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Archive 2013 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless

  
 
Samuli Vahonen
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p.119 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I'm astonished about all the hype about A7(r) after shooting the battery empty two times...

I started getting frustrated to Canon/Nikon somewhere around 2009 since they did just more same, and didn't bring anything new, just always more megapixels or higher high ISO. A7(r) was finally something new to market, got also me interested (assumed better low ISO performance and smaller size&weight than 5DmkII). After the shock of rather crappy usability of A7 I actually now appreciate much more Canon/Nikon than I have done for many many years. Things which I have taken for granted since 2003 just aren't there in A7 to my surprise. Wednesday I shoot only handhold and was very disappointed, but on Thursday I feel more positive after shooting mostly from tripod. When camera is firmly in tripod, I found it's much better to use.


My operation, usability and ergonomics comments regarding A7+Sonnar T* 2.8/35 this far:

Pros...
  1. Live view from monitor and specially EVF image quality - haven't seen how it works in good light, I have had crappy, crappier and crappiest light here and enjoyed using due to excellent live view implementation.
  2. Customization - buttons and operation can be customized in very many ways, much more flexible what I'm used with Canon's
  3. Customization - the Fn menu can be customized as one wishes
  4. Autofocus enjoyable to use (after setting it only to focus with center of image - all the modes where camera tries to select where to focus, it never agreed with me...). At least 2.8/35 focused very accurately and plenty fast in the crappy light I had available.
  5. Even I find A7 awkward to hold (see cons list below) I was able to get sharp pictures handhold&EVF 1/50s constantly, but 1/30s success rate wasn't high enough for me ever to bother again (maybe with BIG lens like 1.4/35 it might work, have to try once I get Metabones). Analyze based to JPGs, but I would assume motion blur can be seen from JPGs.
  6. Custom white balance implementation - excellent, easy spot setting of "gray" and assignation to one of the 3 custom WBs, and it sets it to that one into which you save the custom WB.
  7. White balance settings generally, I liked the menu/dialog/whatever-you-call it and previewing of WB
  8. 2.8/35 manual focus feeling was best I have felt from focus by wire lens, not same level as ZE/ZF/Leica but not bad either.
  9. Lens mounts very tightly to camera, absolute zero play in the lens.
  10. Wide open very small vignetting - I hope it's the sensor and not 2.8/35. I hate vignetting and it makes me avoid largest aperture of lenses.
  11. Weight and weight distribution with 2.8/35
  12. The space this combo takes when I will put it to my camera bag with all other equipment. Felt weird to use my tiny Domke shoulder bag and have plenty of room.
  13. 3 dials - can set shutter speed, aperture and ISO directly


Cons...
  1. Shutter release button operation - very unreliable, many times I tried to take photo and it never took the photo (in 2s timer mode), Or took photo when I assumed I was half pressing the shutter to get rid off the focus magnification.
  2. Shutter release button position - awkward, hand has to be turned to angle getting index finger to button
  3. Sluggishness - many operations are slow and for example if camera goes to sleep waking up may takes sometimes really long (coldness MAY have contributed to this, it has been between -2C and -9C here yesterday and today, however same sluggishness can be experienced inside as well). Also it seems that it has same bug as A850, when image is writing to card you can't do anything - really annoying to see in screen that image failed and I could remove it but camera won't allow me to do it.
  4. Awkward size&holding in hand - I had to put camera strap to camera when I shoot close to river bank because it was very uncomfortable to hold and I actually was afraid of dropping camera. With any EOS camera I feel always comfortable to carry camera without any straps onehanded. My glove size usually is 10, so I have medium or slightly smaller than medium male hand.
  5. Operation of camera with gloves = impossible (tried first thin leather gloves and then very thin fabric gloves and finally gave up, and shoot barehand and when not shooting had VERY mittens which can take easily -30C to warm he fingers)
  6. Buttons generally - in addition to shutter button the general feeling of buttons is weird, can't get clear confirmation did I press the button or not. Some buttons (like up, down, left, right in rear bottom dial) are way too sensitive.
  7. Exposure bracketing for HDR shooting: As it is I can't shoot HDR with this camera without wired remote control (Sony RM-VPR1) except in summer at midday. And even with remote it's still far from optimal. Some stupid idiot has combined bracketing to same menu where timer, continuos shooting etc. are located. Due to this it's not possible to make camera shoot with 2s/10s timer automatically all 3-5 exposures at once. In addition to this one can select between "0.3EV 3 images", "0.6EV 3 images", "1EV 3 images", "2EV 3 images", "3EV 3 images". I have always found that best setting for HDR is 1.3EV 3 images or 1.7EV 3 images - this is for HDR-style what I use, which doesn't indicate to viewer it's HDR, but looks normal photo. For sure "2EV 3 images" and "3EV 3 images" are OK for the "candystore with strong colors and haloes and look like 3 year old would have lightpainted the candystore"-look. I understand that same crap has been used for years in NEX-cameras, but why in earth this crap was copied when everything else is so well customisable. For people who don't know; in Canon 5DmkII this works so that amount of bracketing can be set between 0.3EV and 2EV by user. And when shoot with 2s/10s timer in live view camera takes all 3 photos with 5FPS speed --> you can do HDRs even from moving subjects! Nikon has some more options e.g. possibility to use 5 or 7 exposures, but I'm not sure can it take the shots as quick and without banging the mirror.
  8. Multiconnector - if I compare this to remote control plug in Canon EOS cameras, I see very potential failure point here. And both of my 5DmkII have taken slight damage to connector even Canon implementation is much more durable than Sony's. It seems that it takes one strong pull from remote control cable and the connector is done, or even the board in which the connector is located inside camera.
  9. Multiconnector - internal battery charging. Even I could charge all batteries in external chargers camera still needs to be remembered to be charged from time to time due to the internal battery. If one damages the multiconnector with remote control wire on field, then there is no way to charge the internal battery ever anymore => date would need to be entered every time battery is changed and other issues.
  10. When viewing image one has to switch view to the histogram view with DISP to see blown parts flashing. In Canon user can setup flashing on/off so it can be seen in fullsize image without twiddling with display modes back and forth.
  11. EV-scale in bottom of EVF is from -5 to +5, but only -2 to +2 exposure is shown and of more over or under then it's just flashing -2 and +2 to indicate it can't show it (in M-exposure mode)


Can't comment image quality since I can't open RAW files yet. JPGs are useless for image quality estimation.



My settings:
- focus mode: manual (to AF when I want and not when camera wants...)
- live view display: setting effect OFF (to be able to focus wide open)
- disabled: lens correction, vignetting, whatever there was this kind of things
- disabled: high ISO noise reduction
- enabled: long exposure noise reduction (=black frame subtraction)
- monitor: either showing the screen with all possible settings or turned off
- DISP for finder: No Disp. Info & Level
- DISP for monitor: No Disp. Info. & Level & For viewfinder

Button assignments (I shoot usually M-mode):
- front dial: shutter speed
- rear top dial: aperture
- rear bottom dial: ISO
- AF/MF button: AF activation
- C1: Aperture preview (hoping this would do something, lens seems to be in shooting aperture all the time)
- C3: monitor on/off
- button in middle of rear bottom dial: focus zooming

Samuli



Dec 05, 2013 at 05:43 PM
mcbroomf
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p.119 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


There are RC versions of ACR and LR that will allow raw conversion, not sure what you're using.

Mike



Dec 05, 2013 at 06:23 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.119 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


mcbroomf wrote:
There are RC versions of ACR and LR that will allow raw conversion, not sure what you're using.

Mike

Aperture - so it needs support to Mac OS X. I also use dcraw.c, Raw Photo Processor, RawTherapee etc. but haven't checked if A7 support has been added yet. For some reason or another the Sony software didn't work, just crashes on 10.8.5.

Samuli



Dec 05, 2013 at 06:26 PM
itai195
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p.119 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I have an A7 in hand with the FE 35/2.8 to try it out this weekend. I have to say, first impression is that the build quality seems quite nice but some of the buttons feel a bit difficult to press. Kind of similar to the E-M5 in that there are a couple buttons snuck in between the top of the LCD and top plate, and they're not easy to press.

I also continue to be annoyed with Sony not providing an external battery charger.

Overall though it feels pretty nice in the hand and I'm excited to try it out!



Dec 05, 2013 at 07:00 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.119 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


itai195 wrote:
I have an A7 in hand with the FE 35/2.8 to try it out this weekend. I have to say, first impression is that the build quality seems quite nice but some of the buttons feel a bit difficult to press. Kind of similar to the E-M5 in that there are a couple buttons snuck in between the top of the LCD and top plate, and they're not easy to press.


Agreed, the "playback" button is really annoyingly placed.



Dec 05, 2013 at 07:15 PM
snapsy
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p.119 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Just got my A7R. The shutter is ridiculously loud. The youtube video comparing the A7R to the 1D Mark IV was about right - it showed the two about equal in db.


Dec 05, 2013 at 08:04 PM
itai195
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p.119 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


After firing off a few shots, I now understand (a) why people are complaining about the shutter sound (is the A7R even louder than the A7?) and (b) why there's a setup thread. This is a complicated little camera.


Dec 05, 2013 at 08:17 PM
rioni
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p.119 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Now that everyone is getting their A7's, I wonder when those horribly dated RX1's will hit sub 1500 used. They have that weird 35mm lens that can't be removed like the new high tech A7. I've been waiting a year so I guess I can wait abit longer



Dec 05, 2013 at 08:17 PM
dennishh
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p.119 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


The "shutter is ridiculously loud" is a personal preference that should be taken into consideration when purchasing a camera. For me it is a signal to the clients and models that I have successfully captured another amazing image! In a way it is proclaiming this is a camera to be reckoned with like the sound of a formula One racer hitting 200 mph down the straight away. It's still less loud than my D800.


Dec 05, 2013 at 08:19 PM
darrellc
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p.119 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Agree with Samuli regarding the plethora of usability issues with the Sony A7/R (I have the A7). I shot with my OM-D EM1 today and the differences are pretty shocking. But I had a Nex 5n and 7, and have an RX1, so am quite accustomed to it. It is pretty much a process of acclimation, and accepting some of the limitations and friction of using the Sony devices. Fortunately the IQ/size ratio makes these relatively minor nuisances worth it. But photography is just a hobby for me. I can't imagine using the Sony mirrorless products in any kind of professional capacity except fine art or other situations where timeliness is not critical. I think the EM1 and the A7s are a nice complement to each other. Glad I have both!


Dec 05, 2013 at 08:21 PM
snapsy
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p.119 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


dennishh wrote:
The "shutter is ridiculously loud" is a personal preference that should be taken into consideration when purchasing a camera. For me it is a signal to the clients and models that I have successfully captured another amazing image! In a way it is proclaiming this is a camera to be reckoned with like the sound of a formula One racer hitting 200 mph down the straight away. It's still less loud than my D800.


Sadly for me the sound means I've taken another photograph of my dog



Dec 05, 2013 at 08:32 PM
JaKo
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p.119 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


dennishh wrote:
The "shutter is ridiculously loud" is a personal preference that should be taken into consideration when purchasing a camera. For me it is a signal to the clients and models that I have successfully captured another amazing image! In a way it is proclaiming this is a camera to be reckoned with like the sound of a formula One racer hitting 200 mph down the straight away. It's still less loud than my D800.


I just compared it to D800E and it's... different, but not necessarily quieter. However, it doesn’t really matter because I completely agree with you on the shutter sound; I DO want to hear when shutter is fired. It's an audible indication to the shooter and often to subjects. In this electronic day and age I hope Sony and others can come up with iShutter or whatever it may be called, app for selectable shutter sounds, just like cell phone rings.

In fact, did you try to disable or lower audio volume on your A7R and re-check shutter sound? 

http://www.kozera.ca/photos/images/_DSC0136_640.jpg






Dec 05, 2013 at 08:48 PM
lostinjapan
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p.119 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I upgraded to DXO Optics Pro 9.1 this morning and compared the results from my A7r to Iridient, and a converted DNG(using the adobe beta release) then processed in LR 5.2. So far the think the sharpest and most detailed results have come out of DxO. My only complaint is the lack of localized adjustments. I am hoping the official LR 5.3 release will improve things a little bit. Sorry at work at the moment and can't easily upload samples.

Ryan



Dec 05, 2013 at 09:06 PM
miklar
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p.119 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


lostinjapan wrote:
I upgraded to DXO Optics Pro 9.1 this morning and compared the results from my A7r to Iridient, and a converted DNG(using the adobe beta release) then processed in LR 5.2. So far the think the sharpest and most detailed results have come out of DxO. My only complaint is the lack of localized adjustments. I am hoping the official LR 5.3 release will improve things a little bit. Sorry at work at the moment and can't easily upload samples.

Ryan


Interesting, I looked at this program and am very interested to hear and see more of your results.
Cheers



Dec 05, 2013 at 09:19 PM
dennishh
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p.119 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Great shot JaKo, love the tones and color gradations. Kind of reminds me of the 120 Ektachrome that came out of that ridiculously loud Hasselblad 500 EL! Many think Sony made a mistake with the shutter on the A7r, but at the same time they might have inadvertently overcome one of the biggest future criticisms of the A7r. It's not a professional camera because it's too small will be battle cry of the critics. I am sure that the sound of the shutter should go a long way in convincing naysayers and clients that it is a real professional camera. If that doesn't do it then surely the quality of the images will.


Dec 05, 2013 at 10:28 PM
rodizzle33
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p.119 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Testing the A7R with my ZF.2 Lenses, so far handling the camera I don't think the build is quite on par with the RX-1. And yes the Shutter is Loud compared to the D800. I am just happy with the fact I can use focus peaking and focus assist with my ZF lenses


Dec 05, 2013 at 10:33 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.119 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Metabones (dumb) Nikon F adapter arrives tomorrow. Yay, I get to resurrect a pile of old lenses!

This morning I wandered around in -2C weather, wore my standard thin wool liner gloves the entire time, had zero problems handling the camera. Mucked about with the camera for several hours, still have half a battery charge left.



Dec 06, 2013 at 12:54 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.119 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Sony Q&A: What’s it take to change the game?
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/12/04/sony-interview-what-does-it-take-to-change-the-camera-game
The man behind all of these products is Kimio Maki, and he's the senior general manager of the Digital Imaging Business Group at Sony Corp. Imaging Resource publisher Dave Etchells had a chance to sit down with him at the recent PDN PhotoPlus Expo, and it proved to be a very interesting interview indeed.



Dec 06, 2013 at 02:40 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.119 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


James Duncan Davidson turns his A7 camera cap into a pinhole lens.

http://jdd.io/post/69080476163

Examples:

http://jdd.io/post/69027899807

I smell a new Sony A7/r thread coming up... but maybe we could generalize it and just call it Pinhole Photography (probably is an old one around here somewhere).



Dec 06, 2013 at 02:44 AM
ulrikft2
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p.119 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Have anyone tried Pen-F lenses on the A7(R)?


Dec 06, 2013 at 03:13 AM
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