Tariq Gibran wrote:
We know that some (many?) rangefinder wides perform better on Leica bodies versus what we are seeing on the A7r right now. We know Zeiss has indicated that the ZM's are not suitable and will require a re-design for the A7's (more retro-focus design which means longer). We know that the only two FE primes announced thus far are extreme retro-focus designs (the FE Sonnar 35 and 55). We know Sony has said there will not be "crazy fast" lenses for the system but "quality and light weight" lenses(we don't know what Sony considers crazy fast but the fact we did not get an F2 35mm FE is a big hint). All of these points taken together strongly point to "larger, slower or both" lenses for the A7's as compared to what's possible with Leica's digital system (kinda self evident from point #1 above). I also believe Rusty's point that that allows for designing really great new lenses at the same time (slower great lenses) but, just like with the NEX system, the lenses will have to either be proportionately large as compared to the camera bodies OR very slow. By their statements, Sony will try to keep things as small as possible with the A7 lenses to avoid NEX like criticism so that means slow wide primes (probably F4 for anything shorter than 35mm is my guess). ...Show more →
A sharp zeiss 20/4 or 18/4 would be a perfect lens for me. So I don't see that as a problem really.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
We know that some (many?) rangefinder wides perform better on Leica bodies versus what we are seeing on the A7r right now. We know Zeiss has indicated that the ZM's are not suitable and will require a re-design for the A7's (more retro-focus design which means longer). We know that the only two FE primes announced thus far are extreme retro-focus designs (the FE Sonnar 35 and 55). We know Sony has said there will not be "crazy fast" lenses for the system but "quality and light weight" lenses(we don't know what Sony considers crazy fast but the fact we did not get an F2 35mm FE is a big hint). All of these points taken together strongly point to "larger, slower or both" lenses for the A7's as compared to what's possible with Leica's digital system (kinda self evident from point #1 above). ...Show more →
Actually, it mostly just points to the fact that the bar for lens IQ has been raised, and to extract the most out of a 36MP sensor, you're going get bigger or slower lenses. Keep in mind, Leica's (and Voigtlander"s) own lenses have been growing progressively larger, to accomodate new performance expectations.
alwang wrote:
Keep in mind, Leica's (and Voigtlander"s) own lenses have been growing progressively larger, to accomodate new performance expectations.
As have Zeiss' (see Otus). More elements are required to correct aberrations that were previously considered acceptable, and lens size must increase to accommodate these elements.
alwang wrote:
Actually, it mostly just points to the fact that the bar for lens IQ has been raised, and to extract the most out of a 36MP sensor, you're going get bigger or slower lenses. Keep in mind, Leica's (and Voigtlander"s) own lenses have been growing progressively larger, to accomodate new performance expectations.
I don't think that's it -- Ron's comparison was with 24MP A7 and 18MP M9 -- and the difference in IQ certainly didn't seem to be about the change in resolution.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
....
We know that some (many?) rangefinder wides perform better on Leica bodies versus what we are seeing on the A7r right now. We know Zeiss has indicated that the ZM's are not suitable and will require a re-design for the A7's (more retro-focus design which means longer). We know that the only two FE primes announced thus far are extreme retro-focus designs (the FE Sonnar 35 and 55)....
Tariq, between black and white there're many shades of grey..
Do you realize that the FE 35/2.8 is more compact than a Biogon ZM 35/2.8 + M to E adapter ?, Of course that doesn't means that the FE 35 is a quasi-symmetrical design like a Biogon but, extreme retrofocus ? Are you serious ? Neither the FE35/2.8 nor the FE 55/1.8 would fit in a reflex; their rear elements wouldn't clear the mirror. Those aren't Biogons or Distagons but a new class of specific designs for the E mount. I expect that most wide and normal primes coming in the future from Sony, Zeiss or Sigma will be of that kind.
michaelwatkins wrote:
Just wait until the new Zeiss Brutus series comes out.
@Michael
Let's face it. The best lenses on Leica, the only FF design with short registry, have been designed for this specific task. Then came RX-1, a high-performing system, also with a specially designed lens. Touit 12 is the same for NEX 7, as are DP1, 2 and 3. I expect A7R to be the same, meaning that it will work best with specially designed lenses. Thus it will be a system that accepts interchangeable lenses, but either DSLR, or designed for it. RF will remain a bit of a crapshoot, especially in the shorter focal lengths. At the price of Leica wides, buying one without assurance that it will work well is a bit dicey IMHO.
alwang wrote:
Keep in mind, Leica's (and Voigtlander"s) own lenses have been growing progressively larger, to accomodate new performance expectations.
I don't know if that's the case. The lenses I'm aware of that have grown noticeably larger have been the super fast Voigt's and then we have slower lenses like the Leica 21mm Super-Elmar-M f/ 3.4 ASPH and the fast Leica 21mm f/1.4 Summilux-M Aspherical that is not really that huge. Do we know how those last two Leica's perform on the A7r? That 21mm Summilux-M in particular is not big at all given it's focal length and AOV and is a recent, optimized for digital M design. Does anyone expect to see a Sony or Zeiss lens for the A7's at it's combination of size, focal length, speed and performance? I highly doubt it, though to be fair, the price of that lens must be also taken into consideration.
I do suspect many will be happy with high performance, slow wides of a reasonable size and cost for the A7's in the long run...but it is a compromise of sorts.
I keep coming back to the thought that the new FE class cameras give Sony (and Zeiss) an opportunity to wipe the drawing board clean and design an entirely new line up of lenses based on high resolution sensors and sensor toppings that simply didn't exist when almost all range finder lenses were designed.
Knowing what the new target is, Sony/Zeiss can design accordingly. Not having a legacy base of users to satisfy, they can choose sensor configurations that make sense for the future instead of catering to, and probably being limited by, the past.
artur5 wrote:
Tariq, between black and white there're many shades of grey..
Do you realize that the FE 35/2.8 is more compact than a Biogon ZM 35/2.8 + M to E adapter ?, Of course that doesn't means that the FE 35 is a quasi-symmetrical design like a Biogon but, extreme retrofocus ? Are you serious ? Neither the FE35/2.8 nor the FE 55/1.8 would fit in a reflex; their rear elements wouldn't clear the mirror. Those aren't Biogons or Distagons but a new class of specific designs for the E mount. I expect that most wide and normal primes coming in the future from Sony, Zeiss or Sigma will be of that kind....Show more →
...and compare those to the size of a Leica 35mm f/2.0 Summicron M Aspherical. Zeiss traditionally use a more relaxed optical design so it's size is no huge surprise. The Leica shows what can be done on the Leica digital M system (and my point is that can't be achieved on the A7's at the same size to performance ratio). No big deal for most but I think it is an important point not to be quickly dismissed.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
...and compare those to the size of a Leica 35mm f/2.0 Summicron M Aspherical. Zeiss traditionally use a more relaxed optical design so it's size is no huge surprise. The Leica shows what can be done on the Leica digital M system (and my point is that can't be achieved on the A7's at the same size to performance ratio). No big deal for most but I think it is an important point not to be quickly dismissed.
It would be nice of Zeiss were to make the MF lenses that they have promised to not only be small and light, but to also include aperture rings. Unfortunately these lenses are still a year away and my suspicion is that they will probably not include aperture rings.
I agree absolutely, Michael. And what makes this approach appealing is that it is key to a small, lightweight, high performance camera body. Otherwise, who would need another set of lenses? But for Zeiss to spend money developping thse new lenses means they believe that this class of product has a future bright enough to make it worth their while. It also means that Sony have changed in their approach to their relationship with Zeiss. Just a couple of years back, they wouldn't let them market an alpha 50mm f:1.4 prime, lest it cost them business of Sony lenses. Today, such restrictions seem completely overturned.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
We know that some (many?) rangefinder wides perform better on Leica bodies versus what we are seeing on the A7r right now. We know Zeiss has indicated that the ZM's are not suitable and will require a re-design for the A7's (more retro-focus design which means longer).
How about completely new designs? Like the Sonnar in the RX1. It's small and you could almost get as close to the sensor with the rear element on the E mount. I don't know if that lens is "retrofocus", but it's not long, that's for sure.
We know that the only two FE primes announced thus far are extreme retro-focus designs (the FE Sonnar 35 and 55).
Are they? The exit pupil is, as I've stated several times now, at the same distance from the sensor on the FE 35, the Summicron-C 40 and the Nokton 35. Not extreme in any way.
My guess is that they designed the FE lenses with the filter stack in mind, which means they don't have to put the exit pupil too far away and make the lenses very large. I'm sure that could be done with faster and shorter lenses too, but I'm not sure it's gonna happen.
Makten wrote:
How about completely new designs? Like the Sonnar in the RX1. It's small and you could almost get as close to the sensor with the rear element on the E mount. I don't know if that lens is "retrofocus", but it's not long, that's for sure.
Duplicating the 35/2 Sonnar on the A7's at anything close to it's size/ performance is impossible. For one, the huge rear element of the RX1's Sonnar will likely not even fit through the E-Mount and two, it is literally almost touching the sensor.
Anyway, I do suspect we will see very high performing/ slowish FE lenses if the 55 and 35's are anything to go by. I'm all for it...I'm just not going to kid myself that there will be anything like that RX1 lens available (at it's performance level) that is not HUGE when mounted on an A7. Sony has certainly made huge strides with their recent Zeiss branded lenses (RX1 and both FE Primes).
Slightly offtopic, but I was wondering: how do you like the 12mm Touit now that you've owned it for some time? There's not a lot of talk about the lens and not many people seem to be using it, but it still interests me.
I really like it, Jochen. It is not very large or heavy, if you consider it is a f:2.8 lens. AF works well enough (it does change composition as it focuses, which can be off-putting). Sharpness wide open is not the absolute greatest, so I tend to use stopped down one stop, where it is super-sharp (for the FL, that is). The balance of colours and contrast with the NEX 7 sensor is a delight, as is the amount of small detail. It seems to me to be much better suited to this camera than the ZM line, of which I own 2 (ZM 18 and 35 f:2.0).
Actually, I intend to use it in crop mode on my A7R, as a 18mm (or less if the image circle happens to be just a bit wider than APS-C), and think it is a great solution for WA for now on my new camera.
My guess that an 18-to-21mm f:3.8 "a la Touit" for FF would be just wonderful and is quite feasible for Zeiss.
Let's face it. The best lenses on Leica, the only FF design with short registry, have been designed for this specific task. Then came RX-1, a high-performing system, also with a specially designed lens. Touit 12 is the same for NEX 7, as are DP1, 2 and 3. I expect A7R to be the same, meaning that it will work best with specially designed lenses. Thus it will be a system that accepts interchangeable lenses, but either DSLR, or designed for it. RF will remain a bit of a crapshoot, especially in the shorter focal lengths. At the price of Leica wides, buying one without assurance that it will work well is a bit dicey IMHO....Show more →
Very well said, Philippe. The offset microlenses on the A7R were actually designed for best performance with FE lenses, not Leica. In fact, Sony never had RF lenses in mind when they designed these cameras. Any lens that works well is just a happy accident.
My guess is that it is also a clever way for Sony to generate buzz at a launch where, to be honest they have but one kit zoom and one prime on offer. And it seems to be working. Look at how few people are lambasting Sony for paucity of lenses...
philber wrote:
My guess is that it is also a clever way for Sony to generate buzz at a launch where, to be honest they have but one kit zoom and one prime on offer. And it seems to be working. Look at how few people are lambasting Sony for paucity of lenses...
Hope Springs Eternal...for those basking in the glow of an exciting new camera release.
It's small and you could almost get as close to the sensor with the rear element on the E mount. I don't know if that lens is "retrofocus", but it's not long, that's for sure.