunforhire70, on FlickrJan 30, 2015 at 10:04 PM
p.9 #3A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I see you have the A7 MM 
If you are satisfied, that's all that counts.
For my own taste I can tell nothing from those images, sry.
If you are satisfied, that's all that counts.
For my own taste I can tell nothing from those images, sry.
Jan 30, 2015 at 11:35 PM
p.9 #4A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
freaklikeme wrote:
Hi Steve,
I am not nearly as sure as you are about the M 28mm Summicron or for that matter, the M 28mm Elmarit. lens either. As I recall they were dismal for their performance on the stock A7/A7r cameras. We will have to wait for Charlie and others to check in on this with their modified A7/A7r cameras.
RichHi Rich/Steve/Charlie
Lloyd has tested the 28 Elmarit Asph with the A7rM versus the stock version. The test results for the 28 Elmarit are excellent, in that by f/8 the elmarit delivers a high grade image and further improves by f/11. From the test results there is no way I would use the Elmarit on the A7r stock. On reviewing the results, IMO I would in many instances use f/2.8 and 4 for street photography with no issues. The 28 Elmarit is a wonderful light lens and I really think if you have the lens, it will be very usable with the A7r M.
I would not purchase the lens myself again, and I feel the 28 Cron Asph will perform even better with longer exit pupil distance. Maybe 28 Elmari V3
Charlie,28 Elmarit v3 would be amazing, as it is a Mandler designed lens. I suspect this lens would really shineThe v3 is pretty great on the existing filter stack (a7/II anyway), so I imagine you're absolutely correct.I can't agree. I don't doubt it can make some fun images closer in, but at infinity, with distant objects things are pretty disappointing on the edges.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2810/11213475035_e075814773_b.jpg
DSC01880 by unoh7, on Flickr
if you open the full compare this f/8 image edge trees on first ridge with houses in center frame. To be fair, even on M9 this lens needs to stop way down for great edges. The 28 cron kills it in that way.
I thought, with A7r I might escape this with SLR glass, but my FD 35/2 SSC thorium, at f/8 showed me all sorts of strangeness.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3700/11429263613_10edfcda02_b.jpg
DSC04369 by unoh7, on Flickr
I sent the A7r back after this, and the lens was alot better on the A7, but 28s RF or SLR just did not shine for long landscapes.I only have to stop down to f/5.6 to get good edges on the a7 or II.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3866/14432452214_865db81127_o.jpga7_Elmarit-M28_CC_1 by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3904/14432252482_a244a13f4c_o.jpga7_Elmarit-M28_Spell_on_You by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
I do like using it closer, though that's usually where I see some color issues at the edges, particularly if I'm off-axis.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2939/14453756523_bdf162f896_o.jpga7_Elmarit-M28_Deadpool_1 by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
The 28 Elmarit is probably one of the more difficult M lenses. The colour shots also look very good in your album.
uhoh7 wrote
freaklikeme wrote
charles.K wrote
naturephoto1 wrote
Steve Spencer wrote
I will be really interesting to see how your lenses perform. I expect colour shift to remain on the ZM 18, but the 21 SEM and the 28 cron to do well. I expect the ZM 35 to be close to the Loxia 35 on an unmodified camera. I am looking forward to seeing your results.I am not nearly as sure as you are about the M 28mm Summicron or for that matter, the M 28mm Elmarit. lens either. As I recall they were dismal for their performance on the stock A7/A7r cameras. We will have to wait for Charlie and others to check in on this with their modified A7/A7r cameras.
Rich
Lloyd has tested the 28 Elmarit Asph with the A7rM versus the stock version. The test results for the 28 Elmarit are excellent, in that by f/8 the elmarit delivers a high grade image and further improves by f/11. From the test results there is no way I would use the Elmarit on the A7r stock. On reviewing the results, IMO I would in many instances use f/2.8 and 4 for street photography with no issues. The 28 Elmarit is a wonderful light lens and I really think if you have the lens, it will be very usable with the A7r M.
I would not purchase the lens myself again, and I feel the 28 Cron Asph will perform even better with longer exit pupil distance. Maybe 28 Elmari V3
Charlie,28 Elmarit v3 would be amazing, as it is a Mandler designed lens. I suspect this lens would really shine
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2810/11213475035_e075814773_b.jpg
DSC01880 by unoh7, on Flickr
if you open the full compare this f/8 image edge trees on first ridge with houses in center frame. To be fair, even on M9 this lens needs to stop way down for great edges. The 28 cron kills it in that way.
I thought, with A7r I might escape this with SLR glass, but my FD 35/2 SSC thorium, at f/8 showed me all sorts of strangeness.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3700/11429263613_10edfcda02_b.jpg
DSC04369 by unoh7, on Flickr
I sent the A7r back after this, and the lens was alot better on the A7, but 28s RF or SLR just did not shine for long landscapes.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3866/14432452214_865db81127_o.jpga7_Elmarit-M28_CC_1 by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3904/14432252482_a244a13f4c_o.jpga7_Elmarit-M28_Spell_on_You by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
I do like using it closer, though that's usually where I see some color issues at the edges, particularly if I'm off-axis.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2939/14453756523_bdf162f896_o.jpga7_Elmarit-M28_Deadpool_1 by thisgunforhire70, on Flickr
The 28 Elmarit is probably one of the more difficult M lenses. The colour shots also look very good in your album.
Jan 31, 2015 at 12:42 AM
p.9 #5A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Hi Guys,
I don't have an upload account here so I'll post a link to some shots made before and after my A7 conversion with three lenses:
- 24mm Elmar 3.8
- 35mm Summicron IV
- 50mm Summicron V (current, not APO)
The subject matter is boring, but useful. The folder contains a set of Full Frame images with each lens, before and after, at f5.6 (names start with FF) and crops of the upper left corner 1:1 as follows:
24mm Elmar - f3.8, f4, f5.6, and f8
35mm and 50mm Summicron - f2, f2.8, f4, f5.6, and f8
The file names should be self-explanatory. Focus was on the building in the center of the frame with each lens wide open.
Version IV of the 35mm Summicron isn't great in the corners on anything I have seen, but still interesting. I didn't correct for fall-off and the light was from the right, so the right-lower corner (I had the horizon cutting the corners) is a bit dark.
Lloyd's technique, subject matter, and use of an A7r provide a better test, but this should be informative. Also, my framing of the 24mm Elmar shots was off a bit, but the light was gone before I realized it. The Summicron's are pretty close.
If someone with an upload account on FM wants to pull them down and post here, it will make it easier for everyone.
Link is: http://1drv.ms/1KgVph6
Michael
I don't have an upload account here so I'll post a link to some shots made before and after my A7 conversion with three lenses:
- 24mm Elmar 3.8
- 35mm Summicron IV
- 50mm Summicron V (current, not APO)
The subject matter is boring, but useful. The folder contains a set of Full Frame images with each lens, before and after, at f5.6 (names start with FF) and crops of the upper left corner 1:1 as follows:
24mm Elmar - f3.8, f4, f5.6, and f8
35mm and 50mm Summicron - f2, f2.8, f4, f5.6, and f8
The file names should be self-explanatory. Focus was on the building in the center of the frame with each lens wide open.
Version IV of the 35mm Summicron isn't great in the corners on anything I have seen, but still interesting. I didn't correct for fall-off and the light was from the right, so the right-lower corner (I had the horizon cutting the corners) is a bit dark.
Lloyd's technique, subject matter, and use of an A7r provide a better test, but this should be informative. Also, my framing of the 24mm Elmar shots was off a bit, but the light was gone before I realized it. The Summicron's are pretty close.
If someone with an upload account on FM wants to pull them down and post here, it will make it easier for everyone.
Link is: http://1drv.ms/1KgVph6
Michael
Jan 31, 2015 at 06:55 PM
p.9 #6A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Pretty impressive improvement with the 24 Elmar.
I suspect the 35 Cron IV isn't a great lens for this kind of use to begin with, but centrally it looks a lot sharper after the mod.
I think there's even some peripheral improvement with the 50. Very subtle, but there.
Thanks for doing the test and getting this project off the ground!
I suspect the 35 Cron IV isn't a great lens for this kind of use to begin with, but centrally it looks a lot sharper after the mod.
I think there's even some peripheral improvement with the 50. Very subtle, but there.
Thanks for doing the test and getting this project off the ground!
Jan 31, 2015 at 08:06 PM
p.9 #7A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Thank Michael Agree with Ron's assessment here ... of course! The 24 Elmar looks very good. I will interested in the improvements with the 50 Lux Asph. The 35 Cron IV looks to have more issues.
I should have my A7rM in about a week. Maybe the A7rM will behave differently.
Edited on Jan 31, 2015 at 08:29 PM · View previous versions
Agree with Ron's assessment here ... of course! The 24 Elmar looks very good. I will interested in the improvements with the 50 Lux Asph. The 35 Cron IV looks to have more issues.I should have my A7rM in about a week. Maybe the A7rM will behave differently.
Edited on Jan 31, 2015 at 08:29 PM · View previous versions
Jan 31, 2015 at 08:19 PM
p.9 #8A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
rscheffler wrote:
Pretty impressive improvement with the 24 Elmar.
I suspect the 35 Cron IV isn't a great lens for this kind of use to begin with, but centrally it looks a lot sharper after the mod.
I think there's even some peripheral improvement with the 50. Very subtle, but there.
Thanks for doing the test and getting this project off the ground!
Yes, the 24mm Elmar is a go-to wide for me, so I'm really pleased with the improvement there!
Michael
Pretty impressive improvement with the 24 Elmar.
I suspect the 35 Cron IV isn't a great lens for this kind of use to begin with, but centrally it looks a lot sharper after the mod.
I think there's even some peripheral improvement with the 50. Very subtle, but there.
Thanks for doing the test and getting this project off the ground!
Yes, the 24mm Elmar is a go-to wide for me, so I'm really pleased with the improvement there!
Michael
Jan 31, 2015 at 08:27 PM
p.9 #9A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Thanks Michael! The improvement in the 24 is really excellent.
I can definitely see an improvement with both the 35 and 50 near the corner, though the extreme corners on both are pretty mushy either way.
I'm going to send off my A7 this week. . .
I can definitely see an improvement with both the 35 and 50 near the corner, though the extreme corners on both are pretty mushy either way.
I'm going to send off my A7 this week. . .
Feb 01, 2015 at 01:35 AM
p.9 #10A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Update on the concern raised earlier in this thread as to whether the A7m might have filter stack reflections when shooting into lights at night, as was seen by some people with the original (stock) A7. I took some shots tonight of neighborhood street lights and didn't see anything that seemed problematic. More testing by more people is good, but nothing jumped out at me.
Michael
Michael
Feb 01, 2015 at 11:00 PM
p.9 #11A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Do you mean that it is better than the stock A7
? You're pushing me hard now...
? You're pushing me hard now...Feb 02, 2015 at 12:26 AM
p.9 #12A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Don't know. I never tested the stock A7 in that regard. Sorry...
Michael
Michael
Feb 02, 2015 at 01:17 AM
p.9 #13A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Stock A7 is really poor in that regard, I have some trouble with it even in interior shots. It's much worse than A7R. It would be great to show some night shots with the "m" or some shots with sun inside
Feb 02, 2015 at 04:18 AM
p.9 #14A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I had a 24 Elmar that I dearly loved. When I couldn't use it on my A7R I cried and sold it. Now I cry again...
Feb 02, 2015 at 04:52 AM
p.9 #15A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
mdemeyer wrote:
Update on the concern raised earlier in this thread as to whether the A7m might have filter stack reflections when shooting into lights at night, as was seen by some people with the original (stock) A7. I took some shots tonight of neighborhood street lights and didn't see anything that seemed problematic...
Is that BG39 glass directly glued on the sensor surface (sensor cover glass)?
Update on the concern raised earlier in this thread as to whether the A7m might have filter stack reflections when shooting into lights at night, as was seen by some people with the original (stock) A7. I took some shots tonight of neighborhood street lights and didn't see anything that seemed problematic...
Is that BG39 glass directly glued on the sensor surface (sensor cover glass)?
Feb 02, 2015 at 07:37 AM
p.9 #16A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
My A7M just arrived. Was so excited I shot under bad overcast, jpg, with strange WB so I will hold off posting except something simple. I think some setting were changed in testing at Kolari, which would be expected.
I shot ZM18 and it looks pretty good, albeit with expected colorcast.
forgive funky WB
DSC00220 by unoh7, on Flickr
Untitled by unoh7, on Flickr
@f/1.1:
DSC00194 by unoh7, on Flickr
Edited on Feb 02, 2015 at 08:09 PM · View previous versions
I shot ZM18 and it looks pretty good, albeit with expected colorcast.
forgive funky WB
DSC00220 by unoh7, on Flickr
Untitled by unoh7, on Flickr
@f/1.1:
DSC00194 by unoh7, on Flickr
Edited on Feb 02, 2015 at 08:09 PM · View previous versions
Feb 02, 2015 at 06:06 PM
p.9 #17A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Likewise, my A7R has arrived just in time for an upcoming family event (thanks Ilija!) and a quick and dirty comparison of stock/modded versions with Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 and Leica-M Summilux asph shows that the upgrade was well worth every penny, just for the Lux 50 itself.
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/DSC06952_640.jpg
Shot at f/5.6; 100% crop of a lower right corner
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/A7RMOD-Lux-50-5_6.jpg
Edited on Feb 02, 2015 at 06:46 PM · View previous versions
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/DSC06952_640.jpg
Shot at f/5.6; 100% crop of a lower right corner
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/A7RMOD-Lux-50-5_6.jpg
Edited on Feb 02, 2015 at 06:46 PM · View previous versions
Feb 02, 2015 at 06:42 PM
p.9 #18A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Exciting times, guys! Thanks for sharing. Great improvement on the 50 LUX!
I'm flying out to Stockholm tonight and will bring the A7M along with a tripod - it's dark there this time of year. See what I can do in the old town!
Michael
I'm flying out to Stockholm tonight and will bring the A7M along with a tripod - it's dark there this time of year. See what I can do in the old town!
Michael
Feb 02, 2015 at 06:46 PM
p.9 #19A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
JaKo wrote:
Likewise, my A7R has arrived just in time for an upcoming family event (thanks Ilija!) and a quick and dirty comparison of stock/modded versions with Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 and Leica-M Summilux asph shows that the upgrade was well worth every penny, just for the Lux 50 itself.
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/DSC06952_640.jpg
Shot at f/5.6; 100% crop of a lower right corner
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/A7RMOD-Lux-50-5_6.jpg
Jack,
That looks very good. Please if possible, also run some tests with some R lenses as well as M mount lenses so that I have some peace of mind before I consider making the modification.
Rich
Edited on Feb 03, 2015 at 12:59 AM · View previous versions
Likewise, my A7R has arrived just in time for an upcoming family event (thanks Ilija!) and a quick and dirty comparison of stock/modded versions with Zeiss Biogon ZM 2/35 and Leica-M Summilux asph shows that the upgrade was well worth every penny, just for the Lux 50 itself.
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/DSC06952_640.jpg
Shot at f/5.6; 100% crop of a lower right corner
http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/A7RMOD-Lux-50-5_6.jpg
Jack,
That looks very good. Please if possible, also run some tests with some R lenses as well as M mount lenses so that I have some peace of mind before I consider making the modification.
Rich
Edited on Feb 03, 2015 at 12:59 AM · View previous versions
Feb 02, 2015 at 06:55 PM
p.9 #20A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Thanks Jack! Having the ability to use the 50 Lux Asph with no issue is worth the modification for this lens alone 
Edited on Feb 02, 2015 at 10:13 PM · View previous versions
Edited on Feb 02, 2015 at 10:13 PM · View previous versions
Feb 02, 2015 at 07:05 PM