Archive 2015 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.51 #1 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Makten wrote:
The mod will affect other lenses too, since any older manual lens is optimised for film. I can see some Nikkors behaving worse on the a7 than they did on the D700. The cost is nothing I worry about. But I do wonder if the Loxia 35 will be worse or better.
Edit: And if it wasn't clear; I already have the 40/2.
The Loxia will likely be a bit worse. It was designed specifically for the thicker sensor stack. I haven't seen the Loxia tested, but Jim Kasson tested the FE 35 f/2.8 and it is a bit worse on a modified A7 II than on an unmodified one. So, I would expect something similar with the Loxia. You could always sell the Loxia, however, and get the ZM 35 f/2. It ought to perform well on the modified camera and then you will be getting a slightly smaller and optically very similar lens.
p.51 #2 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Steve Spencer wrote:
The Loxia will likely be a bit worse. It was designed specifically for the thicker sensor stack. I haven't seen the Loxia tested, but Jim Kasson tested the FE 35 f/2.8 and it is a bit worse on a modified A7 II than on an unmodified one. So, I would expect something similar with the Loxia. You could always sell the Loxia, however, and get the ZM 35 f/2. It ought to perform well on the modified camera and then you will be getting a slightly smaller and optically very similar lens.
Yes, that's my thought. Would love to have the ZM in silver. But I'm not sure the Loxia will perform worse, at least not in every aspect. It does show some very weird behaviour at times, such as a curved field.
Another reason for modding the camera is the reflections within the filter stack. Almost every night shot with lights within the frame are ruined with the stock camera.
The only thing holding me back is that I don't fancy the UI of the a7. But on the other hand, I don't want to spend money on upgrading to the a7 II since I mostly shoot with my RX100 III anyway.
p.51 #3 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Makten wrote:
Another reason for modding the camera is the reflections within the filter stack. Almost every night shot with lights within the frame are ruined with the stock camera.
The only thing holding me back is that I don't fancy the UI of the a7. But on the other hand, I don't want to spend money on upgrading to the a7 II since I mostly shoot with my RX100 III anyway.
At this time the Kolari replacement filter is not A/R coated, so has the same reflection issues as the original A7. I know they are expecting to add A/R to the filter now that the supply of glass from Schott is picking back up so volumes can support that.
So, if that is a key goal, you should wait. Note that I don't find it to be an issue for most work, but it is a noticeable issue for night-time architecture shots, as it was with the stock A7.
p.51 #5 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I also am struggling with the altered WB of the modded camera. I got an expodisc and that helps but only when I use it (completely forgot it for the last outing), and is just kind of annoying. Fixing an image that was shot without the custom WB is not easy either, as it seems to be both purple and green at the same time.
I'm pretty set at this point on getting an A7rII and selling the A7m and A7ii, and not modding it. I'll probably sell some of my wider RF glass (though not the 21SEM) and make do with the nearly-as-good cheaper alternatives that are designed to work on these cameras (eg Loxia, if they ever make any more). Should make my wallet happier too.
p.51 #6 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Taylor Sherman wrote:
Oh yeah, the modded camera definitely still has the same sensor reflection issues:
I just about want to throw the camera in the trash when I see this happen.
Noooo, it just adds uniqueness to photos. At least you don't have to add it in the post
p.51 #7 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Taylor Sherman wrote:
I also am struggling with the altered WB of the modded camera. I got an expodisc and that helps but only when I use it (completely forgot it for the last outing), and is just kind of annoying. Fixing an image that was shot without the custom WB is not easy either, as it seems to be both purple and green at the same time.
I'm pretty set at this point on getting an A7rII and selling the A7m and A7ii, and not modding it. I'll probably sell some of my wider RF glass (though not the 21SEM) and make do with the nearly-as-good cheaper alternatives that are designed to work on these cameras (eg Loxia, if they ever make any more). Should make my wallet happier too.
p.51 #8 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I sent Taylor some Daylight ACR profiles (Zeiss and Leica) for the original A7 mod (BG39 glass) and, if he finds them useful, I'm happy to share more broadly. As I indicated to him, I find all the Sony profiles in Lightroom/ACR to be over-saturated for my taste with the exception of Camera Neutral. The custom profiles, made with Color Checker Passport, are similarly over-saturated (to my taste) but come into line with between a -20 and -30 desaturation setting in Lightroom.
p.51 #9 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I like them quite a bit - thanks! I've gone and applied them to a bunch of photos from the past couple months, and the results are almost always an improvement over both the Adobe standard and the Huelight A7 profiles that I've been using. Occasionally the results are really, really great.
The saturation does seem to increase compared to the other profiles mentioned above, so there's a bit of "cheating" as the image will pop more, but for sure the color balance is much, much better.
In a number of pictures I'd had to adjust the blue hues to make the sky not purple, and this profile just fixes them straight up.
The profiles currently posted are for the original mod with the BG39 glass. I made one with a Zeiss ZM50mm Planar and one with a current non-ASPH Leica Summicron-M 50mm, both in direct noon sun, ISO 100, F8 @ 1/1000. I don't see much difference between the Zeiss and Leica glass, but YMMV. The thing I find best is that it is easier to get blue sky correct.
If someone in the SF Bay area has the "humidity resistant" glass mod and wants to meet up, we can make a set for that camera. PM me to set up a meet.
As I mentioned to Taylor, I find these (and the other Sony profiles in LR/ACR except Camera Neutral) to be overly-saturated. Your taste may vary. I find -20 to -30 on the Saturation slider more pleasing. But, hey, I shoot mostly B&W, so my taste in color is pretty questionable, anyway.
Experiment, enjoy and feedback (as always) is appreciated.
p.51 #13 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
I find Adobe Standard profile to be the worst choice, not only for Sony A7 series but all cameras I have used.
For Sony A7R & A7RM2 Camera Standard and Auto WB work surprisingly well and only sporadically require few edits, if any.
See example below; I positioned this simple setup roughly 6 feet away from my computer (calibrated NEC PA series monitor --> nVidia Quatro --> 10-bit DisplayPort --> yadi yada) and shot at f/4 with AWB, Auto ISO. Imported image via Adobe Camera Raw and auto assigned Camera Standard profile with +5 saturation and +10 contrast then resized in PS6 (all workflow in 16-bit till now) and exported to 8-bit sRGB. Went back and forth between monitor and the setup; colours are more less within 99% accuracy. http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/20150912_0001_640.jpg
Mind you, things are easier when shooting in daylight, but once light conditions become less than ideal, corrections may be challenging.
As Michael and a few others from another thread noted, the saturation of blue and red seem to be on the high side. However, on my calibrated wide-gamut screen, the color is quite accurate by visual checking, so I leave them as is instead of adjusting the saturation in DNG Profile Editor.
I like it better than the Adobe Standard or Maurizio's profiles. I also prefer the X-Rite's profiles over the Adobe generated profiles from the the same files.
After careful comparison on various scenes, all three profiles have very subtle difference compared to each other. So you can use either but best is with the exact lens. DCPtool can be used to apply these profiles on different A7 cameras.
p.51 #15 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Here's an example of the profile - this is with the Leica 21 Super-Elmar, WB set with an ExpoDisc a few minutes earlier. (6150, +28 magenta -- that's a lot of magenta, and why the sky tends towards purple, but it is apparently necessary to offset the green cast from the mod's glass?)
p.51 #16 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Even the Camera Standard shows some purple, and a slight greenish haze over the rest (look at the yellow boxcar just right of center). That's pretty much all gone with the right profiles.
p.51 #18 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!
Taylor Sherman wrote:
Even the Camera Standard shows some purple, and a slight greenish haze over the rest (look at the yellow boxcar just right of center). That's pretty much all gone with the right profiles.
I think it's an Adobe thing. I did a dual-illuminant profiling in Adobe DNG Profile Editor, and the blue color swatch just turns into purple-ish... X-Rite's profile seems to have aggressive tone curve, but I much prefer it over the other. Skin tone on the X-rite is miles better as well.
The profiles currently posted are for the original mod with the BG39 glass. I made one with a Zeiss ZM50mm Planar and one with a current non-ASPH Leica Summicron-M 50mm, both in direct noon sun, ISO 100, F8 @ 1/1000. I don't see much difference between the Zeiss and Leica glass, but YMMV. The thing I find best is that it is easier to get blue sky correct.
If someone in the SF Bay area has the "humidity resistant" glass mod and wants to meet up, we can make a set for that camera. PM me to set up a meet.
As I mentioned to Taylor, I find these (and the other Sony profiles in LR/ACR except Camera Neutral) to be overly-saturated. Your taste may vary. I find -20 to -30 on the Saturation slider more pleasing. But, hey, I shoot mostly B&W, so my taste in color is pretty questionable, anyway.
Experiment, enjoy and feedback (as always) is appreciated.
So I play with this a bit, the problem with seemingly over-saturation of the X-Rite profile is coming from their tone curve. You can solve this problem by using Adobe DNG Profile editor and change the tone curve to linear. Colors accuracy remains the same (IMO) but overall contrast is flatter now. This is probably a good baseline for most people. Adobe profile generator definitely messes up the blue channel.
. But my cam is definitely of more limited use.
