p.2 #1 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
carstenw wrote:
Well, I think the keyword is "überwiegend", i.e. nothing Zeiss-badged is designed exclusively by Sony. That would make sense, otherwise why the Zeiss badge?
Zeiss badge seems like it's going the way of the THX badge, pay enough money and you can slap it on stuff. Look at all the consumer zooms with the Zeiss badge.
But to be honest, nobody should really care. It's a meaningless badge for consumer goods. Who do you think is better skilled at designing large industrial production consumer goods at a set price point, Zeiss or Sony?
I would trust that Sony designers are more experienced and have far more background in producing designs that can be made for the money they have to deal with, just a couple of dollars sometimes for phone cameras which are also Zeiss branded. I'm sure Zeiss is much more skilled in producing uber expensive optics for cinema or scientific uses with very high per unit costs. Completely different specialties.
A five star Master Sushi chef would be lost and highly ineffective in an industrial kitchen designed to pump out thousands of meals per hour while the same chef could produce one of a kind creations in other settings.
p.2 #2 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
Phillip Reeve wrote:
Thats not correct. Write Zeiss an E-Mail and ask about it and they will tell you that some lenses are designed by Zeiss, some by Sony.
From what I understand, even if they are Sony originated designs anything carrying the Zeiss name has a fair amount of Zeiss design input (even if it is a supporting role to a primarily Sony-designed optical formula). This is significantly different from just attaching the Schneider name to Pentax designs which had been in production by Pentax for a significant amount of time, as all K-mount Samsung/Schneider lenses were.
p.2 #3 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
I would kind of prefer it if Zeiss lenses were made by Zeiss and Leica lenses were made by Leica.
These companies are taking advantage of a "mystique" built up over many years and are deliberately
misleading consumers. If they don't own the factories, or have people on site to maintain quality control, then
these lenses are nothing more then Zeiss or Leica designs if indeed they are even that!
I believe that these products should be be labled as Zeiss by Cossina or Leica by Panasonic,etc.
p.2 #5 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
FlyPenFly wrote:
I would trust that Sony designers are more experienced and have far more background in producing designs that can be made for the money they have to deal with, just a couple of dollars sometimes for phone cameras which are also Zeiss branded. I'm sure Zeiss is much more skilled in producing uber expensive optics for cinema or scientific uses with very high per unit costs. Completely different specialties.
p.2 #6 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
carlitos wrote:
I thought that the glass used in the Cosina manufactured Z* series was made by Zeiss.
That would be the glass manufacturer Schott, which is related to Zeiss, but most likely Cosina sources from whichever manufacturer can supply the glass of the desired specifications. Same for Leica.
p.2 #7 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
jim allison wrote:
I would kind of prefer it if Zeiss lenses were made by Zeiss and Leica lenses were made by Leica.
These companies are taking advantage of a "mystique" built up over many years and are deliberately
misleading consumers. If they don't own the factories, or have people on site to maintain quality control, then
these lenses are nothing more then Zeiss or Leica designs if indeed they are even that!
I believe that these products should be be labled as Zeiss by Cossina or Leica by Panasonic,etc.
I think you are mistaking the leica by panasonic lenses for the real leica lenses.
Leica lenses are made by leica (M & S system) in Germany. Look the youtube film in where they build a noctilux.
Leica and Zeiss both have their own factory's in Germany in which they build lenses. So no misleading.
Zeiss only offers a cheap line of lenses (ZE, ZF, Otus) compared to their other lenses which costwise can't be build in germany. So they let them build (by their standards) by cosina.
When the lens is build in Germany you see the prices get similar to those of leica (ZM15mm). A german made otus would reach 50 summicron APO prices.
p.2 #8 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
AhamB wrote:
That would be the glass manufacturer Schott, which is related to Zeiss, but most likely Cosina sources from whichever manufacturer can supply the glass of the desired specifications. Same for Leica.
Hoya, too, supplies glass to all the heavy hitters, including, Leica (I believe).
p.2 #9 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
I believe the Otus is made in Germany. From my underStanding, the difference between made in Germany and made in Japan is that inspection and rejection of lenses are higher, thus contributing to higher prices. The same goes for Leica.
It's so sad to see people get worked up so much over the country of origin of these lenseS instead of their performance. I would love to see Sony and Zeiss offer the FE 55 in a made in Germany sKU that cost 2.5x and see how many internet forum fans will buy the made in Germany version.
p.2 #10 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
Hoya is the largest supplier of optical glass in the world. I know for a fact that they supply certain
types of glasses to Leica as well as most of the camera makers. I think that it is more then likely
that they are at least a major supplier to Cosina. I wonder how many people would but the same lenses
if they were sold under the Cosina or Panasonic brand names? Leica itself barely breaks even. I wonder
if their Panasonic profits dissapeared if they could stay in business? We may find out if Panasonic
closes their camera business as is highly likely. I wouldn't be surprised if Zeiss sold off their camera lens
business to Cosina. That's what ELeitz Wetzlar did with Leica Camera.
p.2 #11 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
FlyPenFly wrote:
I believe almost all the lenses are made by Cosina who also makes the Voigtlander lenses on the same machines. Zeiss may contract to have extra levels of checks for QA.
Sony also produces Zeiss lenses in their own factory lines.
It seems Zeiss Germany produces a few of the high end cine lenses and possibly a few of the high end DSLR lenses although I'm not sure if anyone has verified it.
Apparently some (or all?) of the Touit lenses are made by Fuji.
p.2 #12 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
Cosina is unusual in several ways, and one is glass: they have their own foundry. That was an attractive feature to CZ when the partnership was established. I expect Cosina buys catalog glass from the majors where it make economic sense. I can't believe Cosina uses Schott exclusively for CZ-branded lenses, Stiftung notwithstanding.
I think in this case if you look at Nokia, they have no real great experience with phone camera optics, they just use contract parts with special requests. If you look at the cost breakdown of smartphone, the cameras are usually a pretty inexpensive component. But in this case with that Nokia, I would bet the camera was the major cost factor which is a pretty hard to find exception.
p.2 #14 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
Phillip Reeve wrote:
Thats not correct. Write Zeiss an E-Mail and ask about it and they will tell you that some lenses are designed by Zeiss, some by Sony.
I have sent similar enquiries to Zeiss over the years, at least 5 times, and every time I received different replies. Even at Zeiss, they don't seem to have a consensus on how to answer this question
At a time when Sony/Zeiss relationship was a bit tense, before they renewed their agreement, someone answered that they have no clues about ZA lenses and that I should ask Sony instead
As far as I'm concerned, if it walks and talks like a duck, it's a duck
p.2 #15 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
jim allison wrote:
I would kind of prefer it if Zeiss lenses were made by Zeiss and Leica lenses were made by Leica.
These companies are taking advantage of a "mystique" built up over many years and are deliberately
misleading consumers. If they don't own the factories, or have people on site to maintain quality control, then
these lenses are nothing more then Zeiss or Leica designs if indeed they are even that!
I believe that these products should be be labled as Zeiss by Cossina or Leica by Panasonic,etc.
Your rationale is quite old fashioned and difficult to apply in our days. Even in Germany, most Leica employees are not of German origin. The same goes for Mercedes Benz, BMW, and any other German made products. What if Zeiss relocated the Japanese Sony lens design team to Oberkochen, would that make it more legitimate to you? or if Zeiss lens design team moved over to Tokyo labs, should they remove the Zeiss tag?
I am sure some ZA designs were entirely designed by Sony, why not? I imagine a scenario when Sony folks contact Zeiss saying we have a great design that we are very proud of, and we would like to stick the Zeiss label on it and T* coatings. Zeiss would study the design, and excitedly call back Tokyo, saying hey guys, this design is fantastic, fully approved! Or, yeah, it is a great design, but in order to deserve the Zeiss label, you'll need to make the following modifications that we will send you by email. In other instances, Sony would call Zeiss asking to make a design within a certain price point and specifications (FL, max aperture). Or Zeiss has a great design that they think Sony can use for one of their lines. The possibilities are limitless. That's called collaboration.
p.2 #16 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
FlyPenFly wrote:
I think in this case if you look at Nokia, they have no real great experience with phone camera optics, they just use contract parts with special requests. If you look at the cost breakdown of smartphone, the cameras are usually a pretty inexpensive component. But in this case with that Nokia, I would bet the camera was the major cost factor which is a pretty hard to find exception.
p.2 #17 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
I'll tell you, there are even more companies involved in production of Zeiss products for Sony than just Sony and Zeiss. This is about branding and co-creation. But we all know that parts of Zeiss lenses and parts of Sony cameras are designed, made and tested by other companies. It's just Sony and Zeiss who decide that their brand label may be carried by a product after an intense process of cooperation in business development, cocreation of design, quality assurance measures and testing, and marketing.
Zeiss has factories, but most of them do not spit out complete assemblies. Think more of Zeiss as an R&D and marketing company that licenses other companies to make and sell their stuff. Since the 60-ies already German produced labor intensive lens production drove to the far east. Sony is much more a production company than Zeiss, but they also outsource a lot of their production. The camera conglomerates and optical companies, especially in Japan are much more complex than we often see at first sight and sometimes hard to understand how business relations are. It could be that a glass factory that produces flint or crown glass lens elements, molds and grinds them and sells their stuff with no coating to both Zeiss and Sigma, or Sony and Canon, or ...fill in what you like. These glass elements than get their patented coatings in another factory, before they are assembled in some other workshop in their mechanical tubes/barrels. It may be that only the final assembly with the rest of mechanical elements, electronic circuits and eventually camera integration is done in one assembly and end-quality assurance workshop that is under the direct supervision from Sony or Zeiss in this example.
If you make a product decomposition of a lens, instead of looking at the lens as holistic unit, you might get an idea where every step of production can be done how it could be outsourced. Even the parts of the design stage, often seen as the "black magic" phase of Zeiss lens production, is regularly outsourced to engineering companies that do the intense computer calculations for a basic lens design and a set of requirements that Zeiss has specified. The decision about where every step is done, is for a great part a rational decision on resourcing and an estimation where profit margins are the best.
p.2 #20 · Does Zeiss Actually Have Their Own Factories in Japan?
Bijltje wrote:
I think you are mistaking the leica by panasonic lenses for the real leica lenses.
Leica lenses are made by leica (M & S system) in Germany. Look the youtube film in where they build a noctilux.
Leica M lenses may currently be built in Germany, but this is not exclusively true. Some M lenses were made in Canada and at least one was made in Japan (90/4 C).
The R system lenses were made in Japan (Sigma & Minolta) and Germany. Some of the german-built lenses to japanese designs (24/2.8 was Minolta-derived).
And the Leica by Panasonic lenses are real Leica's, at least the 25, 42.5 and 45 are (the 14-50 zooms are not, IMHO). Frankly the best Summilux they make today in terms of rendering and performance is IMHO the 25/1.4 (I'm of the opinion that the 50 Summilux AA is a high performance lens with lousy rendering, yes I know this is somewhat heretical).
