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Archive 2014 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.

  
 
Natalie H
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p.2 #1 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Steady Hand wrote:
Hi Natalie,

I just read the responses from Lisa and Jefferies1. Both made many good points (very good advice) in answer to your topic.

In fact, if this forum had 'stickies' I would suggest this topic become "stuck."



Steady, I agree with you. I am so grateful to everyone who took the time to offer their honest advice and share their experiences. I've certainly got a lot to think about. Just what I needed. What an awesome forum!



Mar 23, 2014 at 05:37 AM
ICE B1
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p.2 #2 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Natalie, I don't post here often, but I'll add my thoughts. I've been in business for thirty years, off and on, and in different locations offering different services as my circumstances have changed. I've made part or all of my income from photography for a lot of years.

You've gotten really good advice so far, especially about the business end of photography as a vocation. Read those posts over very carefully and repeatedly until you absorb every point they make. Much of the joy you experience from making images can disappear when you're going through your invoices to do sales taxes or trying to collect accounts receivable.

I'll just elaborate one more point that was touched on. You mention that your fundamental skills are lacking and that you really don't know what the "M" setting on your camera does. When you charge for your work, you are suddenly and magically transformed into a "pro." There are no excuses. You have to deliver for your client. You have to fully understand the properties of light and optical theory. You have to understand the end result of the relationship between sensitivity (ISO), shutter speed, and aperture. You have to understand depth of field, and how much you need (or want) in a portrait of any specific client. You need to understand the relationship in contrast between the brightest highlight and the deepest shadow and how that relates to the ability of your film or sensor to record it. If you're dong "pro" work, you have to understand how to control EVERY variable to ensure that product is exactly what the client is expecting.

To that end, you have to be able to interview your client well enough to understand their expectations so you can meet them. That alone is a skill that may take a long time to develop, and one that without you cannot be successful. Guiding a client through their expectations is a skill that all successful pros have. Unmet expectations is what leads to failure for photographers.

"Pro" ball players (in all sports) master and play the fundamentals every time they go out. They understand their relationship to the rest of their team, and how those fundamentals come into play on every possession; every block, tackle, screen play, layup, and goal. We can go out and shoot hoops in the driveway, but that doesn't qualify us for the NBA. The fundamentals must be mastered before most of us can even try out. Photography is no different. Paid jobs are not the place to learn the fundamentals. Fans go to "pro" sports to see "pro" level play. Clients will expect to see your "A" game, and without a complete mastery of the fundamentals, you don't have an "A" game.

Errors and omissions and liability insurance is absolutely mandatory for a "pro." You also need to know how to write and maintain shooting contracts that spell out image ownership, usage rights, model releases, and payment terms; and those are especially important if you exhibit exemplars online on a website for example. There's just a LOT of "business stuff" to know and practice.

I'm not writing to discourage you. You have talent, but talent alone does not a "pro" make. There's even an argument that there are a lot of successful pros who aren't very talented at all (I probably fall into that category.) There's no doubt that with the right skill set, business plan, and a lot of drive you can be successful. I just wanted to make sure that you have all the pieces in place to be successful.

Good luck!

Roger



Mar 23, 2014 at 11:03 AM
fstopperdown
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p.2 #3 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


I would read, and read again, and read again, sleep on, wake up, and read again what Eyeball wrote...

I agree with his reply.

People who doubt this 80/20 split are kidding themselves.

Those that don't lose the passion seem to make out quite well.

Is this about just making money?

I found out the hard way, that this is an easy way to turn a passion into a JOB. A job if you are lucky...

In the end, my best advice is not to be in a rush. Have your act together behind the camera and in offering a final product.

Also, come out the gates charging in the upper tier of your market. Seek critiques to be sure that your skill is on par with your competition.

Good luck!



Mar 23, 2014 at 11:31 AM
nolaguy
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p.2 #4 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Natalie,

Over my 30 years in businesses, I’ve experienced precious few people who come across as composed, articulate and seemingly level-headed as your posts suggest you are.

Expertise and experience are comparatively easy to come by for someone like you. Being someone like you is the rare and most valuable part – and don’t take that lightly. Initially at least, most folks as sharp as you assume everyone is – they’re not. Advantage Natalie.

Your biggest challenge will be “knowing what you don’t know” – that is to say, you’ll likely slay any lack of understanding once you’re aware of it. FM is invaluable in that regard. You’ve been registered here for many years but if you don’t follow the boards religiously, you miss out on how FM can fill in some of the blanks that 20 years ago everyone had to learn from real world experience. The more you hang around these good people and absorb even seemingly trivial threads, the more you’ll get a sense of the fuller business of photography.

Someone mentioned the Pro Corner board. It’s great but gets comparatively little traffic. For your purposes I’d suggest People and Wedding. Even if you don’t intend to shoot weddings, that board probably has more business discussion than any other in FM.

(Just temper what you pick up there, realizing that those folks cover super high-pressure events and their perspectives will often be somewhat different than portrait shooters. For example, wedding photographers are burdened with processing hundreds of images for each job and that comes with a different set of ambitions and constraints than portrait folks who often have the luxury of carefully staging sessions and massaging images in post. I’m not saying portraiture is easier, it’s just very different.)

You’ve received some pretty generous and amazing advice in this thread (you’re right, it is a wonderful forum – ever said with a tip of my hat to Fred) and I’ll try to avoid repeating any of it.

I don’t think anyone’s mentioned workflow and backups. Once you really dive into your photography ambitions you’ll quickly bury yourself under mountains of images. Without an organized system to log and keep track of them, you can easily grow overwhelmed and literally unable to find your rear end with both hands. The business of keeping track of untouched original, backed up, and edited (often multiples) files quickly equates to medieval torture without software and a strong sense of organization.

Some folks like Photo Mechanic, many of us use Lightroom. Both programs help you organize and cull your photograph database. Lightroom provides many useful editing tools (so much so that many photographers use Photoshop only for the more complex editing tasks). I’d urge you to get into one or the other asap if you’re not already using something similar.

Backups is another matter crucial to the photography business. As the cliché goes, there are two kinds of hard drives – those that have crashed and those that will. One reason several posters have mentioned Errors and Omissions insurance is that even backup-savvy photographers realize at some point, they are likely to face a catastrophic loss of images. It. Simply. Will. Happen.

Become a backup fanatic.


Finally, if I read you correctly, you’ll be inclined to over-think things.
Do.
And don’t.

I’ll leave it to you and karma to figure that one out.


Have a ball and do great things,

Chuck





Mar 23, 2014 at 01:22 PM
nolaguy
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p.2 #5 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Almost forgot, there are a few industry bibles worth immersing yourself in. I’ll invite others to add to this list but one no-brainer everyone would agree upon is Light, Science and Magic.


Mar 23, 2014 at 01:27 PM
Steve Wylie
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p.2 #6 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Here's the bottom line: I also think that you should charge when you are able to regularly and without fail turn out a professional looking set of photos to a client. When you're prepared to do that, you can begin to charge clients. (Thanks, Lisa.) Think about the last time you hired a plumber. Would you want to hire a plumber who wonders how to replace a faucet while working at your house? That goes to your referenced blog post. You have shown some good photos, some not-so-good photos, and demonstrated (via your text) your current state of mental readiness. Just based on that one post alone, I'd advise you to figure out which of those photos would stand the test of time to a client, versus which ones would not, and don't tell potential clients that you're figuring out which button does what.

Lots of good advice from photographers who wish you well. I do too.



Mar 23, 2014 at 06:14 PM
Natalie H
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p.2 #7 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Wow. Even more excellent advice! I really can't thank everybody enough for the amazing advice you've all contributed here (and in one PM). What an incredible community. Thank you!

Roger -

Thank you for your tough love! I will be shooting Manual from now on! Many of the shots I took that I linked here I did actually take in Manual, but it was my first go, and I was fiddling around a bit to get what I was after. I think I have a pretty good grasp of how each of the variables affects the photo, but I don't immediately know which settings are going to give me the right exposure, and I'm not yet used to checking the shutter speed to make sure I haven't taken a photo too slow. I definitely need more practice.

Thank you for all of your advice about the business side of things too. I will be taking it on board. Your well wishes are much appreciated.


fstopperdown -

Thank you for your advice. I do need to remind myself not to rush, so what you said is just what I needed to hear. I tend to jump in headfirst when things are new and exciting, but I agree that I'm better off improving and honing my technique before launching ahead. I clearly need to factor in the business component of the job much more heavily also, which will take time. Thank you.


Chuck -

That's some really lovely flattery. Thank you for your kindness! I enjoyed your advice, and subtle humour.

It's interesting that you suggest I follow the wedding boards, as that's actually where I used to hang out the most when I was stalking the likes of Tony Hoffer, Sam Hassas and Chuck Anerino a few years back. I'm not sure why I was drawn to those boards in particular, but I did enjoy learning about the wedding photography business (don't anyone worry, I KNOW I'm nowhere near ready to shoot weddings). I'll definitely start hanging around there again to try to absorb what I can about running a photography business.

Thank you for the warning to protect against inevitable catastrophe. I've been using Lightroom, but I have no organised system or consistent backup method, and I know I've needed to sit down to organise one, so I appreciate the nudge (shove?) in that direction.

I think you read me perfectly. I'm going to overthink what you said about overthinking, but try not to. Thanks again. Your time and words are greatly appreciated.

Oh, and Light, Science & Magic is one my husband happens to have, so I'll get my nose stuck into it!


Steve Wylie -

Thank you, Steve. I think you hit the nail on the head, and as silly as it sounds, I needed to hear not to tell potential clients that I'm still working things out! I tend to lack confidence, so I've been a bit too honest about that. Thank you for your well wishes. That's really lovely.




Mar 25, 2014 at 05:30 AM
fstopperdown
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p.2 #8 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Back in the mid 2000's, I was an award winning PJ for a local newspaper who thought it would be easy to transition into weddings. It was a long and hard lesson. Skills eroded with desire and the consistency was not there.

After a few years away, with a friends wedding on the distant horizon, I struggle resisting the urge to rush back into the fray.

From personal experience, balancing a day job and a family, and adding photography career can just suck the life from you.

I'm back with the newspaper and shooting a couple of times a week. Camera and lighting skills are returning. With each assignment, I get what is needed for the paper and spend the rest of my time work on other skills.

Yes... I have set a launch date. Based on my previous failure and some personal projects, it's February 2016.

Why two years? I lack the consistency. I know what I'm trying to do, but struggle with efficiency and implementation.

I don't want to use paid clients as a "Fake it/Make it" tool, but carefully selected friends and projects will supply the victims with lowered expectations.

One thing that I have done is started personal projects. One short, one medium, and one long term. All portrait and PJ related and compliment the skills needed for both weddings and portraits.

For the lack of a better idea, the long term project is called the thousand face project, and involves street portraits. Why? I'm usually out on the street meeting a lot of people, and thought why not?

The camera and press pass credentials break down subject apprehension, and it's becoming a real enjoyment and a real challenge. Subject gets a decent image in return for their time. I get material for blogging, portfolio, and a quick and dirty portrait opportunity.

Much like the movie "Gone in Sixty Seconds" it is about the time I'm given. Find a background, study the lighting, communicating, posing, and using OCF on the fly. It's been tough and humbling.

The medium term project revolves around the Presidential primary in 2016. Since we are third on the docket, there will be a stampede of candidates from both parties rolling thru the state. Press pass = opportunities.

Why do some succeed and others fail?

How we arrive will be different for us all. But my advice is to set a path that requires you to set real goals, require real photography, forcing a refinement of skills, that eventually lead to consistent results.

I've seen a lot of successful photographers. Some with less skill than others but they all were great with people. Just marketing machines! Also, they were consistent in the photography they produced. If you have these two qualities then the business side will take care of itself.

Looking back at chapter one... I cringe at some of the work that I let other people associate with my name. Luckily, I have shot dozens of weddings and a hundred plus other gigs thru the newspaper.

My advice is to never, never, never, let friends and potential clients see less than professional work.

99% of the people on this forum were not ready to be hired after their third wedding or tenth portrait session.

In two years, I'll will have shot close to a thousand faces in multiple lighting situations. I can keep trucking along with a minimal investment keeping my day job, my marriage, and my sanity intact and working on my projects.

Someday, if I'm getting paid to do family portraits on the beach, I wont be cheap. If someday you see my work inside or on the cover of Fortune magazine, it will be because I didn't fake it.

Good luck to you, and thank for the soap box... all this respectively IMHO...





Mar 25, 2014 at 07:51 AM
dmacmillan
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p.2 #9 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Natalie H wrote:
Clearly the term MWACS is meant to be derogatory

No, it was meant to be descriptive. Based on your subsequent posts and the common definition of MWAC (moms who have their interest in photography either sparked or rekindled by the birth of a child), I'd say you fit the description. BTW, there's even a couple of Moms With Cameras" websites. Here's one: http://www.moms-with-cameras.com/

I'll expand on the point I was trying to make. I Googled "professional photographers" for my area and came up with dozens of "pro" photographers. I visited their web sites or Facebook pages. There were only two who are full time professionals (I've known them for years). There were two who did professional level work, one of which specialized in pet photography. The rest were either very new to photography and/or just not very good, I regularly have more talented students in my Digital Photography workshops, which I hold at a local university. Therefore, comparing yourself to "pros" in your local area has little value, especially when used to make a business decision.

Also, I visited my son who lives in a historic district near my home. We walked down to a small city park near his house late Saturday afternoon. There were five "pros" doing portrait and family photography in that small space, oftern tripping over each other. It was obvious they were shooting for hire and not just friends or family members of the subject. All but one was using consumer grade DSLR's with kit lenses. The one with better equipment (2 5D bodies and "L" lenses) was still shooting on camera flash with a Fong Dong and from his posing and choice of backgrounds, I'd say he doesn't have a deep knowledge of portraiture.

Photography is the new Amway. Like Amway, it doesn't take much investment or demonstrated ability to get going. Also like Amway, it's easy to get family and friends to be your customers. The hard part is that you burn through them in six months or so and then have to sell to complete strangers, which is an entirely different experience. Finally, like Amway, the attrition rate is very high.

I understand the lure of having your work affirmed by people willing to shell out hard earned money to obtain it. I spent years as a full time pro supporting my family just on what I earned from photography.

You've gotten some great advice here. I'm glad to see you are internalizing what has been suggested. Hone your skills. Use us at FM as a resource. There are many talented and experienced folks here who can give you honest and helpful feedback on your images. That will help speed your improvement. I am thankful for those who mentored me in my career.



Mar 25, 2014 at 10:52 AM
kzoockof
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p.2 #10 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


As a hobbyist, I obviously don't charge. Of course that may just be a nice way of saying nobody would pay me anyway!

But, if I were interested in pursuing photography as a career or side career/money interest, I can only say how I would approach it.

That is I would would give myself jobs and treat them like I were being paid in all regards. If I wanted to be a wedding photog, I would go to weddings and photograph them as though I were hired to do so. I would go to fund raiser events in the community and shoot them as though I were paid to be there. From all aspects, start to finish, prep, shooting, post processing, even a few prints. Then I would evaluate my finished product and honestly ask myself, is my work worth anything? If my answer is yes, absolutely or definitely, I'd then travel out of town, find a professional photog and ask them to review your work and offer their opinion. The out of town is key, you are not their competitor, and they need to know this.

My guess is that it would take me a long time to become good enough to justify charging. Using the wedding photog assignment as the example, I would want to know what are the key images every customer wants? Am I am to hit those key shots at 100% of the practice weddings I shoot? If not, I need to improve more.

I am not suggesting you do all this work free of charge, but I am suggesting that you don't charge, but at the same time you are not "the" official photog and the "customer" should not expect anything from you or have any demands. That if you feel you get 2-3 really great shots, you will share them with the "customer" on that premise only as your gift or letting you practice. Then, stay out of the way of the official paid photog, of course after introducing yourself and assuring you understand their role and yours.

If my work and my skills can't please me, I suspect they won't please others, especially when they are paying!

Photography is one of only a few careers in which we can call ourselves professionals - even if nobody is willing to pay us or if we lack the skills at the current time.

You are fortunate to have a spouse who is a career photog from which to learn and share. I have got to assume you expect him to be 100% honest in his critique and support his opinions (of your photog work) even when they are not what you want to hear. He is fortunate to have a spouse who has a great and similar interest, what a pleasant and wonderful situation for the two of you.

FYI, I don't know what an MWACS is/are and therefore how it is sexist. Anybody?



Mar 25, 2014 at 07:06 PM
dmacmillan
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p.2 #11 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


kzoockof wrote:
If I wanted to be a wedding photog, I would go to weddings and photograph them as though I were hired to do so.

FYI, I don't know what an MWACS is/are and therefore how it is sexist. Anybody?

You would crash weddings? Really?

MWAC - Mom With a Camera
GWAC - Guy With a Camera



Mar 25, 2014 at 07:11 PM
kzoockof
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p.2 #12 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Okay, I sort of figured out what MWACS sort of means, but the letters don't make full sense of it. I can understand why it is considered sexist and offensive.

However, I think it is important to also recognize that having a child is a life changing event. That finding new interests, loves and passions frequently come with life changing events. If that happens to be a love of photography resulting or realizing this due to the birth of a child, then so be it, run with what you love. And for the record, having a child is not just a life changing event for a Mom. It changed my life as a Dad and I changed as a person right along with it. I am proud of this, certainly not ashamed of it. Whatever the reason, cause, event that helped you find something new in life that you love should be embraced and be thankful for whatever that cause may have been, and yes, even if others consider it stereotypical. And get ready, you going to experience it all over again when your children grow up, go off to college and on to their own careers and explorations - leaving you once again without children at home and tons of time for yourself and new, different or rekindled interests and ambitions.



Mar 25, 2014 at 07:22 PM
ICE B1
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p.2 #13 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


kzoockof wrote:
As a hobbyist, I obviously don't charge. Of course that may just be a nice way of saying nobody would pay me anyway!

But, if I were interested in pursuing photography as a career or side career/money interest, I can only say how I would approach it.

That is I would would give myself jobs and treat them like I were being paid in all regards. If I wanted to be a wedding photog, I would go to weddings and photograph them as though I were hired to do so. I would go to fund raiser events in the community and shoot
...Show more

No offense... but crashing a wedding with a camera and potentially interfering with a pro who's paid to be working there isn't the best plan, at least in my book. And about finding a working pro in another town to mentor you... first, do you really think they'll give you their time and advice for free? Most of use have spent a lot of time and even more money learning our craft. While I'm not a curmudgeon, I don't freely give tutoring either. Secondly, I'd be pretty selective about whose advice I'd take when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of making images. As was mentioned in another post, there are some real hacks out there who call themselves "pros."

If you decide this is something you seriously want to pursue, and you really want to be mentored, you might investigate signing on with an established studio as an assistant, or even as a second shooter for a couple of years. You won't make much, and it'll likely be hard work, but it will expose you to the business practice side of photography without leaving you having to learn from the school of hard knocks, and it'll give you an opportunity to learn in a more controlled environment under the tutelage of a more experienced photographer. Provided, again, that you can find a reputable studio or photographer whose work is of the quality you want to produce.






Mar 25, 2014 at 10:22 PM
dmacmillan
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p.2 #14 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


ICE B1 wrote:
If you decide this is something you seriously want to pursue, and you really want to be mentored, you might investigate signing on with an established studio as an assistant, or even as a second shooter for a couple of years. You won't make much, and it'll likely be hard work, but it will expose you to the business practice side of photography without leaving you having to learn from the school of hard knocks, and it'll give you an opportunity to learn in a more controlled environment under the tutelage of a more experienced photographer. Provided, again, that
...Show more
That might have been good advice back in the '60's and '70's, but to me it assumes a photography studio business model that has all but disappeared. There are very few B&M photo studios left.

Even back in the '70's and '80's, hardly a week went by that I didn't have at least one eager beaver show up on my door convinced I wanted to hire him on as an assistant so he or she could learn the business. Many were willing to work for free, just to get the experience.

I didn't hire them or let them work for free for a number of reasons. I didn't need the help, so they would just be overhead. I was in the business of photography, not teaching wannabes. Most were either naive or had an attitude. I paid a lot of money to obtain my degree in photography. I recommended good schools to them and wished them luck.

I also had some of my students in my continuing education photo classes who wanted to go into the photography business. I tried to give them a realistic view of the market. One gave up a 20 year career working for a utility company to open a studio. In six months he had lost his savings, his home and his wife. He ended up 45 years old living in his momma's basement.

I did pay back the help of some wonderful photographers who mentored me when I was a teenager. One of the local public high schools had a mentoring program where students interested in a particular field could work with someone in the community. I participated in the program and mentored high school seniors. Working through the school took care of a lot of legalities. One of my students now owns a successful photo studio with her husband. After high school, she got her B.F.A. from the major university in the state.



Mar 26, 2014 at 07:56 AM
ICE B1
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p.2 #15 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


dmacmillan wrote:
That might have been good advice back in the '60's and '70's, but to me it assumes a photography studio business model that has all but disappeared. There are very few B&M photo studios left.

Even back in the '70's and '80's, hardly a week went by that I didn't have at least one eager beaver show up on my door convinced I wanted to hire him on as an assistant so he or she could learn the business. Many were willing to work for free, just to get the experience.

I didn't hire them or let them work for
...Show more

I can't take issue with any of this advice at all... and trying to find an assistant's spot is really tough, but I thought the idea preferable to trying to "crash" weddings. I just chatted with another midwest portrait/wedding/event photographer last week who went from renting six store front suites and employing a dozen folks just five years ago to a single suite and he's doing all his own work again... everything. It's a tough, tough market out there. I chatted with a big event photographer in Hollywood a month or so ago, and he's all but closed his place and selling of much of his fixtures. When he's shooting now, it's all about rentals. The world is changing at a pace that is faster than digital progress.




Mar 26, 2014 at 01:01 PM
kzoockof
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p.2 #16 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Ice B1: "but crashing a wedding with a camera and potentially interfering with a pro who's paid to be working there isn't the best plan"

At no point did I suggest just showing up and crashing a wedding, nor would I ever do this (again, I have no intentions or interest personally in becoming a "professional" photographer). But if you know of people getting married (through a network of friends, etc. . .), I suspect it would be very, very easy to get permission. And, as I clearly suggested, to introduce yourself to the "official" photog and let them know you understand the limits of your being there vs. his/hers.

As to getting feedback and advice from a professional photographer from a different (not competing area), I disagree with your comments that no photographer would give the time of day. If that (your comment) is actually true, photography is the only profession that I have ever heard of that has such types of people. Most successful business people are happy to share their comments, advice, feedback, thoughts, experiences with other people getting into their profession but will not be in direct competition. As a person who has been hired to perform business start-ups, I can tell you that I have requested and been granted such permission from nearly everybody I have ever contacted with such a request. If photographers are really that different, I am not sure why anybody would want to become one if it means being that type of person.

Most successful people are happy to share their knowledge and experiences with others (especially those not competing directly) as they want their "industry" or "field" to be occupied with professional people that help to improve and expand the image of their industry as a whole. But perhaps you are right about "professional" photographers . . . which may be part of the reason the "industry" is no longer looked upon as favorably as it used to be.

Weak competitors in any industry hurt the whole industry, even the best performers. It's no different that if you hire a cleaning service for your house, they aren't any good. You try another, they aren't any good. Common conclusion, don't hire a cleaning service, they (as a group or industry) don't really do a very good job. This devalues even the best services who may do a good job. The same is true with "professional" photographers.

It's funny, but when one is the best in their industry, they want their competitors to become better. It is really only the weak and mediocre people/businesses in an industry that think that weaker competitors are going to help them. A strong, professional industry or community of providers raises everybody in the pool and improves and increases the perception of value by the customers.

Photography is a low cost to entry industry. It can be successfully self taught. There is no licensing or "accrediting organization" (that I know of) that assures a certain level of quality or ability. It can be started as a side business when one already has a full time job. And what makes it even harder/worse, is the fact that somebody with zero experience can be handed a camera or even a phone and have the potential to produce a magnificent shot - which by the way happens every day.



Mar 26, 2014 at 01:53 PM
Eyeball
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p.2 #17 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


While this topic is back at the top again, I think it's probably appropriate to x-ref to Chuck's thread on the wedding forum. Some interesting reflections there.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1283005



Mar 26, 2014 at 01:59 PM
zalmyb
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p.2 #18 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Hey Natalie!!

Good on you for using your brain here. Lisa's reply was wonderful.

The no-no on shooting for free usually espoused by photographers here and elsewhere is in regards ot people who request free work. I shoot VERY often for free. If I'm not busy for a week or two, if I have some new gear to try out, or I just want to practice, I'll find a family (I'm mainly a family photographer) who is decent looking, has an interesting life, and more than 2 kids, and ask them if I could shoot them. The only caveat is that they have to respect photography and your work enough for them to put effort in as well.

I started charging pretty early on, but very little. I'm not sure I was best served by that as the clients that want $60 photo shoots aren't usually into photography and won't be gushing about you to anyone. I should have done it for free for a while, but again, with me approaching them (finding people who would appreciate it).

In regards to knowing your way around a camera, again, I knew what everything did, but I didn't shoot on manual for quite some time.

If I think of anything else, I'll throw it your way.

Good luck!!



Mar 26, 2014 at 05:31 PM
Prettym1k3
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p.2 #19 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


I'm going to follow up with what Lisa said with my own little story.

I picked up a D50 back in 2005 because my buddy took an awesome picture of me and my then-girlfriend (now my wife) sitting on the couch. The rest is history.

I upgraded gear as I could, and one of the ways I kept accruing gear and being able to invest in my business and keep a safety net is by keeping a day job. Granted, at the time I was married, but no kid. It allowed me to not fear when I wasn't getting business, and allowed my business to grow naturally. Now here's where I break it down.

I did a few free shoots for friends and such, and then my wife and I bought a home in the Bay Area, CA, no less. Not cheap, and we were strapped big time. Not a few weeks later, she let me know that she wanted to be a stay at home mom (something we're still working on despite hoping for our second kiddo right now). I STILL work a day job. And it sucks sometimes. I work 6-7 days a week, and I have almost zero time off. Last week I had 90 minutes where I was awake and not working - for the entire week. Are you willing to work hard? Because you'll need to. But having a day job means security. So that's worth it.

The second thing to account for is natural growth. Some people get burned out because they're bummed out. They compare themselves to others all day long (I see this with stay at home mom-ographers a lot who think they're not busy enough, so they give up). Some people get burned out because they're too busy, and can't hack it. Sorry, and maybe I'm a little too black and white about this, but some people can't keep up. They fall back, and bail on their bookings, their clients, their delivery. These are the people who take over a year to deliver a wedding, or never deliver at all. And the third group fails at the business side of things. Again, their delivery isn't met, their book keeping fails, they don't pay taxes, their communication is horrible, and they just kinda' shut down.

The long and short is that in 2010 I booked 2 weddings. The first for $500, and the second for $750, and I paid a second shooter $80 that day. 2011 had about 10 weddings. 2012 had 18. 2013 had 21.

This year I have 26 weddings with one more contract outstanding. My median charge for an average wedding package including an engagement shoot (1 hour, with digital files) and 8 hours of wedding coverage (two shooters with digital files) is $3,400 + tax.

But I worked my way up there. I know some people want instant business growth, and it doesn't happen, so they quit. I'm not that guy. I love what I do. And being so self-critical of my work, I'm constantly driven forward to try new things and experience new moments. It keeps me sane.

As many will say, be prepared to do 90% emailing, phone calls, meetings, sales, book keeping, website design, and photo editing and delivery, and 10% shooting. But that's the nature of running a business. People become police officers to catch bad guys, and they end up writing tickets and filling out reports. Remember to have a sense of direction, and a sense of reality. Knowing where you're coming from, and what you need to get where you want, but not expecting it like you're entitled to it will help you keep a level head, and help your business be successful.

For us, the key to successes have been:

-Keep a day job while you grow.
-Buy gear - don't rent. Buying gear is the same as renting it 8-10 times. If you plan on renting 8-10 times, just buy.
-The first year or two we invested all the money back in the business. We didn't start taking a real profit until last year.
-Under-promise and over-deliver. Don't tell someone a week and deliver in a month. Tell them a week and deliver in 2 days.
-Making friends with other photographers. Sure, some are d-bags and shady business people. But some aren't. And no one can be in two places at once. Refer to them when you're booked, and they'll do the same for you.
-Keep content current. My website has a few outdated images, but my blog and Facebook are kept updated weekly.
-Respond timely. No email should go more than 24 hours without a good reason why (you're sick, you're busy shooting, or your on vacation).
-Be honest. About pricing structure, about how you shoot. Don't promise what you can't do. If someone asks you for a type of shot you don't do, or don't know how, don't agree to it. Be real.
-Keep accurate books, and keep all business licenses, insurance, etc. in compliance with local government. We did everything right, but found out we owed a ton in backed sales tax, and it almost put us out of business. Contact local authorities and check with state and federal regulations.

Rambling galore, but there you go.



Mar 27, 2014 at 12:52 PM
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