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Archive 2013 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

sflxn
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p.3 #1 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

I think it depends on your perspective. If you're looking for a general purpose camera, you'll compare the two from that perspective. If you're looking for a street camera, you'll compare the two from a street shooter's perspective. It's not to say that the RX100 cannot be used for street shooting or the GR cannot be used for general purpose shooting. Any camera can be used for either purposes. However, each camera is design with a purpose in mind that may favor one style of shooting over others. In much the same vein, Leica RF can be used for general purpose shooting and even macro, but most Leica shooters are probably using it for street shooting.

When I was debating on the GR, I first looked at the Coolpix A. The Coolpix A definitely makes better looking color photos and had the Nikon menus I was accustomed to. There were long threads on dpreview when the GR was first released discussing the GR's muted colors and a lot of analysis as to why the Coolpix was producing much, much better color images. I tried both. What made me decide to buy the GR over the Coolpix A were the BW, snap focus feature, configurable buttons, and comfortable grip. It just feels right in my hand. The ability to snap with hyperfocal distance and control everything with one hand made this camera a joy. Initially, I thought I would prefer the Nikon two hand approach to configuring the camera, but after using the GR, I changed my mind. I already have my NEX and Nikon DSLR for general purpose shooting. The GR became my go with me everywhere camera that I can whip out to take fast shots. I wouldn't want to convince everyone that the GR is perfect for them. For what I was looking for at the time, it was the most perfect camera I could find.

I think both cameras are pretty great. I am pretty shocked by the narrow DOF that the RX100 can produce. I would just hesitate trying to compare both cameras for every style of shooting. I know most internet forums like to compare certain aspects of IQ and characteristics of lenses over aspects of handling. For me, handling is as important as IQ and lens. Almost any modern camera will take great images. The question is how does it feel when you use it. Does it make you happy when using it and can you get good results with it?

Aug 08, 2013 at 02:03 PM

Kit Laughlin
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p.3 #2 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

millsart wrote:

Good images from the camera, and I've seen plenty from all those models, are the results of simply being a great photo. Great light, great subject, great framing etc.

My girlfriend has this expression she uses when I am talking about technical things, like we do here; she puts up a hand and says (like the Gary Larson cartoon): "I'm full!"**

But she can see a good image every time. Content triumphs over everything, and I loved your example about shooting your mailbox flag.

I was playing with the V1 last night (even considering using it as a B roll video camera on some shoots); it is a remarkable little camera�so I am going to get that fast 18mm lens for it.

I just wish Ricoh would come out with a 45-50mm EFOV version, because that really would be a perfect camera for me to have with me all the time, but I just do not see the world at 28mm. Everything else is spot on.

-------
The cartoon, copyrighted, shows a kid with his hand up saying, "May I be excused; my brain's full!"

Edited on Aug 09, 2013 at 04:59 PM · View previous versions

Aug 08, 2013 at 05:10 PM

cjrpostma
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p.3 #3 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

Going back to the mailbox example, which is a great example, this is exactly the problem with owning a "nice" camera. One can easily make technically "nice" images.

I've only been into photography for two years and the first month of that I was just so pleased that I could take my 5D Mk II and 85 1.2L II and make shallow depth of field portraits. After a month of that though, I was bored out of mind with shallow depth of field. It is easy to take such a picture and get 50 likes on Facebook but most people that don't study photography don't have the sense to see that it is a shitty picture. I'm not saying shallow depth of field should never be used, just that it is actually hard to do it well and you need a good subject if that subject is going to be the only thing in focus in your frame.

So, I never want to see a picture of just a mailbox in someone's front yard with everything else out of focus, even if it is 200 MP from a large format camera with the nicest lens ever produced. It is a boring subject and a boring photograph. Yet, the forum is full of images just like this.

Wouldn't it be better if instead you were walking around your lawn and decided to look for a more interesting composition or thing to shoot. Or, walk down the street and find some interesting people or a situation, etc. I don't understand staying inside a house or the confines of a yard to take pictures of boring subjects.

Again, I have been guilty of this and I'm not trying to be confrontational but the more I learn about photography and understand the reasons I like certain photographs, the less I care about gear, sharpness, etc.

Aug 08, 2013 at 06:43 PM

mspnyc
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p.3 #4 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

I too have been following this thread with great interest (thanks for starting it, millsart) since I'm looking for an always-with-me pocket camera for both urban landscapes and pictures of my 20-month old son. I've had a tough time deciding between the GR and RX100, as I love the IQ and handling of the GR, but can't help but think the slower AF and 28mm FL are going to be too limiting when photographing kids--the need to get closer to your subject might not work well here. Judging from your insights millsart, it seems like the RX100's IQ is surprisingly close to the GR's, and the flexibility of the zoom lens will better suit my particular needs. I'll just have to get a Franiec grip so I can hold the darn thing. If anyone thinks I'm overlooking anything, please chime in. (For what it's worth, I also have a Sony NEX-5N and will be replacing a beloved Panasonic LX-3 that's not quite pocketable enough.) Thanks.

Aug 08, 2013 at 09:23 PM

millsart
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p.3 #5 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

Kit Laughlin wrote:
millsart wrote:

My girlfriend has this expression she uses when I am talking about technical things, like we do here; she puts up a hand and says (like the Gary Larsen cartoon): "I'm full!

But she can see a good image every time. Content triumphs over everything, and I loved your example about shooting your mailbox flag.

I was playing with the V1 last night (even considering using it as a B roll video camera on some shoots); it is a remarkable little camera�so I am going to get that fast 18mm lens for it.

I just wish Ricoh would come out with...Show more →

I got the 18.5 1.8 for my v1 last week, it's quite the excellent lens (along with the 6.7-13mm) and handles great on the v1, just a perfect size, focuses ultra fast, and actually gives you a little bit of DoF control, not a ton, its no "cream machine" as they say, but enough to look pretty good, and obviously the 1/16,000th shutter speed on the v1 means you can shoot it wide open during the sunniest of days.

Aug 08, 2013 at 09:30 PM

Kit Laughlin
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p.3 #6 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

@mspnyc: Over on the RX100 thread, someone posted shots of a leather-like covering for the RX100; that would help. I had the Freniac grip on my RX, and it worked beautifully. Kind of sorry I sold it now...

@millsart: thanks for that; I will get one.

Aug 08, 2013 at 09:33 PM

millsart
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p.3 #7 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

I got the leather grip on my RX100, just the bottom section, it works really well IMHO, and looks cool.

I think the grip works too (Sony has a $15 version of it FYI) but I've never tried it. I think it would work just as well, if not better, but the leatherette looks so good.

Aug 08, 2013 at 09:53 PM

aleksanderpolo
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p.3 #8 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

Found another comparison in RAW:

http://streetca.wordpress.com/2013/05/26/the-ricoh-gr-continued-sony-rx100/

By the way, if this will be your only camera and you need video for the kids, forget about Ricoh. I cannot help but think that perhaps a EPL5/EPM2 + 14/2.5 and 45/1.8 would serve you better.

mspnyc wrote:
I too have been following this thread with great interest (thanks for starting it, millsart) since I'm looking for an always-with-me pocket camera for both urban landscapes and pictures of my 20-month old son. I've had a tough time deciding between the GR and RX100, as I love the IQ and handling of the GR, but can't help but think the slower AF and 28mm FL are going to be too limiting when photographing kids--the need to get closer to your subject might not work well here. Judging from your insights millsart, it seems like the RX100's IQ is surprisingly...Show more →

Aug 08, 2013 at 11:38 PM

millsart
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p.3 #9 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

Decent article, only issue I have with it is that on a 1" sensor, f8 is already well into diffraction territory.

Reason you'd stop down to F8, on the GR, or any camera really, is because you want the DoF, HOWEVER, on the smaller sensor RX100, you don't need to stop down as much, and frankly even on the GR you don't really have as its just an 18mm lens after all.

So I think if you wanted a more realistic test, I'd probably do something like F3.5 on the RX100 and F5.6 or so on the GR as it would be a bit more how one actually uses them. Obviously that gives a little edge to the smaller sensor, but so what, that is how they'd really be used. (aside from the fact that I can't see wanting to shoot at anything less than wide open on either camera if it meant needing ISO3200 to do so)

Again, if you wanted an apples to apples comparison, then yes, setting them both the same makes sense, as we can see the performance in equal terms, but they are different cameras so its not apples to apples.

It would be like testing a sports car vs a pickup truck in handling and since the truck weights so much more, adding a ton of bricks in the backseat of the sports care. Sure they weight the same now, but the whole point of the sports car is its lightweight.

That is why when I was using them, I shot the RX100 wide open at f1.8 and the GR at f2.8 for night shots. Not totally fair, but if I'm shooting in low light, and I've got the ability to open a lens further, naturally your going to do so, who wouldn't right ?

I mean if the GR had a f1.8 lens as well, darn well I bet people would shoot it like that (and darn well it would be even harder to find in stock because that would be AWESOME having a f1.8 APS-C camera that fits into a pocket!)

Aug 08, 2013 at 11:56 PM

aleksanderpolo
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p.3 #10 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

I think he might be testing the RX100 because the lens is not particularly sharp across the field in large aperture? I saw comments from Ming Thein (don't remember where it was, might be his comment on the GR review?) and Lloyd Chambers:

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130805_2-ReaderComment-which-camera-for-backcountry.html

Hey, when is your pixel peeping RAW comparison coming?

EDIT: Found it, he had a few comments on the RX100's lens relative to GR, but no direct comparison that I know of
http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/05/07/battle-of-the-28mm-compacts-ricoh-gr-vs-nikon-coolpix-a/#comments

Edited on Aug 09, 2013 at 12:10 AM · View previous versions

Aug 09, 2013 at 12:01 AM

Emacs
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p.3 #11 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

RX100 isn't any more reliable than a smartphone: lack of proper DOF scale and inablity to set hyperforcal distance quickly makes it quite unpredictable (the same for the RX1). The GR is much better in this aspect: once you want to do some street shooting, it is is a superior tool, thanks to snap focusing and DOF indication. There will be a little difference in shooting architecture, cats and leafs on the bokeh background though, but it is quite limited usage, don't you think?

Aug 09, 2013 at 12:06 AM

aleksanderpolo
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p.3 #12 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

On the other hand the GR is also limited on the tele end :P

That said I had some fun time chasing down my kids and snap focusing them, I consider this focusing by foot.

Aug 09, 2013 at 12:16 AM

millsart
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p.3 #13 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

DoF scales etc are well and good in theory, and I certainly don't mind having them, but in reality, I can't say I've ever really found them that useful, or frankly even bothered to look at them when actually out shooting.

Take my Fuji X100 for example, that camera had a DoF/focus scale on it, which was well implemented, HOWEVER, it was so conservative is really proved useless.

Did that ever actually affect my shooting though ? Nope. Slow AF, "aperture dance", parallax and other things about the camera certainly did, but the scale, while something I might of wanted to be improved, never cost me a shot.

If I was shooting in low light, or wanted to isolate the subject best I could, I'd shoot at f2.0

IF I wanted to shoot a scenic and wanted everything in focus I'd shoot at f8

If I wanted to shoot a group of people and make sure everyone is in focus, I'd shoot at f4.

If its not perfect, who cares really. Who am I shoot this stuff for ? Myself.

On my iPhone, I've got countless apps that can tell me DoF for any sensor size, hyperfocal distances etc.

Honestly never once have I been out shooting and bothered to consult one of them.

I don't know know if I'm alone in that, bu I just don't like having to stop an look at a table or graphic when I'm shooting.

Might be a nice learning tool for a beginner, but after 10 or 15 years shooting, you just kind of do it by second nature I think.

I don't use a light meter either. I own a nice Sekonitc one, but when I set up my studio lights, I just can pretty much ballpark where they need to be depending on if I'm shooting a headshot or a group.

I take a shot, I take a look on the LCD and adjust a little if needed.

I could be technical, get out my flash meter, try to get it my ratio's perfect, but in the real world, no one cares about lighting ratio's I've found, they just want it to look good.

Again, I do like scales and such, doesn't hurt to have, but just never really found myself hindered by not having them.

Aug 09, 2013 at 12:19 AM

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p.3 #14 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

millsart wrote:
I take a shot, I take a look on the LCD and adjust a little if needed.
You should put it in the head, before all other reasons you wrote. Because DOF scale is made to avoid excessive adjusting: f8, distance 2.5-3m (it's instant action thanks to snapfocus) and everything is sharp enough. I do the same with my NEX-5n and Leica Super Elmar 18. With RX100 or RX1 you can't do this quickly and thus both these cameras aren't much more usable than a smartphone.

Aug 09, 2013 at 12:51 AM

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p.3 #15 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

millsart wrote:
I think they are all very comparible, because I've got all 3 (4 if you count the V1) sitting here and I still haven't been able to figure out which one I ultimately prefer. GR gave me great images and the RX100 gave me great images, just at different times and in sometimes different ways.

I found it a bit odd that I got images I like from both GR and RX100M2 too, though they seem so different on paper. I even used LR to count the number of flags and ratings assigned to each, still I can't declare a winner.

My biggest agony now is whether to get (or try) the RX1

Would I produce more good images or would RX1's larger size body and its shallower depth of field be a hindrance to good street images? It's an expensive experiment that I can't afford, even though the sales guy at Sony store encourages me to "try it out" for a month to see how much I like it. I always feel bad when returning something after using it extensively.

Aug 09, 2013 at 04:28 PM

FMTopFan
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p.3 #16 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

sflxn wrote:
I have a GR and owned the RX1 for a short time before selling it off due to handling annoyances.

What annoyances have you found? Is it mainly the snap focusing?

Aug 09, 2013 at 04:31 PM

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p.3 #17 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

aleksanderpolo wrote:
I think he might be testing the RX100 because the lens is not particularly sharp across the field in large aperture? I saw comments from Ming Thein (don't remember where it was, might be his comment on the GR review?) and Lloyd Chambers:

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130805_2-ReaderComment-which-camera-for-backcountry.html

http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/05/07/battle-of-the-28mm-compacts-ricoh-gr-vs-nikon-coolpix-a/#comments

It's weird because Lloyd says RX100 is "good mainly at 28mm" but Ming says 28mm wide "lets things down". Totally conflicting. Has anyone tested this? My RX100M2 was returned due to defect so I don't have one to test now.

Aug 09, 2013 at 04:47 PM

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p.3 #18 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

millsart wrote:
DoF scales etc are well and good in theory, and I certainly don't mind having them, but in reality, I can't say I've ever really found them that useful, or frankly even bothered to look at them when actually out shooting.

Did that ever actually affect my shooting though ? Nope. Slow AF, "aperture dance", parallax and other things about the camera certainly did, but the scale, while something I might of wanted to be improved, never cost me a shot.

If I was shooting in low light, or wanted to isolate the subject best I could, I'd shoot at f2.0
IF I...Show more →

Sorry for quoting almost the entire post, but it mirrors my shooting philosophy so precisely I have to let you know. Thanks for verbalizing it!

The only thing I would add is, when attempting to use those iphone apps, cheat sheets, light meter or scales in the past, I found my attention taken away from the scene or subjects, breaking rapport and other concentration which is far more important for getting a "good" image.

Aug 09, 2013 at 04:54 PM

fotographiq
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p.3 #19 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

Regarding the Ricoh GR: Is anyone running into the circular ring artifacts issue seen here:

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130701_2-Ricoh-GR-dynamic-range-circular-ring-artifacts.html

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130702_2-Ricoh-GR-dynamic-range-circular-ring-artifacts2.html

This appears to be an issue in underexposed RAW shots when they are pushed 2-3 stops in post.

Discussed here as well: http://www.ricohforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=10797

My Ricoh GR is charging at home (arrived this morning), so I will test this out in a few hours to see if it is an issue on my model (there is some thought that this is a batch issue, perhaps).

I have the Sony RX100, Olympus OMD EM5, Fuji X100S, and now the Ricoh GR. I am only keeping two... have a feeling it may be the Oly and Ricoh (I need something with decent AF to catch my 2 year old).

Edited on Aug 09, 2013 at 05:11 PM · View previous versions

Aug 09, 2013 at 05:02 PM

Kit Laughlin
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p.3 #20 · Ricoh GR vs Sony RX100

I believe that during 30+ years of pro shooting (my other day job over all that time) has allowed me to internalise the effects of DOF/aperture/distance from subject pretty well, too, and my experiences mirror millsart's (quoted two posts above) and I only have use DOF scales to get a rough hyperfocal distance set up. And on lenses that do not have them, then auto focussing on a spot on the ground at the needed distance has always worked for me.

BTW (@millsart) I ordered the Nikon 1 18/1.8 lens a few moments ago; and I played around with the Nikon's video yesterday on the all manual settings, and (I don't know if this is intentional, or not) by changing the Hz flicker settings, wrench menu, allows setting lowest shutter speed at 1/60�exactly perfect shutter angle for the 1080/30p video I want to shoot with it. And the output footage is very nice. Interesting times for photographers.

Aug 09, 2013 at 05:07 PM

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